AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[christine2448]

Can you honestly, in your own mind, picture a child doing what was done here? I just can't wrap my head around it. I understand your position and I respect your tenacity, but I just cannot see it. I have never met an 8-year-old child capable of planning and executing this type of crime. Taking down 2 grown men with this type of weapon. I just can't see it at all....

If I'm wrong about this, I will be the first to admit it. But, it just does not make sense to me and there is still so, so, so much we don't know.

According to FBI statistics, there were 62 cases between 1976 and 2005 in which children, aged 7 or 8 were arrested on murder charges. Very uncommon, but it does and has happened.

In 1989 a 10-year-old boy in Houston fatally shot his father and wounded his mother after they would not let him go outside to play.

The most recent previous case of an 8-year-old killing his parent occurred in August 1990, when a Pennsylvania boy found his father beating his mother. The boy repeatedly plunged an 8-inch kitchen knife into the back of his father William Jones, 59.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6233064&page=1http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=6287379&page=1

 

[christine2448]

IMO it's ridiculous for them to discuss trying this child as an adult, was reading a law blog relating...

According to the CDC on child development, 8-year old children are developed enough to “… dress themselves, catch a ball more easily with only their hands, and tie their shoes…” Further, the National Network for Child Care reports that children at this age “…are beginning to see things from another child’s point of view, but they still have trouble understanding the feelings and needs of other people…” and they are just starting to “…learn [how to] to plan ahead and evaluate what they do.” Finally, the American Psychological Association reports that “…the part of the brain that is responsible for good judgment and the control of impulses—the pre-frontal cortex—is still immature; consequently, children of this age-period …. don’t have yet the capacity to fully control their impulses.”

http://blog.lawinfo.com/2008/11/14/children-charged-with-murder-should-they-be-tried-as-adults/
So you tell me - can an 8-year old child really premeditate and plan the murder of two adult men?

 

[SoobsinMI]

It is difficult to envision a child of this age doing this but it doesn't mean just because they were of this age they aren't capable of such an act. Unfortunately today we read about violent crimes being committed by younger and younger defendants.

I try not to let emotions sway me or the age of the defendant, any defendant, including this one. IMO, the things known thus far simply point to his guilt.

After reading the report of the trajectory of the bullets, as provided by Shadow, I'm really flummoxed how the bullets could have a downward trajectory. Not the head shots, as I would assume from reading what has been available, that those were done as they lay on the ground. However, any downward travelling bullets would be impossible for a child to inflict upon an adult, who was walking toward him (as has been suggested with regard to Tim.)

 

[oceanblueeyes]

After reading the report of the trajectory of the bullets, as provided by Shadow, I'm really flummoxed how the bullets could have a downward trajectory. Not the head shots, as I would assume from reading what has been available, that those were done as they lay on the ground. However, any downward traveling bullets would be impossible for a child to inflict upon an adult, who was walking toward him (as has been suggested with regard to Tim.)

I really don't think it is that hard, Soobs. That is where the DPS reenactment experts will come into play imo.

None of us know the position of the victims when fired upon. We don't know if Tim once being hit in the forearm crouched down lower trying to protect himself. If he lowered his body then when hit in the chest it would be at an downward angle imo. And the first bullet to his chest, which I do not believe was a fatal shot, mostly likely stunned him and he had searing pain, he may have dropped to his knees and was trying to stand again when he was shot in the chest again. That shot too would come from a downward angle imo.

Also I have been told that the 4 feet is off. It is supposed to be in the transcripts............ possibly on the intake form that he was not 48" but was actually 54 1/2 inches. So all that Tim had to be was in a lower angle from the boy. I find it very logical that anyone once being fired upon and hit would crouch lower hoping to protect themselves. IMO, there is no way that after being hit that Tim would just remain fully upright and casually walking toward the house, leaving himself fully exposed.

