AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[seashore]

I wished I could have pretended everything was just fine when I was emotionally, physically and sexually abused. All the red flags were there even though I never breathed a word to anyone and protected my abusers secrets out of quaking fear. I was shy, quiet, introverted, sickly and jumped at my own shadow at the least little thing. I wore pants to school to hide my bruises when pants weren't cool.

When I finally exposed my childhood abusers when I was 38 years old, it was only then that family members admitted they felt something was very wrong all along. They were the ones who pretended not to see what was right before them. I even met one of my teachers after then and she told me she had always suspected abuse was happening in my life but at that time people didn't get involved.

imoo

Circumstances such as yours do happen. I'm sorry you had to go through that. My point was simply that physical abuse does not always leave physical evidence. The boy in this case could have been physically abused and nobody knew (or didn't want to get involved). Every case is different. There are some factors that are the same, but there are also differences. That's all I was trying to convey.

imo, all abuse is abuse and harmful emotionally and psychologically to people no matter what kind of abuse it is. I also think that there is no abuse worse than another. It's all very painful to the abusee.

This boy may or may not have been abused, but I'll lay 9 to 1 odds that there was something going on for an 8 year old child to have shot those 2 men. I really don't believe a child would do something like that without a motive. I know there are children everywhere who would like to shot their parents, but don't, unless there is something terribly wrong going on in the child's life.

Just some thoughts.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Circumstances such as yours do happen. I'm sorry you had to go through that. My point was simply that physical abuse does not always leave physical evidence. The boy in this case could have been physically abused and nobody knew (or didn't want to get involved). Every case is different. There are some factors that are the same, but there are also differences. That's all I was trying to convey.

imo, all abuse is abuse and harmful emotionally and psychologically to people no matter what kind of abuse it is. I also think that there is no abuse worse than another. It's all very painful to the abuse.

This boy may or may not have been abused, but I'll lay 9 to 1 odds that there was something going on for an 8 year old child to have shot those 2 men. I really don't believe a child would do something like that without a motive. I know there are children everywhere who would like to shot their parents, but don't, unless there is something terribly wrong going on in the child's life.

Just some thoughts.

I do agree he had a motive. All those who kill have a motive no matter how nonsensical at the time.

Actually there are juveniles who murder for a myriad of reasons. Some have killed because they didn't want to do chores and were angry that they were expected to do them. Some have killed because they became angry with the parent or parents if they put them on restriction or wouldn't let them do something they wanted to do.

So we can't say with any certainty that all children murder because of abuse or that something was going on that was wrong in the home. In fact I believe very few abused children actually murder their abuser or abusers but endures until they can find a way out or becomes of age where they can leave imo.

imoo

 

[Fairy1]

I do agree he had a motive. All those who kill have a motive no matter how nonsensical at the time.

Actually there are juveniles who murder for a myriad of reasons. Some have killed because they didn't want to do chores and were angry that they were expected to do them. Some have killed because they became angry with the parent or parents if they put them on restriction or wouldn't let them do something they wanted to do.

So we can't say with any certainty that all children murder because of abuse or that something was going on that was wrong in the home. In fact I believe very few abused children actually murder their abuser or abusers but endures until they can find a way out or becomes of age where they can leave imo.

imoo

I agree that there would have been a motive - and not necessarily abuse of any kind. This is exactly why I don't believe this child killed these men. Based on what we know, there was no reason for this boy to kill them. I feel in my heart there is much more to this story than we know and I just cannot believe that an 8-year-old child, in this environment would kill his own father under the circumstances we know of....so far. IMO, any child this age capable of cold-blooded murder and of handling a weapon as he would have had to do it would have shown some signs of a disorder or behavioral issues. By all accounts, this boy didn't.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I agree that there would have been a motive - and not necessarily abuse of any kind. This is exactly why I don't believe this child killed these men. Based on what we know, there was no reason for this boy to kill them. I feel in my heart there is much more to this story than we know and I just cannot believe that an 8-year-old child, in this environment would kill his own father under the circumstances we know of....so far. IMO, any child this age capable of cold-blooded murder and of handling a weapon as he would have had to do it would have shown some signs of a disorder or behavioral issues. By all accounts, this boy didn't.

