AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #2

[Ms Suzanne]

Will you feel the same way if as time goes by we find out that this boy wasn't abused and that he did murder the two guys? Not everyone can be fixed with a lot of love and nurturing. With some they are so broken that therapy doesn't even help. I don't know about this boy yet but it is true of some kids sad to say. If that were the case I would hope that you wouldn't want to take him into your home and put your family at risk.

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With some they are so broken that therapy doesn't even help.

I really do not believe in this statement.Sometimes just talking about what you are feeling helps way more than you would realize.I need to do this and talk to people when things are bothering me.I tend to bottle things up and not talk about how I feel.This is not good.Not good at all.This is why I was so concerned if this little boy was talking to a counselor or not and upset he wasn't.You would be real surprized just how showing a little love towards someone will change thier whole way of thinking and acting.There is a saying you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.I never could figure out why we would be wanting to attract bees though.LOL.

If he wasn't abused I would still say what provoked this little boy to do what he did.

 

[SoobsinMI]

I am talking about when the neighbor called 911. The kid tells the neighbors about deaths at his home, they don't have to run over.. they might just look out and see. I'm saying it didn't take long to verify, the dead man was in the front yard.

I think that is one reason why the boy decided to tell the neighbors. Mr Romans was not going to stay undiscovered for long. Remember the home and the area where he was laying was very close to the road.

I don't know why the other neighbors didn't see mr. Romans, however the person who called 911 wasn't home. The child went to his house, and told the neighbor's teenaged son, who then called his father. His father is the one who called 911.

 

[SoobsinMI]

Will you feel the same way if as time goes by we find out that this boy wasn't abused and that he did murder the two guys? Not everyone can be fixed with a lot of love and nurturing. With some they are so broken that therapy doesn't even help.

I agree that some kids are just "broken." I do believe in "evil." I am not ready to say that THIS child is broken and evil....we do NOT have enough information to form an opinion about this child, in this respect, yet. IMO, of course. All we really know about him is that he's 8 years old, he got in trouble for not bringing his homework home, he has had NO disciplinary problems at school, and his father and a boarder are dead.

I do believe that some 8 year olds can be sociopathic. But I do NOT believe that every child who does wrong, should be labeled as such immediately. The court records that we've been privy to have NOT been able to establish his state of mind, his competency, etc. So I will wait, with the rest of the world, to see what the outcome of psych testing shows.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I would take him in as well; given i had the situation provided. Whether or not the boy killed; whether or not he is a sociopath; for him to be given up on.. what does that say about one's outlook on humanity if we cannot have hope for a child?
Even if the boy is a sociopath; if no one searches for a cure or gives up, then one will never be found. They have evidence in MRI's of the area of the brain that controls impulses (it is very small and not developed in some cases of sociopaths).
We find ways to treat or control cancer, diabetes and other such physical ailments. Why not can the same be said for sociopathy? It is based on physical circumstances and psychiatrists or psychologists may be doctors; yet if they aren't working hand in hand with expert physicians (lack of word too late at night), no progress will be made.

Sorry for the rant.. i just don't think this child should be written off so quickly. Either way the cookie crumbles.
It's bedtime..

A sociopath is a person born without a conscience. There is no way that we can do anything about that. That is just the way they are made. That is a known fact.

I would never take in a child that is a sociopath. By doing that I would be putting myself at risk and everyone that I am in contact with including my own grandkids and great grandkids. I can't imagine anyone putting their own family at risk just to take in a child that can't be helped.

 

[Bobbisangel]

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With some they are so broken that therapy doesn't even help.

I really do not believe in this statement.Sometimes just talking about what you are feelings helps way more than you would realize.I need to do this and talk to people when things are bothering me.I tend to bottle things up and not talk about how I feel.This is not good.Not good at all.This is why I was so concerned if this little boy was talking to a counselor or not and upset he wasn't.You would be real surprized just how showing a little love towards someone will change thier whole way of thinking and acting.There is a saying you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.I never could figure out why we would be wanting to attract bees though.LOL.

If he wasn't abused I would still say what provoked this little boy to do what he did.

I'm sure that you are right about some kids but I still believe that there are people of all ages who are so damaged that they can't be fixed. Do you think Jeffrey Daumer could have been fixed....Ted Bundy...some of the horrible killers we know about? These guys are sociopaths without consciences and there was no helping them from the time they were small. They are or were not like other people.

Most children who have been abused can heal in time with a lot of attention, nurturing, love, and patience. Sociopaths cannot be healed even if they have years of therapy. They don't have the ability to even feel the way we feel things. They mimic.

I agree that this little guy needs to be in therapy. He needs someone to express his feelings to and just to talk to. We don't know if he was abused or not and probably won't know until this all comes to a head but regardless he still needs someone to talk one on one with.