I have always thought he crouched down as low as he could trying to make it up against the house and out of the line of fire he may have thought was coming from the doorway. I believe that is why he was found to the left of the screen door.

imo

 

[SoobsinMI]

So all that Tim had to be was in a lower angle from the boy. I find it very logical that anyone once being fired upon and hit would crouch lower hoping to protect themselves. IMO, there is no way that after being hit that Tim would just remain fully upright and casually walking toward the house, leaving himself fully exposed.

I have always thought he crouched down as low as he could trying to make it up against the house and out of the line of fire he may have thought was coming from the doorway. I believe that is why he was found to the left of the screen door.

imo

It is confusing to me, and I am not an unintelligent woman. First, it was explained that it wouldn't be uncommon for Tim to be walking (not running) from the truck, INTO the line of fire, at the front door. Do you believe that he was crouched, and heading in the direction of the bullets (he obviously could tell the direction of fire.) If he believed the bullets were coming from the house, why walk in that direction at all? If he was hit in the chest with the first bullet, then he'd have known the direction. This has always been a question for me...why head in the direction of pain?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It is confusing to me, and I am not an unintelligent woman. First, it was explained that it wouldn't be uncommon for Tim to be walking (not running) from the truck, INTO the line of fire, at the front door. Do you believe that he was crouched, and heading in the direction of the bullets (he obviously could tell the direction of fire.) If he believed the bullets were coming from the house, why walk in that direction at all? If he was hit in the chest with the first bullet, then he'd have known the direction. This has always been a question for me...why head in the direction of pain?

IMOO, because he knew he was trapped. If he turned around then he knew the shooter didn't care if he shot him in the back of the head or in his back. I think he thought his only chance was to reach the wall of the house and flatten himself out up against it out of the range of fire, that he may have thought was coming from the doorway with the shooter right inside the doorway. I think that is why he was trying to come up on the left side of the screen door.

I don't think he lowered his body at first but when first hit he did, trying to protect himself the best he could, which unfortunately failed.



imo

 

[SoobsinMI]

IMOO, because he knew he was trapped. If he turned around then he knew the shooter didn't care if he shot him in the back of the head or in his back. I think he thought his only chance was to reach the wall of the house and flatten himself out up against it out of the range of fire, that he may have thought was coming from the doorway with the shooter right inside the doorway.

I don't think he lowered his body at first but when first hit he did, trying to protect himself the best he could, which unfortunately failed.

imo

He got out of the passenger side door, right? I think I would have put the truck between me and the shooter, before I tried the house. And he was found directly in front of the door, not the side of the house. :::sigh::: All this speculating is frustrating for me, when they could just release all the reports.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

He got out of the passenger side door, right? I think I would have put the truck between me and the shooter, before I tried the house. And he was found directly in front of the door, not the side of the house. :::sigh::: All this speculating is frustrating for me, when they could just release all the reports.

I think it was said that he got out on his side. The door was cracked open on the passenger side because Vinnie was expected to come right back out iirc,

He was found at a diagonal angle on the left side of the metal door with his head striking the door that swings open to the left.

All of this was happening so fast. All of it happened within 24 feet of the door. I think Tim was desperately trying to save his own life but was also trying to come to the aide of the boy.

It is hard to say what someone should have done when they have never experienced a situation as dire as this.

Sometimes when life threatening events happens the mind shuts down some and the brain slows to a crawl imo.

imo

 

[shadowraiths]

IMO it's ridiculous for them to discuss trying this child as an adult, was reading a law blog relating...

According to the CDC on child development, 8-year old children are developed enough to “… dress themselves, catch a ball more easily with only their hands, and tie their shoes…” Further, the National Network for Child Care reports that children at this age “…are beginning to see things from another child’s point of view, but they still have trouble understanding the feelings and needs of other people…” and they are just starting to “…learn [how to] to plan ahead and evaluate what they do.” Finally, the American Psychological Association reports that “…the part of the brain that is responsible for good judgment and the control of impulses—the pre-frontal cortex—is still immature; consequently, children of this age-period …. don’t have yet the capacity to fully control their impulses.”

http://blog.lawinfo.com/2008/11/14/children-charged-with-murder-should-they-be-tried-as-adults/
So you tell me - can an 8-year old child really premeditate and plan the murder of two adult men?