The boy was known to LIE a lot.
So did Casey Anthony.

IMO they have lots in common

Just compare the two for a minute.

 

[MrsG728]

I wished I could have pretended everything was just fine when I was emotionally, physically and sexually abused. All the red flags were there even though I never breathed a word to anyone and protected my abusers secrets out of quaking fear. I was shy, quiet, introverted, sickly and jumped at my own shadow at the least little thing. I wore pants to school to hide my bruises when pants weren't cool.

When I finally exposed my childhood abusers when I was 38 years old, it was only then that family members admitted they felt something was very wrong all along. They were the ones who pretended not to see what was right before them. I even met one of my teachers after then and she told me she had always suspected abuse was happening in my life but at that time people didn't get involved.

imoo

none of this is your fault. You acted like a normally scared child would act because you had the you-know-what scared right out of you. I think it is horrible that no one would speak up for you as a child, and I am sorry no one did Ocean, do you think this has to do with southern politeness/hospitality? Just wondering... I see family friends reluctant to speak out against someone or something because they are "southern gentlemen".

 

[Fairy1]

The boy was known to LIE a lot.
So did Casey Anthony.

IMO they have lots in common

Just compare the two for a minute.

Children who live in fear lie. Casey Anthony is an adult - not an 8-year-old child. I fail to see a comparison here....

 

[Trino]

I agree that there would have been a motive - and not necessarily abuse of any kind. This is exactly why I don't believe this child killed these men. Based on what we know, there was no reason for this boy to kill them. I feel in my heart there is much more to this story than we know and I just cannot believe that an 8-year-old child, in this environment would kill his own father under the circumstances we know of....so far. IMO, any child this age capable of cold-blooded murder and of handling a weapon as he would have had to do it would have shown some signs of a disorder or behavioral issues. By all accounts, this boy didn't.

The boy was spanked the night before the murders. Right now, this seems to be the motive.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

none of this is your fault. You acted like a normally scared child would act because you had the you-know-what scared right out of you. I think it is horrible that no one would speak up for you as a child, and I am sorry no one did Ocean, do you think this has to do with southern politeness/hospitality? Just wondering... I see family friends reluctant to speak out against someone or something because they are "southern gentlemen".

Thank you for your understanding, MrsG.

I think that may have been a part of it back then, due to the times. People minded their own business, even when it was not the wise thing to do. It has changed drastically in the last 15-20 years or so, thank the Lord and now there are many who do report to DFCS and children have become more empowered to tell now. Teachers are now trained to recognize abuse. So we have definitely made steps in the right direction.

And my abusers were known to be abusive to adults as well. I think some that knew, also feared them and were fearful to confront them.

imoo

 

[seashore]

I do agree he had a motive. All those who kill have a motive no matter how nonsensical at the time.

Actually there are juveniles who murder for a myriad of reasons. Some have killed because they didn't want to do chores and were angry that they were expected to do them. Some have killed because they became angry with the parent or parents if they put them on restriction or wouldn't let them do something they wanted to do.

So we can't say with any certainty that all children murder because of abuse or that something was going on that was wrong in the home. In fact I believe very few abused children actually murder their abuser or abusers but endures until they can find a way out or becomes of age where they can leave imo.

imoo

Hi Oceanblueeyes,
Here is a link to an article from Psychology Today re kids who kill their parents. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-1803.html&fromMod=popular_parenting
It is an informative piece and also states that 90% of kids kill parents are abused kids and see no way out of the situation at home. The majority of kids who kill parents are teens. It also says that kids younger than 11 have no understanding of the concept of death. This may or may not be the case for the boy in the murders of the Romero home killings since they taught him about hunting. So, imo, the boy may have, and I say may have, been the shooter because of something going on in the home that should not be happening. We just don't know for certain.

