AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[oceanblueeyes]

Well, we know that a plea deal was offered by prosecution, once, already. My guess is that if no jail time is required, the defense will agree to it. What have they got to lose? The child is already out on furlough with his mother, and REMAINS on furlough. If he pleads as a juvenile, with no incarceration, he has lost nothing, his file will be sealed as an adult, and he can remain with his mother. And, the court action is dismissed.

If in fact, the deal includes no jail time, I'm thinking that is not much of a "deal" for the prosecution.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18702941/detail.html

Oh he has a lot to lose. If he pleas he is admitting that he indeed was the murderer of these two men. Incarcerated or not, he will never live that down. There are worst things in life than serving time in a juvenile detention. People tend to have long memories, especially about two murders.

His records may be sealed when he is an adult but those records are not sealed to LE should he re-offend when he becomes an adult. We knew all about Joesph Duncan's past juvenile record when it came to light he had struck again as an adult.

I do not believe the DA will accept a plea of no time served. He stressed this case was not only about this boy but in the fairness of justice for the two murdered victims as well. I think the DA will demand that he be remanded to a mental treatment facility.

imoo

 

[christine2448]

I pray the evidence comes out he DID NOT do this, although, I am just not sure. Where is the dag gum smiley with the confused guy swaying on the fence???

My gut is saying it was the child, sadly, but I have been wrong before.

 

[SoobsinMI]

"Jail" would include juvenile incarceration. They can't put a juvenile in "prison" so I believe that is what the defense attorney is talking about. I don't think they'll put him in a mental health facility for years on end, either, as that would amount to the same thing. Although, I do believe he needs therapy and I hope he gets it.

 

[fran]

Well, speculating can take us all to next week's hearing and we could all be wrong. We know that the DA offered a deal once before and the def turned it down. I'm hoping the def isn't going to accept a plea if they know their client is innocent. That would be so unfair to the child as well as the victims.

I'm still reading over the voluminous documents just released. I haven't found much of anything that screams the child did it. Course, that's just me.

JMHO
fran

 

[christine2448]

Well, speculating can take us all to next week's hearing and we could all be wrong. We know that the DA offered a deal once before and the def turned it down. I'm hoping the def isn't going to accept a plea if they know their client is innocent. That would be so unfair to the child as well as the victims.

I'm still reading over the voluminous documents just released. I haven't found much of anything that screams the child did it. Course, that's just me.

JMHO
fran

Hiya Fran! Can you give me a link? I am so tired! I looked but my eyes are crossin! :blushing:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well, speculating can take us all to next week's hearing and we could all be wrong. We know that the DA offered a deal once before and the def turned it down. I'm hoping the def isn't going to accept a plea if they know their client is innocent. That would be so unfair to the child as well as the victims.

I'm still reading over the voluminous documents just released. I haven't found much of anything that screams the child did it. Course, that's just me.

JMHO
fran

IMO the rest of the forensics are back and the defense really has no choice.

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped ~

No matter how this ends, I think the people of St. John and the victims's families deserve to know who did these crimes and see them held accountable. A plea will give them that peace.

If the plea is accepted I sure hope that it includes mandatory mental health treatment. He needs to be rehabilitate as much as humanely possible so that society will not hear of him again when he is let out in our society.

imoo

I really disagree with the bolded statement. A plea deal, in my opinion, will not give any one any peace, except maybe the boy's mother and grandparents. While I do not believe the child did this, I think if the prosecution has the evidence to prove he did then there should be a trial. All a plea deal is going to do is confuse the masses and keep the boy from having to own up to what really happened.

I also think if the prosecution is agreeing to plea, then the prosecution does not have the evidence to support the boy's guilt. The defense may also think that allowing the boy to plead will ease the boy's burden of having to face a trial. However, it is my opinion that if the child is innocent and the defense believes in his innocent, then the child should go to trial.

