AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 9

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  • #921
Tucson police detectives accompanied the parents of Isabel Celis back to the family home Wednesday as part of their investigation into the 6-year-old girl's disappearance.

A police official said the return to the house was part of the "normal investigative process."

Detectives took Isabel's father, Sergio, and mother, Becky, into the house separately.
"The family has been cooperating," said police Lt. Fabian Pacheco at the 2 p.m. police briefing. "We are there with their consent to continue our investigation."

Taking them in separately inside the house is not normal investigative process in my opinion. Nor is taking a young boy (teen?) inside the house separately either.

Isa has 2 brothers. IF the boy was one brother, where is the other one?
 
  • #922
  • #923
Right. I would never disbelieve a child who states they have been molested. But the odd reporting and shifting reporting of the case did cause me to question whether an intruder assault actually took place there.

In this time, in Tuscon, a scared child running into Mommy's room stating, "Mom, I think someone's in my bedroom!" could be translated by an on-edge parent to "911, please come! I think there is an intruder in here trying to rape my kids!"

We have no uncontroverted facts yet, except there was a 911 call about a molestation by an intruder in progress, a later notation on the TPD crime map about a forcible rape at what seems to be the same location, a composite and an investigation by the police.

Everything else that has been reported has been later contradicted or changed in some form.

To question the reality of that situation is not to dismiss claims of possible minor child crime victims nor is it to suddenly decide "never to believe the girls". Where that came from, I don't understand at all.

I for one question what happened that night but I also think it could be very, very significant and I take it very seriously. It could absolutely be connected to Isabel's case and would scare me to death if I lived in Tuscon.

About the uncle/cousin. I see a lot of rumor on this thread being treated as fact and tons of misniformation.

First of all, I saw no one suspect him because of what he wore in photos. Maybe I missed that. But I never saw one post regarding his dress style. I saw him on the news and his FB page and he looked completely normal to me as far as his style.

Second, I gave a pretty detailed list about why some think he should be investigated, none of which had to do with his clothes or jewelry. Those included that: 1) Many have been molested by family members so they immediately look at family members, as par for the course; 2) He was talking about Isabel in the past tense on the news only two days after she went missing; 3) His FB appeared to indicate that he had moved to Tuscon from Florida in the last year, which would be a change in family dynamic for Isabel. Any change in family dynamic should be looked at; 4) He posted, once in AZ after coming there from Florida that he loves being loved and loves, loves being an uncle. Not a sinister statement but may indicate a new relationship with young relatives, one of them who could be Isabel; 5) RUMOR from another site is that he appointed himself as the family spokesperson in the first days of the disappearance and that the family was annoyed by this; 6) An overall vibe by some who have seen his FB that he may not be that socially inept when it comes to women due to his age, status and some remarks on his FB pages, and; 7) He has an apparent criminal history involving drugs, IIRC (I have not seen his criminal records) from Florida and Arizona.

I think there are solid reasons to look at this man and see where he was that night, etc. However, what is clearly rumor and should not be taken as fact, besides the rumor I posted above?:
1. It is RUMOR that he spent the night at Isabel's the night before she was reported missing, or tucked her in or was there the following morning. In fact, it is LESS than rumor because there is no indication that this is the case from any source except the speculative minds of websleuthers. No MSM report, no LE report. No rumors from family, friends, nothing. The neighbor stated an uncle came to her door that morning around 8:00 a.m.. She never identified who that "uncle" was.
2. It is a RUMOR that JM is actually a cousin to Isabel. That came from a post here in which someone stated they read somewhere else that JB is actually the cousin to Becky, the mother, which would mean he is the cousin to Isabel and her brothers. We actually do not know his family relationship at all. He identified himself as Isabel's cousin to news reporters but that has not been verified by LE or Isabel's parents.
3. It is a RUMOR that he lives very close to Isabel. In fact, again, that is less than rumor, it is speculation on the part of websleuthers based on reports that Isabel's paternal grandparents live down the street. But, we do not know where this guy lives. None of that has been determined, reported or alluded to by LE, the media or Isabel's parents.