The article also gives 3 types of kids who their parents. 1) the severly abused child who see no way out, 2) the severly mentally ill child, and 3) the antisocial child. The boy in this case is not shown to be severly mentally ill and has shown no evidence of being antisocial. And we do not know for certain if the child was abused. I suspect he has. Perhaps not physical enough to show broken bones etc., but abused psychologically none the less. Neglect enters into the spectrum of abuse. A host of behaviors by adults who are supposed to nurture him may verbally and emotionally abuse him. We just don't know for certain.

I encourage everyone on this forum to read this article. It's 7 pages long but answers a lot of questions and gives alot of insight into the topic of this case.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi Oceanblueeyes,
Here is a link to an article from Psychology Today re kids who kill their parents. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-1803.html&fromMod=popular_parenting
It is an informative piece and also states that 90% of kids kill parents are abused kids and see no way out of the situation at home. The majority of kids who kill parents are teens. It also says that kids younger than 11 have no understanding of the concept of death. This may or may not be the case for the boy in the murders of the Romero home killings since they taught him about hunting. So, imo, the boy may have, and I say may have, been the shooter because of something going on in the home that should not be happening. We just don't know for certain.

The article also gives 3 types of kids who their parents. 1) the severely abused child who see no way out, 2) the severely mentally ill child, and 3) the antisocial child. The boy in this case is not shown to be severely mentally ill and has shown no evidence of being antisocial. And we do not know for certain if the child was abused. I suspect he has. Perhaps not physical enough to show broken bones etc., but abused psychologically none the less. Neglect enters into the spectrum of abuse. A host of behaviors by adults who are supposed to nurture him may verbally and emotionally abuse him. We just don't know for certain.

I encourage everyone on this forum to read this article. It's 7 pages long but answers a lot of questions and gives alot of insight into the topic of this case.

Thank you. I have read this before.

You are right we don't know. There may be things we aren't aware of concerning this boy at this time. Just because he didn't have discipline problems at school doesn't mean he didn't have problems.

There has to be a valid reason the grandparents thought him capable of doing this. As a grandmother I cannot wrap my mind around that any of my children or grandchildren would be capable of harming another, much less capable of double homicide. So I think the grandparents statements do yield some type of clues to this boy's mindset and we just don't know what that is, as of now.

We have no idea which group he fits into. Nothing is ever 100% one way or the other in these type of cases.

I do not see neglect in this case. Usually abusers do not doted on the abused child imo and those in St. Johns said VR doted on his child. This boy seemed to have a very close relationship with his dad and was seen almost everywhere the father went. The father was to have taken up his time with him, taking him hunting, fishing, supporting him in school sports and was seen often playing basketball with him outside their home. So imo something just doesn't add up or point to abuse in this case. Just my opinion though.

I also do not agree that just because of a child's certain age it means they have no concept about death. It should be judged on each individual child as all children no matter their ages are not the same cookie cutter design.

IMO this boy knew very well that death was final just like he knew the rabbits that he shot with the same gun were dead and were never going to get back up and run off to play again. He even told the officers that his dad had a cell phone like the officer's but his dad was not going to need it since he was not coming back. (paraphrasing)

imoo

 

[seashore]

Thank you. I have read this before.

You are right we don't know. There may be things we aren't aware of concerning this boy at this time. Just because he didn't have discipline problems at school doesn't mean he didn't have problems.

There has to be a valid reason the grandparents thought him capable of doing this. As a grandmother I cannot wrap my mind around that any of my children or grandchildren would be capable of harming another, much less capable of double homicide. So I think the grandparents statements do yield some type of clues to this boy's mindset and we just don't know what that is, as of now.

We have no idea which group he fits into. Nothing is ever 100% one way or the other in these type of cases.

I do not see neglect in this case. Usually abusers do not doted on the abused child imo and those in St. Johns said VR doted on his child. This boy seemed to have a very close relationship with his dad and was seen almost everywhere the father went. The father was to have taken up his time with him, taking him hunting, fishing, supporting him in school sports and was seen often playing basketball with him outside their home. So imo something just doesn't add up or point to abuse in this case. Just my opinion though.

