Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #42

[2cents2]

My recall from the podcast is that Lia Harris and her crew arrived in Kendall on Saturday the 13 Sept. The decision not to go on the Friday was made because they thought William would/could be found. She arrived for Paul Fehons first media interview on Saturday 13th Sept.
But my recall could be wrong I will have to have another listen.

Thank you, certainly better recall than me. Sounds correct.

 

[Ms Cadfael]

Ok.
The thing with "most" whom commit unspeakable crimes against children is that usually start out life like that. There is usually a very early history of offenses that occur. I have not heard any past regarding this with the new p.o.i.
So..pls let me go off on a rabbit trail for a moment..this is All IMO/My imagination ONLY!

Your approaching your sunset years. Your dear, beloved wife of many years has just been given the worst news possible. Shes sick-very sick. Time is not on her side. As a strong, country woman, she is determined to live her life to the end.

One morning, you usher her out to the car as she prepares to go off to a club for a morning of bingo with the "girls". You peck her cheek, ask again if she's sure she's ok. She insists she is and to stop worrying! But you are worried, everyone is, even her brother has been visiting more out of concern.
She reverses out of the drive and as she drives off, in her haze of illness and meds, you see..but she doesnt notice, that she's hit something.

You run over and find to your horror what she has just run over.
You need to fix this..it was an accident..she didnt even know she did it! What do you do..how do you make it so shes not living her final days in the guilt of her accidental crime. What time is it..? You look at your watch and think "her brother will be hete soon!".
You scoop up the evidence. You run inside with it...you pace, you think..you panic.

Theres a big world out there..theres alot of dense bushland that you know like the back of your hand as you walk it everyday.

Neighbours bang on your door. They need help. Now is your excuse to travel in to that dense bushland..to hide this horrific incident. All it will do is cause your loved one such pain and regret.

All MOO.

 

[deugirtni]

Ok.
The thing with "most" whom commit unspeakable crimes against children is that usually start out life like that. There is usually a very early history of offenses that occur. I have not heard any past regarding this with the new p.o.i.
So..pls let me go off on a rabbit trail for a moment..this is All IMO/My imagination ONLY!

Your approaching your sunset years. Your dear, beloved wife of many years has just been given the worst news possible. Shes sick-very sick. Time is not on her side. As a strong, country woman, she is determined to live her life to the end.

One morning, you usher her out to the car as she prepares to go off to a club for a morning of bingo with the "girls". You peck her cheek, ask again if she's sure she's ok. She insists she is and to stop worrying! But you are worried, everyone is, even her brother has been visiting more out of concern.
She reverses out of the drive and as she drives off, in her haze of illness and meds, you see..but she doesnt notice, that she's hit something.

You run over and find to your horror what she has just run over.
You need to fix this..it was an accident..she didnt even know she did it! What do you do..how do you make it so shes not living her final days in the guilt of her accidental crime. What time is it..? You look at your watch and think "her brother will be hete soon!".
You scoop up the evidence. You run inside with it...you pace, you think..you panic.

Theres a big world out there..theres alot of dense bushland that you know like the back of your hand as you walk it everyday.

Neighbours bang on your door. They need help. Now is your excuse to travel in to that dense bushland..to hide this horrific incident. All it will do is cause your loved one such pain and regret.

All MOO.

In your scenario, wife does this unwittingly at approx 10:32am, JUST after neighbour LH arrives home with groceries (10:30am), and JUST before FD arrives home (10:35am). Would be difficult to 'hide the evidence' within a minute or three. Secondly, whatever he did with the evidence.... he sits and waits until neighbours come knocking about an hour later(?), and then sees that as his chance to 'dispose' of the evidence - but how does he exit his property with that evidence without being noticed, seeing as by then, the street is a flurry of people searching?

And then - his wife succumbs to her illness some 6 months later.. no need to protect any more.. so why not come clean with it all - it was an accident afterall?

 

[they'll get you]

Deleted

 

[Ms Cadfael]

Only husbands time is precise though. I think the others where rough "guestimates"?. And my theory Only works IF he Was the neighbour whom gave that "precise" time..im just summizing...

He wandered off and got lost in the bush without anyone spotting him..? He may have had something with him? A bag..? Did he take his car and park before entering a trail? Does his house back on to bush??

If he admits to it..not only the Police but the entire community if Kendall would want his guts for garters! They'

In your scenario, wife does this unwittingly at approx 10:32am, JUST after neighbour LH arrives home with groceries (10:30am), and JUST before FD arrives home (10:35am). Would be difficult to 'hide the evidence' within a minute or three. Secondly, whatever he did with the evidence.... he sits and waits until neighbours come knocking about an hour later(?), and then sees that as his chance to 'dispose' of the evidence - but how does he exit his property with that evidence without being noticed, seeing as by then, the street is a flurry of people searching?