This is quite true and even most psych 101 students are aware of the developmental arguments that can be made to refute LE's version of events. In fact, this is my major contention that this boy could not have possibly premeditated the murders as portrayed by law enforcement. Furthermore, from my read of Det. Matrese Avila's report, I admittedly do not see how the "so-called" confession will even remotely hold up in court. For example, following are a few excerpts from report that clearly demonstrate not only leading questioning but the case of a child who is attempting to please the adults by saying whatever he thinks they want to hear.

"I told him that some people saw some things and that I need him to be truthful with me. I asked him which guns he shot. He said he thought it was his gun. I asked him where his dad was when he shot the gun. He said upstairs. I asked [redacted] what his dad was doing and he said lying on the ground. I asked him where Tim was." (page 8, para 7)

"I told [redacted] how about if we had somebody tell us that he ([redacted]) might have shot him. He said shot who? I said dad and Tim on accident. [redacted] said shoot my dad and Tim." (page 9, para 4)

"Detective Neckel told him it was a really bad accident and she thinks that [redacted] is really scared. She said she thinks it is the scariest thing that ever happened to him. She told [redacted] she needed him to tell us the truth so he didn't have to be in bigger trouble.

[redacted] then said he thinks he shot his dad because he was suffering -so I might have shot him -I didn't want him to suffer. He said then I went outside and saw Tim and I think the gun went off at that time, cause he (Tim) was shaking and then I went upstairs and I saw my dad. I think I shot him because he was suffering so I might have shot him.

I said to [redacted] then you were home before your dad got home. I told him to tell us the truth. I told him sometimes you can lie but this is a time when you need to tell the truth. I again asked [redacted] if he was in the home when his dad got home. He said he thought he was." (page 9, para 6-8)
​

 

[fran]

FWIW, I'm still reading the linked document. I believe I may have a few comments when I'm done. If you're interested, this should take a while to go over,...............INTERESTING STUFF!

Just sayin'
fran


http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...braryManager/upload/dps binders 2 red (1).pdf

ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

 

[Salem]

After reading the report of the trajectory of the bullets, as provided by Shadow, I'm really flummoxed how the bullets could have a downward trajectory. Not the head shots, as I would assume from reading what has been available, that those were done as they lay on the ground. However, any downward travelling bullets would be impossible for a child to inflict upon an adult, who was walking toward him (as has been suggested with regard to Tim.)

ITA! And thank you Shadow for your excellent post.

I drew my self a map based on the pictures posted of the crime scene. Given that there was only an approximately 8-11 minute gap between the call on Tim's cellphone and the 911 call and adding to that the trajectory of the bullets - I don't see how it is possible that the child did this. The child was shorter than both men, so he would have had to have been above them. You can see where that is possible with the shooting of VR if the child was on the stairs but then how do you account for the shots in the back? Illogical.

Than, as far as TR goes, it was speculated that the child may have been hiding in the bush outside the front porch. This definitely would put him lower than TR making the bullets go up, not down.

Also, if OBE's speculation that the child used his knees to steady the gun and reload, then it is just not possible.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Drawing a map, based on the pictures that were published, locating the truck the men were in and their paths - there is no way the child did this. It is not physically possible. I don't care what the child said in his confession. I have read enough to understand that when a child is questioned and lied to and led to believe that no matter what he/she says, the questioner is going to call them a liar, which to an 8-year old, is a very bad thing, then that 8-year old will tell you what he/she thinks the questioner wants to hear. It is important to an 8-year old that most adults think they are a good kid and if the child has to lie so you will think well of him, then so be it. He lies.

Okay - some really long sentences here , sorry to rant.

I'm praying for this boy. I don't believe he did this and I hope the truth is found. The bullet report just enforces my opinion with good science.