I also do not agree that just because of a child's certain age it means they have no concept about death. It should be judged on each individual child as all children no matter their ages are not the same cookie cutter design.

IMO this boy knew very well that death was final just like he knew the rabbits that he shot with the same gun were dead and were never going to get back up and run off to play again. He even told the officers that his dad had a cell phone like the officer's but his dad was not going to need it since he was not coming back. (paraphrasing)

imoo

I agree with you re child's age and concept of death. As I stated, I don't doubt for a minute that he does not know about the finality of death because he was taught how to hunt and saw the finality in the killing of animals.

The boy's father may have appeared to be a doting father outside the home. What went on in the home is what I question. So often things outside the home are not the same as what goes on inside the home. The Romero's did not live in a glass house. Did anyone know the disaray the environment of the home was in, i.e. clothes strown everywhere, the boy's clothes were dirty, (not sure how dirty, but if he had to put on dirty clothes because he didn't have clean clothes to wear that day, then something to look at if this is a constant thing). I'm no great house keeper, but, within 2 weeks of moving a 5 person household and merging 3 families in the household (my ailing smother-in-law, my 2 daughter, my husband, and myself) I certainly had a more tidy house than the Romero's. From the photos, it seems the environment of their home maybe somewhat chatic, which is not a good environment for a child. Hopefully the condition the house was in was not a norm for them. I don't mean to be judgemental, but it does make one wonder.

 

[seashore]

There has to be a valid reason the grandparents thought him capable of doing this.
imoo

from dictionary.com
ca·pa·ble (kā'pə-bəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Having capacity or ability; efficient and able: a capable administrator.
Having the ability required for a specific task or accomplishment; qualified: capable of winning.
Having the inclination or disposition: capable of violence.
Permitting an action to be performed: an error capable of remedy; a camera capable of being used underwater.

The grandmother also said she thought they (the parents) were too hard on the boy. Of course she would also think he was capable. He was taught how to use a gun and by the very person he is accused of shooting.

 

[Trino]

Hi Oceanblueeyes,
Here is a link to an article from Psychology Today re kids who kill their parents. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-1803.html&fromMod=popular_parenting
It is an informative piece and also states that 90% of kids kill parents are abused kids and see no way out of the situation at home. The majority of kids who kill parents are teens. It also says that kids younger than 11 have no understanding of the concept of death. This may or may not be the case for the boy in the murders of the Romero home killings since they taught him about hunting. So, imo, the boy may have, and I say may have, been the shooter because of something going on in the home that should not be happening. We just don't know for certain.

Although your comment was not directed to me, I, too, have read the article but could not put the boy into a category. There are always also exceptions. I agree with Ocean that the boy knew the finality of death.

I respect your view of "we just don't know," but after two months, the boy is still being held. I do not believe the courts or attorneys have not done their homework and are holding a 9 yr old boy for no reason. They have spent time/money for an evaluation and now for therapy, as the case continures. IMO they know he was the shooter.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

from dictionary.com
ca·pa·ble (kā'pə-bəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.
Having capacity or ability; efficient and able: a capable administrator.
Having the ability required for a specific task or accomplishment; qualified: capable of winning.
Having the inclination or disposition: capable of violence.
Permitting an action to be performed: an error capable of remedy; a camera capable of being used underwater.

The grandmother also said she thought they (the parents) were too hard on the boy. Of course she would also think he was capable. He was taught how to use a gun and by the very person he is accused of shooting.

While I do agree that he had the physical ability to do these shootings, I do not think that was what the grandparents were conveying.

They said IF ANYONE was capable of doing this it was THIS boy. I think that speaks more to his mindset not his physical capabilities.

imoo

 

[seashore]

Although your comment was not directed to me, I, too, have read the article but could not put the boy into a category. There are always also exceptions. I agree with Ocean that the boy knew the finality of death.