And then - his wife succumbs to her illness some 6 months later.. no need to protect any more.. so why not come clean with it all - it was an accident afterall?

ve been thru hell! Who would believe him now, anyway..?

 

[Ms Cadfael]

In your scenario, wife does this unwittingly at approx 10:32am, JUST after neighbour LH arrives home with groceries (10:30am), and JUST before FD arrives home (10:35am). Would be difficult to 'hide the evidence' within a minute or three. Secondly, whatever he did with the evidence.... he sits and waits until neighbours come knocking about an hour later(?), and then sees that as his chance to 'dispose' of the evidence - but how does he exit his property with that evidence without being noticed, seeing as by then, the street is a flurry of people searching?

And then - his wife succumbs to her illness some 6 months later.. no need to protect any more.. so why not come clean with it all - it was an accident afterall?

Only husbands given time is precise though. I think the others where rough "guestimates"?. And my theory Only works IF he Was the neighbour whom gave that "precise" time..so im just summizing...

He wandered off and got lost in the bush without anyone spotting him..? He may have had something with him? A bag..? Did he take his car and park before entering a trail? Does his house back on to bush??

If he admits to it..not only the Police but the entire community if Kendall would want his guts for garters! They've been thru Hell! Who would believe him now anyway??

 

[kiwi50]

With all that, then If he WAS the neighbour whom was able to give that precise time his wife left then I sorta think..."Booyah!". Ur done, bud!
All IMO

Possibly, but if his wife went to bingo every week, they would know what time she had to leave to get to bingo on time.

 

[deugirtni]

Only husbands given time is precise though. I think the others where rough "guestimates"?. And my theory Only works IF he Was the neighbour whom gave that "precise" time..so im just summizing...

He wandered off and got lost in the bush without anyone spotting him..? He may have had something with him? A bag..? Did he take his car and park before entering a trail? Does his house back on to bush??

If he admits to it..not only the Police but the entire community if Kendall would want his guts for garters! They've been thru Hell! Who would believe him now anyway??

That's not to say that nobody saw him when he first went 'into' the bush.. it seems, from CO's report anyway, that he got lost in the bush for a couple of hours. (Where was his visiting brother-in-law at this time? Weren't they together?)

I'm only assuming here, but if someone on the street had accidentally hit such an object, wouldn't there be evidence of that on the vehicle, and wouldn't police have checked out all of the vehicles in that area for any such type of damage? (It was said that LE checked boots of vehicles, etc.)

ETA: Another issue with that scenario, is that presumably, PS would have been very shaken, to say the least... not only with the horror of what happened, but also in trying to keep his wife from knowing what she'd done, PLUS being the one to have to deal with the aftermath VERY quickly so that nobody would know... but yet he was still able, in such a short time, to find a place to put 'the evidence' where still to this day five years later, no trace has been found. That seems like it would be a difficult feat even for someone with hours to ponder and plan such a hiding place. imo.

Oops another ETA: Add onto all of the above.. he also has to act 'normal' while his guests (who presumably would know his 'normal') are visiting for that day, evening and night, and the next day until they departed.

 

[papertrail]

Ok.
The thing with "most" whom commit unspeakable crimes against children is that usually start out life like that. There is usually a very early history of offenses that occur. I have not heard any past regarding this with the new p.o.i.
So..pls let me go off on a rabbit trail for a moment..this is All IMO/My imagination ONLY!

Your approaching your sunset years. Your dear, beloved wife of many years has just been given the worst news possible. Shes sick-very sick. Time is not on her side. As a strong, country woman, she is determined to live her life to the end.

One morning, you usher her out to the car as she prepares to go off to a club for a morning of bingo with the "girls". You peck her cheek, ask again if she's sure she's ok. She insists she is and to stop worrying! But you are worried, everyone is, even her brother has been visiting more out of concern.
She reverses out of the drive and as she drives off, in her haze of illness and meds, you see..but she doesnt notice, that she's hit something.

You run over and find to your horror what she has just run over.
You need to fix this..it was an accident..she didnt even know she did it! What do you do..how do you make it so shes not living her final days in the guilt of her accidental crime. What time is it..? You look at your watch and think "her brother will be hete soon!".
You scoop up the evidence. You run inside with it...you pace, you think..you panic.

Theres a big world out there..theres alot of dense bushland that you know like the back of your hand as you walk it everyday.

Neighbours bang on your door. They need help. Now is your excuse to travel in to that dense bushland..to hide this horrific incident. All it will do is cause your loved one such pain and regret.

All MOO.