Salem

 

[OrdinaryLife]

FWIW, I'm still reading the linked document. I believe I may have a few comments when I'm done. If you're interested, this should take a while to go over,...............INTERESTING STUFF!

Just sayin'
fran


http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...braryManager/upload/dps binders 2 red (1).pdf

ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

I have been reading the same document (as well as others) and am finding them to be very illuminating. *Very* interesting to say the least... Be ack when finished.

 

[Salem]

FWIW, I'm still reading the linked document. I believe I may have a few comments when I'm done. If you're interested, this should take a while to go over,...............INTERESTING STUFF!

Just sayin'
fran


http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...braryManager/upload/dps binders 2 red (1).pdf

ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

I'm reading also - up to page 100 almost and then I have to take a break. BUT - who is the Nichole chick? I don't remember her being mentioned before. Am I just having some misfiring synapses? What is her role?

TIA,

Salem

 

[OrdinaryLife]

IMO it's ridiculous for them to discuss trying this child as an adult, was reading a law blog relating...

According to the CDC on child development, 8-year old children are developed enough to “… dress themselves, catch a ball more easily with only their hands, and tie their shoes…” Further, the National Network for Child Care reports that children at this age “…are beginning to see things from another child’s point of view, but they still have trouble understanding the feelings and needs of other people…” and they are just starting to “…learn [how to] to plan ahead and evaluate what they do.” Finally, the American Psychological Association reports that “…the part of the brain that is responsible for good judgment and the control of impulses—the pre-frontal cortex—is still immature; consequently, children of this age-period …. don’t have yet the capacity to fully control their impulses.”

http://blog.lawinfo.com/2008/11/14/children-charged-with-murder-should-they-be-tried-as-adults/
So you tell me - can an 8-year old child really premeditate and plan the murder of two adult men?

Been there, and argued that. Apparently, there are some who really believe this 8 year old is that articulate.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

ITA! And thank you Shadow for your excellent post.

I drew my self a map based on the pictures posted of the crime scene. Given that there was only an approximately 8-11 minute gap between the call on Tim's cellphone and the 911 call and adding to that the trajectory of the bullets - I don't see how it is possible that the child did this. The child was shorter than both men, so he would have had to have been above them. You can see where that is possible with the shooting of VR if the child was on the stairs but then how do you account for the shots in the back? Illogical.

Than, as far as TR goes, it was speculated that the child may have been hiding in the bush outside the front porch. This definitely would put him lower than TR making the bullets go up, not down.

Also, if OBE's speculation that the child used his knees to steady the gun and reload, then it is just not possible.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Drawing a map, based on the pictures that were published, locating the truck the men were in and their paths - there is no way the child did this. It is not physically possible. I don't care what the child said in his confession. I have read enough to understand that when a child is questioned and lied to and led to believe that no matter what he/she says, the questioner is going to call them a liar, which to an 8-year old, is a very bad thing, then that 8-year old will tell you what he/she thinks the questioner wants to hear. It is important to an 8-year old that most adults think they are a good kid and if the child has to lie so you will think well of him, then so be it. He lies.

Okay - some really long sentences here , sorry to rant.

I'm praying for this boy. I don't believe he did this and I hope the truth is found. The bullet report just enforces my opinion with good science.

Salem

I don't know if he used his knee to prop. Heck I don't even really know if these were the actual clothing he wore or the ones found in the trash. I am just speculating.

But it isn't impossible Salem, even, hunters, soldiers and Marines do it. They will have one of their legs tucked on the ground or hard surface and then put the other leg out to use as a gun prop to give them better control when shooting.

We will see if he has any GSR on his backside and if it is in general nondescript areas since he said he got it because the house was filled with white smoke. But if the GSR was found in the chest areas where he would hold the gun up or sleeve or cuff then to me that shows more than likely he was the shooter.

imoo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I really don't think it is that hard, Soobs. That is where the DPS reenactment experts will come into play imo.