I know all about needing someone to talk to...believe me. I went to therapy for quite a while after my daughter was murdered and my granddaughter who was nearly 5 at the time of the murder was in therapy for years. We know the value of therapy. We were also blessed with wonderful caring therapists.
I have also been on the other side as I worked with drug addicts/alcoholics and the mentally ill adults for many years...dual diag clients in a treatment center. Loved it.

I sincerely hope that this little guy didn't commit the murders. I also hope that he didn't shoot each guy twice so they wouldn't suffer if someone else was in the house before this little guy. He says they were still alive and so he shot them so they wouldn't suffer. That would mean that he still did the actual murders.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I agree that some kids are just "broken." I do believe in "evil." I am not ready to say that THIS child is broken and evil....we do NOT have enough information to form an opinion about this child, in this respect, yet. IMO, of course. All we really know about him is that he's 8 years old, he got in trouble for not bringing his homework home, he has had NO disciplinary problems at school, and his father and a boarder are dead.

I do believe that some 8 year olds can be sociopathic. But I do NOT believe that every child who does wrong, should be labeled as such immediately. The court records that we've been privy to have NOT been able to establish his state of mind, his competency, etc. So I will wait, with the rest of the world, to see what the outcome of psych testing shows.

I totally agree with you.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

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I'm sure that you are right about some kids but I still believe that there are people of all ages who are so damaged that they can't be fixed. Do you think Jeffrey Daumer could have been fixed....Ted Bundy...some of the horrible killers we know about? These guys are sociopaths without consciences and there was no helping them from the time they were small. They are or were not like other people.

Well,Jefferey Daumer to me was one of the worst serial killers out there to me.I remember watching on T.V one of the victims sister cussing him out in the court room.He just sat there and watched her.No,I did not feel sorry for him when he died in prison.I'm sorry but I just didn't.I think they could have been fixed long before they were like this.Honestly,How were these two raised?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I really don't think this boy will be diagnosed with any mental disorder such as the traits of a psychopath or sociopath. He may have a personality disorder of some kind. He may have some compulsivity or even have a tinge of histrionics or narcissism. I have realized that this boy had to know he was very important because both biological parents were vying to keep him and even Tiffany seems to have wanted a relationship with him.

But I do think that in tomorrow's hearing the therapists who have evaluated him will find him age incompetent to stand trial at this time. I believe the DA will put in the standard motion asking that he be reevaluated again in 8 months time. That will make the boy closer to ten years old and the case would have to start all over again and could take another year before it went to trial.

In the PFD file it states he asked the CPS caseworker if she was going to ask him why he did it. He then tells her about the 1000th spanking he got over the weekend as the reason. If this is true of frequent spankings and it can be validated, then I do think those are mitigating factors to consider, however that would be for the sentencing phase and not whether he is guilty of doing the crimes themselves imo. If he is guilty and it was because of the spankings that he got from either Tffany or Vincent, then I just don't know how Tim Romans death comes into play any other way except the boy eliminated any witness to the crime that day. I think the Romans' murder is much more problematic for the boy, than the father's.

But one part does give me pause and that is how an 8 year old typical or normal boy could plot from that weekend to Wednesday and plan and carry this out. That does make me wonder just how typical or normal this kid's thinking process really is. Most kids will get extremely angry and in the next thirty minutes they have forgotten about it and go on with their lives.

imoo

 

[Shock]

The hand gestures are from one officer to the other on how to "lead" the conversation based on what the person being interrogated is answering to the questions. LE couldn't have been more obvious about their hand signs..

That's what I figured. I've only been interrogated by my wife and her hand gestures were real obvious!
Is LE really going to claim that the boy wasn't a suspect?

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Well,We do not know any of this yet.We'll see what happens.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

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Is LE really going to claim that the boy wasn't a suspect?

Really.I want to know this too.

 

[Shock]

LE would have been the ones to release the crime scene. If that was my house I would have bio chemical cleaners come in and clean as soon as the crime scene was released. I would have someone go in and pack up everything and then I would sell it as soon as it is through probate. I could no way in heck live there. I couldn't even go in it again.

I'm with you. The house is certainly stigmatized, as they say in Real Estate jargon, and may be hard to sell. Regardless, I wouldn't stay there had it been a member of my family killed.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm sure that you are right about some kids but I still believe that there are people of all ages who are so damaged that they can't be fixed. Do you think Jeffrey Daumer could have been fixed....Ted Bundy...some of the horrible killers we know about? These guys are sociopaths without consciences and there was no helping them from the time they were small. They are or were not like other people.