Cadaver dogs were brought in. They are highly trained dogs. They do not concentrate on the same kind of scent trail a sniffer dog does. A cadaver dog is trained to pick up on scent of a deceased person! They also pick up on human blood products.

Even if the scene had been contaminated by loads of people helping search and not treated like a crime scene a cadaver dog will still do it's job. A cleanup after such a scenario as you have put would not hide the scent a cadaver dog is trained to detect.

If there was any such evidence I am sure it would have been located.

From memory in one of the recent podcasts from Ten cadaver dog presence at scene is discussed.

I think we all need to be very careful about our 'stories' and discussions about certain individuals.

An inquest is not a trial of facts. It is inquisitorial in nature.

 

[thylacine7]

Cadaver dogs were brought in. They are highly trained dogs. They do not concentrate on the same kind of scent trail a sniffer dog does. A cadaver dog is trained to pick up on scent of a deceased person! They also pick up on human blood products.

Even if the scene had been contaminated by loads of people helping search and not treated like a crime scene a cadaver dog will still do it's job. A cleanup after such a scenario as you have put would not hide the scent a cadaver dog is trained to detect.

If there was any such evidence I am sure it would have been located.

From memory in one of the recent podcasts from Ten cadaver dog presence at scene is discussed.

I think we all need to be very careful about our 'stories' and discussions about certain individuals.

An inquest is not a trial of facts. It is inquisitorial in nature.

... and I'm not sure the timeline works either, considering how little time he was out of their sight (though of course recollection can be mistaken), allegedly between 1 and 5 minutes (reference).

The sniffer dogs lost the scent at the edge of the property (ref.), so had he crossed roads or gone into neighbouring properties, the trail would likely have extended to those areas (especially remembering that dogs' sense of smell can be up to 100,000x better than ours - ref.), and become significant at the point of any injury.

Sniffer dogs aren't perfect of course, but as above, had he been injured, especially significantly as suggested above, the scent would've exploded and likely been detectable even over a scent gap (ie scent ends, then starts again a distance away), to sensitive, trained dogs' noses.

Keep in mind initially only sniffer dogs were involved, which as you say, pick up on different things.

Cadaver dogs were brought in later in follow-up searches, and I'm not sure they even focused much on the property (though I'm sure they covered it at least in a cursory fashion), considering how heavily it had already been searched.

 

[Ms Cadfael]

Cadaver dogs were brought in. They are highly trained dogs. They do not concentrate on the same kind of scent trail a sniffer dog does. A cadaver dog is trained to pick up on scent of a deceased person! They also pick up on human blood products.

Even if the scene had been contaminated by loads of people helping search and not treated like a crime scene a cadaver dog will still do it's job. A cleanup after such a scenario as you have put would not hide the scent a cadaver dog is trained to detect.

If there was any such evidence I am sure it would have been located.

From memory in one of the recent podcasts from Ten cadaver dog presence at scene is discussed.

I think we all need to be very careful about our 'stories' and discussions about certain individuals.

An inquest is not a trial of facts. It is inquisitorial in nature.

How long after death do the cells change to the alert the dogs that a death has occured?
If WT was carried, would dogs still pick up a sent.

I think this is the place to discuss differing scenarios..it is a sleuthing site. I have made no direct accusations. Am simply looking at the details around the case we are privvy to and encouraging others to think and surmise as to what may have occured.

Much of the responses have come back to "time". Im not sure any "times" stated are completly correct.

Just MOO.

 

[thylacine7]

How long after death do the cells change to the alert the dogs that a death has occured?
If WT was carried, would dogs still pick up a sent.

I think this is the place to discuss differing scenarios..it is a sleuthing site. I have made no direct accusations. Am simply looking at the details around the case we are privvy to and encouraging others to think and surmise as to what may have occured.

Much of the responses have come back to "time". Im not sure any "times" stated are completly correct.

Just MOO.

What Cadaver Dogs Are Sniffing for When They Look for a Body | Inverse

Keeping in mind though, as I edited my post above to clarify, cadaver dogs were only part of much later, follow-up searches. Initially sniffer dogs were involved, as obviously nobody was seriously thinking of finding a body at that point, certainly not one in a state that would require cadaver dogs anyway.

 

[papertrail]

How long after death do the cells change to the alert the dogs that a death has occured?
If WT was carried, would dogs still pick up a sent.

I think this is the place to discuss differing scenarios..it is a sleuthing site. I have made no direct accusations. Am simply looking at the details around the case we are privvy to and encouraging others to think and surmise as to what may have occured.

Much of the responses have come back to "time". Im not sure any "times" stated are completly correct.

Just MOO.

Human cadaver scent can last for years. The wonderful dogs can pick up on bodies buried at great depth also. NSW police used cadaver dogs at the total benaroon location during the 2018 search as well. From memory that was included in media articles.