In any event, I think looking at the uncle, among other people, is very wise. I would look at him closely if I were LE. But I hope we don't get carried away here by wild speculation that is based on nothing at all but out own ideas and imaginations. We can't sleuth with misinformation or conjecture mistaken for fact. :moo:

Here are the reasons I thought the uncle was there.
--The next door neighbor stated the 'uncle' came over at 8 am. True, she never said which uncle, but this is the only uncle that has made his presence known.

-- HIS OWN WORDS:

Justin Mastromarino, Isabel's uncle, tells KGUN, "You don't think anything like that will happen to you and you wake up and you're in that scenario. Everything goes through your mind. Anger, confusion. They're very upset right now. Her mother is beside herself. We're just trying let the police do their thing and get as much information as we can."
"You wonder, is this happening. Is it a dream?
You hear about it, but it's real," said Justin Mastromarino, Isabel's uncle.

When I read his words, it sounds very much like somebody who WOKE UP TO THE CRISIS IN THE HOME. " You wake up and you're in that scenario."

---He doesn't have a current drivers license. So for him to get there so early that morning does not make sense unless he was already there.

---People have tried to sleuth his current address in Tucson and have not been successful.
 
  • #924
With all due respect, at this point saying a stranger kidnapped Isa is as much speculation as saying a family member is responsible.

<modsnip>?


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The stranger abduction theory is a viable one, imo. There really hasnt been anything to show it isnt.

Even on the fliers printed and on some of the missing children sites it lists Isa as Endangered Missing-(by) non custodial.

And LE has even put Mexican police on alert for Isa and her pic is being shown in that country. They have also made a point to say the outlandish theories on the internet is getting out of hand. I think they have reasons for saying that and they said it again today.

Imo, LE has changed their tune somewhat. They are still saying no one has been ruled out but they wanted certain things clearly known ..such as a search warrant was not needed on the home today and the parents gave their permission.

The best place to meet is in the home imo. That is the only way both the parents and LE can have total privacy. If they had asked them to come down to the police station then the media would have rushed into the faces of the parents as they tried to enter.

For the first time today, I saw a softer side given to this family by LE.

While they may be like most LE who never rules anyone out before the suspect is found I dont think the parents are in their sight as possible suspects.
 
  • #925
I think the speculation that he (uncle) may have spent the night there comes from the neighbor in the guesthouse (who heard the male voices) saying that the uncle was there early when the father was looking around for Isa. In fact, I believe this neighbor said that the uncle came to her door, didn't she?

For me, at least, that is what makes me wonder if he spent the night there - him being on the scene so quickly. :twocents:

If you visit the mother's FB you can see that they have a large, extended family. Why assume that the "uncle" who came to the neighbor's house was JM? It could have been but we simply cannot assume that.
 
  • #926
Thanks for the presser updates!

I don't get why a simple timeline can't be established after 12 days. What does it take to confirm that

Yes Isa was at school on Friday from ___ to ____

Yes Isa got home from school from ____ to _____

Family home from _____to_______

Family went to ballpark at ______

Family arrived home at ________

Mom and and dad went to bed at ________

Isa went to bed at 11:00 pm

Brothers went to bed at ________

Any others at the house that night? Yes______No________

If others at the house what time did they leave? _________

Did anybody inside the home hear anything? ______________

What time did mom leave on Saturday ?____________


Are these "sensitive" questions to the investigation? :waitasec:

There must be a reason for it. Who knows what it is, but I hope it is worth it. Because some of these could at least generate more tips. For instance, if they say publicly that no one was in the house, but a friend of someone who was actually in the house heard from that person that they were staying there - that friend could call LE and tell them. Or, Mom and Dad went to bed at [insert time] but some store clerk saw one of the other after that time - they could call LE. I can do one of these for each of those unanswered questions. Something is telling LE that keeping those unanswered is > than the potential tips they would generate.
 
  • #927
If they are...this is not about a random stranger running loose, IMO.

Or perhaps it is and they don't want the perp knowing they have a timeline down pat and they know exactly what time he/she entered the home? Or left the home?