Most children who have been abused can heal in time with a lot of attention, nurturing, love, and patience. Sociopaths cannot be healed even if they have years of therapy. They don't have the ability to even feel the way we feel things. They mimic.

I agree that this little guy needs to be in therapy. He needs someone to express his feelings to and just to talk to. We don't know if he was abused or not and probably won't know until this all comes to a head but regardless he still needs someone to talk one on one with.

I know all about needing someone to talk to...believe me. I went to therapy for quite a while after my daughter was murdered and my granddaughter who was nearly 5 at the time of the murder was in therapy for years. We know the value of therapy. We were also blessed with wonderful caring therapists.
I have also been on the other side as I worked with drug addicts/alcoholics and the mentally ill adults for many years...dual diag clients in a treatment center. Loved it.

I sincerely hope that this little guy didn't commit the murders. I also hope that he didn't shoot each guy twice so they wouldn't suffer if someone else was in the house before this little guy. He says they were still alive and so he shot them so they wouldn't suffer. That would mean that he still did the actual murders.

I agree and many of these people from very early on showed no conscience. You can't grow a conscience and transplant it into someone that has absolutely no idea or cares what it is.

Look at what Joesph Duncan was capable of doing as a younger child when he was already binding and raping little 5 year old boys by 8 years old. I believe some people are born just broken and have a disconnect.

Sociopaths and psychopaths are not treatable. They are who they are and always will be.

They even sent Duncan to a mental health facility when he was arrested at 14 or 15. The psychologists found him untreatable and that is why he served out his 20 years in prison. He just couldn't be fixed yet he was placed back into society to become one of the most sadistic, depraved pedophile, multiple murderers in recent years. No abuse was ever found to have happened in his life.

imo

 

[SeriouslySearching]

A sociopath is a person born without a conscience. There is no way that we can do anything about that. That is just the way they are made. That is a known fact.

I would never take in a child that is a sociopath. By doing that I would be putting myself at risk and everyone that I am in contact with including my own grandkids and great grandkids. I can't imagine anyone putting their own family at risk just to take in a child that can't be helped.

I do agree. There are those children who are born without a conscience. However, what we have heard about this particular child so far doesn't appear to fit within the criteria I would expect to find with one of those children.

Of course, I would not put my family at risk...but what happens when one is born to you? Do you walk away such as the parents in Nebraska recently?

I know a woman who was raising one as an adoption within the family and she showed definite signs of that personality since birth at home, school, etc. The violence was listed on her record a mile long. She could not get help for the child from the state. It was a sad situation. Most institutions they tried for placement for treatment turned her away due to her violent nature. The options are very limited for those parents and children.

Still, until we hear more...we won't know about this particular child. This case just appears to be a rush to judgement that he is guilty due to his "confession". I want to see the proof then I want to know the rest of the circumstances involved.

The other man told his wife they were angry when they got home because they were scheduled to work the weekend. Did this have something to do with the shooting perhaps?

 

[Shock]

OBE, do you think we'll have that much more information after the Status Conference tomorrow. I don't know anything about that type of proceeding, but I hope you're right.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Quote by seriouslysearching
I do agree. There are those children who are born without a conscience. However, what we have heard about this particular child so far doesn't appear to fit within the criteria I would expect to find with one of those children

I agree

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Quote by seriously searching.
Still, until we hear more...we won't know about this particular child. This case just appears to be a rush to judgement that he is guilty due to his "confession". I want to see the proof then I want to know the rest of the circumstances involved.

I agree.I want to see the proof too and then I want to know why.

I feel if this little boy gets off or walks it will be because he is too young to know his legal rights and simply does not understand this.That's after everything is thrown out of court because of everyones mistakes.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

OBE, do you think we'll have that much more information after the Status Conference tomorrow. I don't know anything about that type of proceeding, but I hope you're right.

Good Morning, Shock.

Well we will learn more than we know now but what that may be is only a guess. I think tomorrow will be an update (of where do we stand at this time) and possibly the evaluation results.

Also we may see where the DA has given more evidence to the defense. If they do that then they will list what they turned over. I don't think there will be further testimony by anyone but maybe the mental experts but of course I am only guessing.

I have been thinking though, lol Do you think the DA may be holding back what evidence he has waiting until the age competency situation is known? He may think, why turn it over for them to have for 8 months if this thing is not even going to go to trial now. Just thinking out loud. The DA knows when the Judge will cut him off and give him a firm deadline when all discovery must be turned in. As far as I have seen the Judge hasn't laid the law down and demanded he must do so by a certain time or else. Only that he expects the defense and the State to do so.

imo

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I think we just need to wait and find out what they say tommorrow.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Have we decided if we were going to start that thread or forum on just the facts yet?So I can go there.I do think that would be a great idea.