None of us know the position of the victims when fired upon. We don't know if Tim once being hit in the forearm crouched down lower trying to protect himself. If he lowered his body then when hit in the chest it would be at an downward angle imo. And the first bullet to his chest, which I do not believe was a fatal shot, mostly likely stunned him and he had searing pain, he may have dropped to his knees and was trying to stand again when he was shot in the chest again. That shot too would come from a downward angle imo.

Also I have been told that the 4 feet is off. It is supposed to be in the transcripts............ possibly on the intake form that he was not 48" but was actually 54 1/2 inches. So all that Tim had to be was in a lower angle from the boy. I find it very logical that anyone once being fired upon and hit would crouch lower hoping to protect themselves. IMO, there is no way that after being hit that Tim would just remain fully upright and casually walking toward the house, leaving himself fully exposed.

I have always thought he crouched down as low as he could trying to make it up against the house and out of the line of fire he may have thought was coming from the doorway. I believe that is why he was found to the left of the screen door.

imo

Wait. Are you arguing that a 4'5" tall boy actually had an advantage to pulling this off because of angles of the bullets found in both bodies? The speed of loading a single shooter Chipmunk rifle, firing in rapid consession after reloading one bullet at a time, 10 shots into 2 adult victims, and now the child's height comes into play.

I don't think so. Just sayin' and imo....

 

[fran]

I'm reading also - up to page 100 almost and then I have to take a break. BUT - who is the Nichole chick? I don't remember her being mentioned before. Am I just having some misfiring synapses? What is her role?

TIA,

Salem

Nicole is Vince's wife's friend, who lives down the street and the child said she visits sometimes. She's younger than his step-mom.

I THINK she was supposed to be at the house that day, waiting for the boy to come home from school. However, it's been reported she was at some type of school practice. I believe this was from someone who'd read some documents we didn't have, perhaps it's in these when we get through them. IF I find anything further, I'll let you know.

Interesting, Tim's drug charges weren't 10 years ago, they were only 1 year prior to his murder.

Augustine Logan's name pops up again as well...................

Off to read, check you later,
fran

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I don't know if he used his knee to prop. Heck I don't even really know if these were the actual clothing he wore or the ones found in the trash. I am just speculating.

But it isn't impossible Salem, even, hunters, soldiers and Marines do it. They will have one of their legs tucked on the ground or hard surface and then put the other leg out to use as a gun prop to give them better control when shooting.

We will see if he has any GSR on his backside and if it is in general nondescript areas since he said he got it because the house was filled with white smoke. But if the GSR was found in the chest areas where he would hold the gun up or sleeve or cuff then to me that shows more than likely he was the shooter.

imoo

I disagree. This child is not an experience shooter like a hunters, soldiers, or even Marines (Marines???).

imo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Nicole is Vince's wife's friend, who lives down the street and the child said she visits sometimes. She's younger than his step-mom.

I THINK she was supposed to be at the house that day, waiting for the boy to come home from school. However, it's been reported she was at some type of school practice. I believe this was from someone who'd read some documents we didn't have, perhaps it's in these when we get through them. IF I find anything further, I'll let you know.

Interesting, Tim's drug charges weren't 10 years ago, they were only 1 year prior to his murder.

Augustine Logan's name pops up again as well...................

Off to read, check you later,
fran

Yep. 2007...

 

[Linda7NJ]

Wait. Are you arguing that a 4'5" tall boy actually had an advantage to pulling this off because of angles of the bullets found in both bodies? The speed of loading a single shooter Chipmunk rifle, firing in rapid consession after reloading one bullet at a time, 10 shots into 2 adult victims, and now the child's height comes into play.

I don't think so. Just sayin' and imo....

IMO it doesn't matter if he was 4' or 4'5" tall, the ADVANTAGE was the boy was the only one with a gun and he had the element of surprise!

Vince was trapped in a stairway and Tim was clueless..until it was too late.

imo