Did the brothers have friends over after the ballgame? :banghead:
 
  • #928
Classified as in pertinent to the investigation. Information that concerns "sensitive" subject matter, i.e. drugs, sex, 🤬🤬🤬🤬, etc. :moo:

Isn't any missing investigation "sensitive?" Especially if it involves a child?
LE has to protect what evidence they do find, and they certainly are not going to leak it to the media or public until it's been thoroughly analyzed.
They could have found the clothes she was supposedly wearing, or they could have found something that looked suspicious or that didn't belong there. But they did not take them back to the house just to talk to them. I would bet anything on that.
 
  • #929
Here are the reasons I thought the uncle was there.
--The next door neighbor stated the 'uncle' came over at 8 am. True, she never said which uncle, but this is the only uncle that has made his presence known.

-- HIS OWN WORDS:

Justin Mastromarino, Isabel's uncle, tells KGUN, "You don't think anything like that will happen to you and you wake up and you're in that scenario. Everything goes through your mind. Anger, confusion. They're very upset right now. Her mother is beside herself. We're just trying let the police do their thing and get as much information as we can."
"You wonder, is this happening. Is it a dream?
You hear about it, but it's real," said Justin Mastromarino, Isabel's uncle.

When I read his words, it sounds very much like somebody who WOKE UP TO THE CRISIS IN THE HOME. " You wake up and you're in that scenario."

---He doesn't have a current drivers license. So for him to get there so early that morning does not make sense unless he was already there.

---People have tried to sleuth his current address in Tucson and have not been successful.

What he said seemed to come from his heart and mind. All that he said makes perfect sense to me. It would be like waking up to a nightmare and hoping that it is just a bad dream.

IMO
 
  • #930
Here are the reasons I thought the uncle was there.
--The next door neighbor stated the 'uncle' came over at 8 am. True, she never said which uncle, but this is the only uncle that has made his presence known.

-- HIS OWN WORDS:

Justin Mastromarino, Isabel's uncle, tells KGUN, "You don't think anything like that will happen to you and you wake up and you're in that scenario. Everything goes through your mind. Anger, confusion. They're very upset right now. Her mother is beside herself. We're just trying let the police do their thing and get as much information as we can."
"You wonder, is this happening. Is it a dream?
You hear about it, but it's real," said Justin Mastromarino, Isabel's uncle.

When I read his words, it sounds very much like somebody who WOKE UP TO THE CRISIS IN THE HOME. " You wake up and you're in that scenario."

---He doesn't have a current drivers license. So for him to get there so early that morning does not make sense unless he was already there.

---People have tried to sleuth his current address in Tucson and have not been successful.

No matter where a relative woke up that day, they were waking to crisis. But in any event, it sounded to me like he was describing what the parents were feeling, not himself.

Listen, he could have been there. Who knows? You have some good reasons for thinking he may have been there. And I think it is fine to wonder and speculate. My problem is that I am starting to see rumor or speculation begin to be treated as fact. I'm sorry, but I think we need to be very careful with that.
 
  • #931
:seeya: Yes, it has improved in the past hour ...

:waitasec: I was wondering IF the "occupiers" got to WS ...

:crazy::crazy::crazy:

BBM

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:
 
  • #932
Isn't any missing investigation "sensitive?" Especially if it involves a child?
LE has to protect what evidence they do find, and they certainly are not going to leak it to the media or public until it's been thoroughly analyzed.
They could have found the clothes she was supposedly wearing, or they could have found something that looked suspicious or that didn't belong there. But they did not take them back to the house just to talk to them. I would bet anything on that.

I sure hope they didnt give them bad news. There will come a time and point that LE will have to tell them it is most likely that Isa is dead and never coming home again.:(
 
  • #933
The stranger abduction theory is a viable one, imo. There really hasnt been anything to show it isnt.

Even on the fliers printed and on some of the missing children sites it lists Isa as Endangered Missing-(by) non custodial.

And LE has even put Mexican police on alert for Isa and her pic is being shown in that country. They have also made a point to say the outlandish theories on the internet is getting out of hand. I think they have reasons for saying that and they said it again today.