 

[papertrail]

What Cadaver Dogs Are Sniffing for When They Look for a Body | Inverse

Keeping in mind though, as I edited my post above to clarify, cadaver dogs were only part of much later, follow-up searches. Initially sniffer dogs were involved, as obviously nobody was seriously thinking of finding a body at that point, certainly not one in a state that would require cadaver dogs anyway.

In one of the recent podcasts there is reference to when the cadaver dog was brought in. FFC had observed the officer and dog arrival and she collected some of William's clothing and took it to the officer. He told her the clothing was not required.

That must have been close to the 12th because by Sunday 14th police had bought in homicide specialists.

I will have to relisten to get timestamp.

From memory cadaver dog handler gave evidence to Inquest.

 

[JLZ]

Hmm ... time of day, lived there how long? Must be very directionally challenged. Even I could not get lost in that bush for 2 hours

I don't think it would be that hard (to become lost). It's less than 3km to the other side of Kendall Forest and look at all the tracks marked by Google, and I think I can see smaller unmarked tracks as well. It depends how far PS went and the extent to which he'd gone exploring in the past; perhaps his daily walks followed a regular circuit and he diverged from that this time. If he was a kid living in the area I'd like to say no way he'd get lost, but I hear that even kids these days aren't necessarily that type of adventurous.

Picture source: Google Maps

 

[papertrail]

Hmm ... time of day, lived there how long? Must be very directionally challenged. Even I could not get lost in that bush for 2 hours

Sillybilly may I ask if you have any experience walking in thick bushland in Australia ...especially thick bushland in the particular Kendall region where searches were involved?

Descriptions given by experienced and highly trained police officers and emergency workers and members of the public show the particular bushland zone is extremely thick and dangerous.

Clothing worn by professional searchers was ripped. This clothing materials designed not to rip or tear!

So much so police officers and emergency services personnel were fitted with gps tracking units and accompanied members of the public to avoid people getting lost.

It is common that professional search teams are tracked by gps units because of the terrain they search in.

I think we should give Mr Savage some latitude. We do not know if there are health issues that may have contributed to him getting lost. His normal walk routine was to use a cleared track.

That bushland around the area is infested with paralysis ticks as well...He may have been infested.

Police dog handlers description of his dog's condition at the end of hours of searching brought me to tears. The dog collapsed and was infested with 40 or so ticks and required immediate life saving vetinerary treatment.

A human attacked by one tick can become very unwell in a very short period of time. These things are tiny...like specks of pepper... dizziness, nausea, loss of memory, confusion and general malaise are symptoms can last for days.

If tick is not removed professionally, illness can change to life threatening status.

That is why police and SES earch personal wear full body kit protection!

Also the area would have quite a few snakes given there were quite a few wet areas.

I think anyone that ventured into that particular bushland should receive a pat on the back with a ...job well done and sincere thankyou in typical Australian style!

 

[papertrail]

Precise timing of departure of a spouse such as being discussed tells me something was written down and recorded for a reason. People that suffer some memory or cognitive issues record in such a way. Perhaps there is history there with a certain family member that started this process and it became a habit.

Too many things are being discussed about individuals where there is currently no evidence of involvement. Being called as a witness is JUST that.

If you are a person of interest to investigators can mean theg believe you have something of interest to say.

A person observing an incident or a conversation or discussion is known as a person of interest because of what they have seen or heard is of interest.

 

[drsleuth]

Quite the coincidence that PS apparently gets lost in the bush the same day William goes missing..........what are the chances of that??

 

[papertrail]

Quite the coincidence that PS apparently gets lost in the bush the same day William goes missing..........what are the chances of that??

The chances are pretty solid in fact. A member of the public out there searching for a little boy as soon as he was told William was missing..

Because he was searching for William before all the official police and search personnel turned up after 2pm on the day. Thread 39 and 40.

<modsnip: Personalizing is not allowed.>

 

[sosocurious]

Quite the coincidence that PS apparently gets lost in the bush the same day William goes missing..........what are the chances of that??

Amazing. I wonder how his clothing held up?

 

[drsleuth]

Because he was searching for William before all the official police and search personnel turned up after 2pm on the day. Thread 39 and 40.

<modsnip: Personalizing is not allowed.>

I'm well aware of some of the details, seeing I was actually at the inquest <modsnip>

 

[papertrail]

I'm well aware of some of the details, seeing I was actually at the inquest <modsnip>

<modsnip: personalizing>

It all depends on what kind if clothing he wore. If he ventured into thick bush surrounds in his neighbourhood in shorts or light material pants he mag well have been subjected to a tick attack. Ticks thrive in lantana and reports say just how thick that bushland is with lantana!

There IS NO evidence against thus man.