I respect your view of "we just don't know," but after two months, the boy is still being held. I do not believe the courts or attorneys have not done their homework and are holding a 9 yr old boy for no reason. They have spent time/money for an evaluation and now for therapy, as the case continures. IMO they know he was the shooter.

I know the boy has been evaluated for competency and has requested therapy. When has he had his mental evaluation and when has his therapy with confidentiality begun. They haven't spent money yet on therapy. His competency to stand trial on the defense side showed he was incompetent to stand trial. We don't know the pros side yet. And from my class on psychology and law we learned you have to pretty much have the brain of a grapefruit to be found incompetent. Many, many are evaluated for competency, but very few are found to be incompetent.

I'm sorry, but I don't have as much faith in the courts or the attorneys in this case. The defense has made motions to get a therapist for the boy an to allow for therapy with confidentiality but the court is dragging their feet in allowing it. Sure, he can talk to one without confidentiality, but that involves the boy being afraid of whatever he says being used to hurt him and misconstrued. The court also would not allow the boy to have a photo of his mother with him. So yes, I can believe they would hold the boy for no reason.

I respect your opinion, but all the facts aren't in yet.

 

[seashore]

While I do agree that he had the physical ability to do these shootings, I do not think that was what the grandparents were conveying.

They said IF ANYONE was capable of doing this it was THIS boy. I think that speaks more to his mindset not his physical capabilities.

imoo

"Having the inclination or disposition: capable of violence." from the definition of capable. Inclination or disposition also implies mindset. If the grandmother believed the parents were being too hard on him, then the boy had the incllination or disposition to do the shootings.

 

[colette]

The boy was known to LIE a lot.
So did Casey Anthony.

IMO they have lots in common

Just compare the two for a minute.

I thought the same thing, self absorbed lying killers.

 

[seashore]

Although your comment was not directed to me, I, too, have read the article but could not put the boy into a category. There are always also exceptions. I agree with Ocean that the boy knew the finality of death. QUOTE]

I agree that the boy could not presently(emphasis added by me) fall any of the types in the article. However, all the facts are not in on the first type, severly abused nor the second type. The third type however, the antisocial, we do know he does not fall. We know this because there has been no evidence of any behavior in school or outside the home that would indicate that he would be antisocial or rather conduct disordered. A child who is conduct disordered would more likely show signs of this outside the home as well as in the home.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

"Having the inclination or disposition: capable of violence." from the definition of capable. Inclination or disposition also implies mindset. If the grandmother believed the parents were being too hard on him, then the boy had the inclination or disposition to do the shootings.

She may have thought he did have the inclination for violence before this happened but I don't think being too hard on children is a viable excuse for them to murder their parents. Many parents are very strict when raising their children and often it depends on the children they have, whether they believe strictness is required or needed.

What is paramount though is they both thought he was capable of doing these murders and that includes Tim Romans. Again, I have known many children that have strict parents thorughout my life but I cannot comprehend any of them ever being capable of murder.

imo

 

[Trino]

I know the boy has been evaluated for competency and has requested therapy. When has he had his mental evaluation and when has his therapy with confidentiality begun. They haven't spent money yet on therapy. His competency to stand trial on the defense side showed he was incompetent to stand trial. We don't know the pros side yet. And from my class on psychology and law we learned you have to pretty much have the brain of a grapefruit to be found incompetent. Many, many are evaluated for competency, but very few are found to be incompetent.

I'm sorry, but I don't have as much faith in the courts or the attorneys in this case. The defense has made motions to get a therapist for the boy an to allow for therapy with confidentiality but the court is dragging their feet in allowing it. Sure, he can talk to one without confidentiality, but that involves the boy being afraid of whatever he says being used to hurt him and misconstrued. The court also would not allow the boy to have a photo of his mother with him. So yes, I can believe they would hold the boy for no reason. I respect your opinion, but all the facts aren't in yet.

The boy's mental evaluation was in Dec.

The boy's therapist is Betty Beaumont, 3 times per week at the rate of $70.00 per session + mileage WITH confidentiality.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...NDED REQUEST FOR APPOINTMENT OF THERAPIST.pdf