Imo, LE has changed their tune somewhat. They are still saying no one has been ruled out but they wanted certain things clearly known ..such as a search warrant was not needed on the home today and the parents gave their permission.

The best place to meet is in the home imo. That is the only way both the parents and LE can have total privacy. If they had asked them to come down to the police station then the media would have rushed into the faces of the parents as they tried to enter.

For the first time today, I saw a softer side given to this family by LE.

While they may be like most LE who never rules anyone out before the suspect is found I dont think the parents are in their sight as possible suspects.

I don't know...the press is outside their house. LE has questioned the parents before and we did not see that on camera-they could have easily sent an undercover car to pick them up and get them in a back door.

I think there is a chance it was a stranger abduction too though, especially in light of the other intruder assault.
 
  • #934
If you visit the mother's FB you can see that they have a large, extended family. Why assume that the "uncle" who came to the neighbor's house was JM? It could have been but we simply cannot assume that.

I think that assumption was made because the uncle was right there immediately after Isabel was reported missing - no transport to the house required unless he lived next door or across the road type thing, then at the first press conference - large extended families usually hang around each other at press conferences, or very nearby.

I dunno :banghead:
 
  • #935
There have been some posters questioning whether the FBI dogs "hit" on something in or near the home. Here is Chief Villasenor saying yes, the dogs did alert on items.

http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/04/23/jvm-isabel-celis

This is a BIG deal to me. Could be a game changer for me when it comes to my opinion of the parents' possible involvement.

Earlier, LE only stated that the dogs gave some information. That could be a hit or a failure to hit.

Now he clearly said the dogs alerted on some items which caused LE to need to secure the home and search it more fully?

What kind of alert could cause that but a cadaver hit? Anyone?
 
  • #936
What he said seemed to come from his heart and mind. All that he said makes perfect sense to me. It would be like waking up to a nightmare and hope that it is just a bad dream.

IMO

It seemed to me that it was all about HIM and not a missing child. He referred to HIMSELF 7 times, and Isabel, not once.
 
  • #937
No matter where a relative woke up that day, they were waking to crisis. But in any event, it sounded to me like he was describing what the parents were feeling, not himself.

Listen, he could have been there. Who knows? You have some good reasons for thinking he may have been there. And I think it is fine to wonder and speculate. My problem is that I am starting to see rumor or speculation begin to be treated as fact. I'm sorry, but I think we need to be very careful with that.

I agree, but I don't think anyone here is doing that? I do see NG doing that, regarding the whole "police looking closely at cousin".
 
  • #938
LE has been almost begging the family to talk to the media. They are not answering some of what I would consider simple questions like the timeline for example.

Are they concerned that some of the answers to these questions may inadvertently point the finger at the parents or a family member and then if it turns out it is a stranger, they are faced with legal ramifications? OR have the parents or family members lawyered up already? Or will lawyer up ?

Something isn't making sense.
 
  • #939
I think that assumption was made because the uncle was right there immediately after Isabel was reported missing - no transport to the house required unless he lived next door or across the road type thing, then at the first press conference - large extended families usually hang around each other at press conferences, or very nearby.

I dunno :banghead:

I love ya' Gut but this is exactly what I mean by conjecture being treated as fact. Where has it ever been reported by MSM or LE that JM was right there after Isabel was reported missing?

A neighbor reported that the dad and an uncle came by her house that morning but we don't know what uncle, whose uncle, nothing. And JM's interview appeared to given at least 24 hours after Isabel went missing.

If I am wrong, please correct me because if it can be shown that indeed, he was there right after she was reported missing, that is not rumor, that's an important fact.
 
  • #940
:moo:
This is a BIG deal to me. Could be a game changer for me when it comes to my opinion of the parents' possible involvement.

Earlier, LE only stated that the dogs gave some information. That could be a hit or a failure to hit.

Now he clearly said the dogs alerted on some items which caused LE to need to secure the home and search it more fully?

What kind of alert could cause that but a cadaver hit? Anyone?

Not sure, there were 2 FBI dogs, not sure WHAT they were trained to hit on. I don't think they would send TWO cadaver dogs though.
 
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