AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #16

[Anita Richman]

Forgive me if it's been answered already, but has it been verified that JM was EVER staying in the house? Or are we just speculating that he was possibly staying in the house, possibly in December, then possibly kicked out?

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Alrighty Folks... unfortunately for me it's that time again to get some sleep... So time to do that one really productive thing that can help break this case wide open and aide in finding Isabel and thats get my prayers done. I have faith she is gonna be found alive, no matter how much digging we see or how bad it looks... This could all be a wild goose chase... Night Folks

Thanks, JohnQPublic!

Prayers ARE most important, raying:
And thank you for the words of encouragement regarding Isa being found alive!:seeya:

 

[Isabelle]

I can't speak for AZ, but in MD, a child of 8 may be left at home alone provided he or she is able to pick up a phone and call for help if needed.

A child of 13 is considered old enough to be left in charge of siblings under 8.

I believe Louisiana age is 13 to be left home alone. I wouldn't leave a child under the age of 15 home alone if not absolutely necessary. Not in this world!

 

[txanmom]

That is very ironic that UNCLE Justin moved out the same month cps came to their house.

The problem is that is a rumour and we do not know if he actually ever lived there, unless this has been confirmed?

 

[Nvgirl]

Please do not take this the wrong way, but I *think* I know what you are talking about, and this person also said that the reason the scanner dispatcher said "complainant will actually be the sister" was because a nun from the nearby church was the one who called 911. So I take everything she said with a huge boulder of salt.

I apologize if I am remembering the wrong person, but that was a comment on the hinky site I remember, and it was suppossedly from a local with insider scoop (it was also before the actual scanner chatter was released). JMO

Yea your prob right! I cant remember all of what i read ot all starts running together... But i do remember another weird thing about some calls that were made to 911 earlier that morning like 3 in the morning that was strange. And they shut that down after the person that was in charge of the sute told her to be quiet about going any farther in that forum and that he would contact her via email and zap the whole forum was gone :-|

 

[AZYaYa]

Wow!
CPS has previous history with the Celis family? as recently as just 5 months ago? or 4 months since Isa disappeared? :what:
That's pretty damning.

"Pacheco said he was not familiar with the details of CPS' involvement with the Celis family, but during the earlier stages of the investigation detectives had spoken to CPS workers about the agency's history with the family.

'I am not aware of why they were summoned there," he said. "I know there was a previous contact there for their agency.'

Details of CPS' contact with the family, and how the agency followed up with the report, remain unclear"

Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/local/cri...9a3-5df6-a4f1-163f280fad8f.html#ixzz1v6yyxNQN

Why is this coming out now?
I do feel like LE is slowly turning the screws now.

If this is true that Pacheco knew about CPS involvement but didn't bother to find out what it was about, he should be fired. How could it NOT be relevant?

 

[Anita Richman]

BBM

Respectfully snipped~This is a long post about a personal experience I had with CPS in a different state, skip it if you're not interested, I will tie it in w this case at the end.

Of course, they didn't, but my point is, a false accusation is awful for an innocent mommy.


If anyone actually read all that, sorry for the mini novel.

How awful! My heart was in my throat the entire post and I had tears in my eyes by the time I got to the bolded part. Thank you for sharing your personal experience, which must be such a horrible thing for you to have to remember. I hope you are able to let go of the shame that you do NOT deserve! Hugs to you, Marazul. I feel that you and I would be good friends in real life. :tyou:

 

[LisaB]

OK...here weeeeee go!! I might hate myself for bringing this up....BUT, maybe she drowned in the tub.
I'm NOT gonna go with the "sexual abuse" combined with the "drowning" thing, so don't worry, for anyone having the shakes and flashbacks from being submitted to those two words combined in one sentence last summer.

IMO, that's pretty late for kids after a baseball game...especially a 6 yo....just IMO. Have NO first hand experience...but I used to watch kids games with a friend, and it wasn't THAT late. IMO.
At any rate, if I tried to GUESS, I'm thinking a neighbor or relative notified CPS of some sort of "neglect"...or what THEY thought could be classified as that.

SC mentioned Isa said she was "tired"....MAYBE, she needed a bath, or they said she needed one. Maybe SC was supposed to be "watching" her or at least check up on her....help her out of the tub, etc.
HE said he was "watching" the baseball game and "fell asleep"....IIRC.
When he woke, he FINALLY remembered Isa....or even forgot and went to sleep.
She COULD have tried to get out of the tub herself...slipped and klunked her head...OR she COULD have fallen asleep in the tub and drowned.
Whatever it was, as we know, there's usually some "grains of truth" in peoples stories.

IMO, I believe the next door neighbor about the 6:30 voices...that could be when SC remembers Isa's in the tub, and finds her dead. Yada, yada....we know the drill....set up/make up a story about the nanny....OOOPSSS, I mean an "abductor" taking Isa.

We know CPS had been called earlier, people get scared and don't think anyone would believe it was an "accident"(oh, boy...pool/tub...potato potahto). OR, how BAD it would make SC seem....can't have THAT happen, since it seems, IMO, he'd be REALLY mortified by it in front of the community. (oy!!)
Or, that the other boys would be taken away, as well.


ETA: As far as falling asleep in the tub, I did it when I was in my teens...BUT, I was tall enough so my head didn't go under. But, weird feeling waking up in a tub full of H2O.

:twocents:
I thought putting a six-year-old in a shower was a little odd, though some people do it. Personally, my daughter was still taking baths at that age, mostly to keep the bathroom floor dry. Sergio DID make a point about showers (no risk of drowning in a shower, so that takes "drowning" off the tabel, perhaps prematurely), and recalled Isabel wearing (after the supposed shower) street clothes (her brother indicated she sleeps in pajamas) identical to what she had on at the ball game. If she had drowned, it would be true that the last thing he saw her wearing was the outfit she removed to get into the bath. If Becky was tired too, she might have sent the boys to shower first while she did Isa's hair, then turned in after running Isa's bath. As you suggested, dad may have fallen asleep watching the game and later discovered Isabel still in the tub, submerged. It has happened before.

When my daughter was 14 this almost happened to her. She was small, and slipped down into the tub and dozed off. I realized she had been in there a while and started pounding on the door and calling her name. I could not make myself open the door and look. I was scared to (at the time, she was on suicide watch) but finally did. I briefly wondered why the water was not red (thinking she was dead from having slit her wrists in the tub). She was white and still and completely submerged. I wondered how much willpower it had taken her to drown herself that way. I screamed and fell to the floor. My heart broke. She JUMPED out of the tub, embarassed, but alive. She had taken a klonopin before her bath instead of after, and it made her sleepy.

I now know EXACTLY what it would feel like to lose a child. I was lucky that the moment of absolute grief and agony was so brief, though I shook and cried for days afterward. It DID have one positive effect... my daughter saw that I love her and that losing her would destroy me. If she had any doubts about whether people cared about her, they were answered that night. Her "mental health" began to improve markedly from that day forward.

 

[Donjeta]

If this is true that Pacheco knew about CPS involvement but didn't bother to find out what it was about, he should be fired. How could it NOT be relevant?

Is he in charge of the investigation or just the department spokesperson?

 

[liz b.]

Before he was removed from their home,SC said that he wanted to " set some boundaries " for the two boys.

In my experience that expression, to set some boundaries, has to do with teaching kids to respect the personal space of others. IMO, he is saying,in a subtle way, that the two boys did not,and do not have strong boundaries.

In CPS speak, a child with "weak boundaries " or "boundary issues " will often go into another kid's room at night. Among other things.

This was quite different from SC's wanting to re-establish normal routines for the two boys, such as school and playing baseball again.

And he made this statement shortly before the NCO was put in place. Wonder why he would bring up boundary issues with regard to the two remaining kids, at that particular time ?

JMO

 

[Nvgirl]

The problem is that is a rumour and we do not know if he actually ever lived there, unless this has been confirmed?

Yes there was when i get home i will look for what i have saved but i am on my iphone and it sucks posting stuff on here.. The only thing is if it was on the hinky meter forum its gone cause they took it down, but hopefully i can find the link somewhere.

 

[laniefi]

We've discussed all of SC' s public records in the first few threads of this case.

The only things that are pending in SC's case are the two charges for dogs not licensed, not vaccinated, and two of them running loose.
I am not sure why the 2007 speeding ticket still shows as pending, an error probably.
The terminated are from 1997 (DUI) and a 1998 traffic stop.
He had another ticket in 2005.

He has nothing on public record that really relates to a child missing IMO

So his criminal case filed 4/19/2012 are related to dogs?

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Combining ideas from two different posters.

If one takes the odds on a particular investigative path via counting the number of officers involved in investigating that path, then it's clear that nonfamily abduction is rated 3-4 times more likely than a family abduction (4 officers investigating the family, 12-14 investigating nonfamily abduction).

I see your point.

But another angle is:

Looking at the ratio of # of LE to Number of potential perps.in each of these categories:

4 officers investigating family members (How many in family? 20 for a round figure? mom, dad, bros, aunts, cousins, etc.)

12 - 14 officers investigating nonfamily - community at large? (gazillion people?)

I see, from this perspective, that the relationship between officers and family much greater than relationship of officers to nonfamily.

JMO

Not set in stone.

Just another angle to think about.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

http://www.cosc.pima.gov/home.asp?include=pages/record_search.htm

http://www.jp.pima.gov/home.htm

http://cms3.tucsonaz.gov/courts/QDPS/Search/CitySearch.aspx

Here’s what I found, all Public records:
There are several different charges under Sergio David Celis and it isn't just about dogs running loose. There are also some that are pending.

I cant get them to open, spoiledmom. Would you please give a recap?

tia

 

[cluciano63]

Before he was removed from their home,SC said that he wanted to " set some boundaries " for the two boys.

In my experience that expression, to set some boundaries, has to do with teaching kids to respect the personal space of others. IMO, he is saying,in a subtle way, that the two boys did not,and do not have strong boundaries.

In CPS speak, a child with "weak boundaries " or "boundary issues " will often go into another kid's room at night. Among other things.

This was quite different from SC's wanting to re-establish normal routines for the two boys, such as school and playing baseball again.

And he made this statement shortly before the NCO was put in place. Wonder why he would bring up boundary issues with regard to the two remaining kids, at that particular time ?

JMO

At the time I assumed he was talking about boundaries re: the media, etc. although they were never really in the media spotlight so that does not make much sense either...

 

[Prof]

So his criminal case filed 4/19/2012 are related to dogs?

Yes, those are the charges regarding dogs ..8 charges actually listed in two cases. ending in 22 and 20
3 charges of no proof of license
3 charges of no proof of vaccination
2 charges of dogs at large = misdemeanor charges that carry fines and possible jail time

The original court document listed the incident on 4/13
The charges were filed on the 19th in court

 

[spoiledmom]

We've discussed all of SC' s public records in the first few threads of this case.

The only things that are pending in SC's case are the two charges for dogs not licensed, not vaccinated, and two of them running loose.
I am not sure why the 2007 speeding ticket still shows as pending, an error probably.
The terminated are from 1997 (DUI) and a 1998 traffic stop.
He had another ticket in 2005.

He has nothing on public record that really relates to a child missing IMO

I think if that were the case we all would know about it. That wouldn't go on his record until he is officially charged. We need some concrete evidence.

 

[liz b.]

At the time I assumed he was talking about boundaries re: the media, etc. although they were never really in the media spotlight so that does not make much sense either...

IMO to " set boundaries " is a parenting issue. The two boys have never been in the media. Which is as it should be. MOO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

We've discussed all of SC' s public records in the first few threads of this case.

The only things that are pending in SC's case are the two charges for dogs not licensed, not vaccinated, and two of them running loose.
I am not sure why the 2007 speeding ticket still shows as pending, an error probably.
The terminated are from 1997 (DUI) and a 1998 traffic stop.
He had another ticket in 2005.

He has nothing on public record that really relates to a child missing IMO

Oh, thanks, I thought it was newly discovered charges.

All I remember other than the dog charges was back when he was about 22 years old and it involved drugs, is that right?

IMO

 

[Prof]

Oh, thanks, I thought it was newly discovered charges.

All I remember other than the dog charges was back when he was about 22 years old and it involved drugs, is that right?

IMO

You're welcome. Yes, links to cases would not be working URLS.
Yes, the DUI was around the time he married RC.