I firmly believe that if the child is innocent and is not given the opportunity to clear his name, the long-term results will be more traumatic than the murders have been on him. AND if he is guilty, then he should be appropriately punished. If the child really did this, then he should not be allowed to walk free or circumvent the system with minimal time in a mental facility.

Also - if the kid really did it, I want to know why. WHY, WHY, WHY?

Salem

 

[fran]

Well, we know that a plea deal was offered by prosecution, once, already. My guess is that if no jail time is required, the defense will agree to it. What have they got to lose? The child is already out on furlough with his mother, and REMAINS on furlough. If he pleads as a juvenile, with no incarceration, he has lost nothing, his file will be sealed as an adult, and he can remain with his mother. And, the court action is dismissed.

If in fact, the deal includes no jail time, I'm thinking that is not much of a "deal" for the prosecution.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18702941/detail.html

Sure it's a deal for the prosecution. The pros can save face for bumbling the case, St Johns PD saves face for bumbling the investigation and interrogation, and they can stop investigating the first murder in that town in 20 years. They probably would never solve the crime anyway.

IMHO, this child's going to need therapy anyway, because of the inhumane way St. Johns treated him for three months, so why not. IF his record is expunged etc.....sad for him though, going through life with a cloud over his head, but he'll get medical treatment AND gets to live with his bio mom. Maybe they can work something out and let the child moved to where the mom has been living.

Too sad for the victims though, IMHO...................It's quite POSSIBLE the REAL killer(s) are going to get away with murder!

JMHO
fran

 

[Salem]

Nicole is Vince's wife's friend, who lives down the street and the child said she visits sometimes. She's younger than his step-mom.

I THINK she was supposed to be at the house that day, waiting for the boy to come home from school. However, it's been reported she was at some type of school practice. I believe this was from someone who'd read some documents we didn't have, perhaps it's in these when we get through them. IF I find anything further, I'll let you know.

Interesting, Tim's drug charges weren't 10 years ago, they were only 1 year prior to his murder.

Augustine Logan's name pops up again as well...................

Off to read, check you later,
fran

Thank you Fran. Yes, the docs are interesting. I am really concerned about the beating and pulling of the hair on Tiffany's niece. There should have been charges. Also the beating of the young man that brought her home by Tim and his buddy.

I wish some of the writing was clearer on the copies. It looks like there might be some good stuff - but I can't read it

Salem

 

[Salem]

Christine - the links in Fran's quoted post, below. It is post #390 on page 17 (I think)

Salem

FWIW, I'm still reading the linked document. I believe I may have a few comments when I'm done. If you're interested, this should take a while to go over,...............INTERESTING STUFF!

Just sayin'
fran


http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...braryManager/upload/dps binders 2 red (1).pdf

ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

 

[fran]

Thank you Fran. Yes, the docs are interesting. I am really concerned about the beating and pulling of the hair on Tiffany's niece. There should have been charges. Also the beating of the young man that brought her home by Tim and his buddy.

I wish some of the writing was clearer on the copies. It looks like there might be some good stuff - but I can't read it

Salem

Gosh, I hate to speak ill of the deceased, but I don't believe Tim was that nice of a person. His wife seems a little rough around the edges, as well, after reading those documents.

I sure hope whatever conclusion comes for this case, the attorney is thinking of what's best for this child. I would hate to see him do something, just because it was easier.

JMHO
fran

 

[SoobsinMI]

~Respectfully snipped ~

The defense may also think that allowing the boy to plead will ease the boy's burden of having to face a trial. However, it is my opinion that if the child is innocent and the defense believes in his innocent, then the child should go to trial.

I firmly believe that if the child is innocent and is not given the opportunity to clear his name, the long-term results will be more traumatic than the murders have been on him. AND if he is guilty, then he should be appropriately punished. If the child really did this, then he should not be allowed to walk free or circumvent the system with minimal time in a mental facility.

Also - if the kid really did it, I want to know why. WHY, WHY, WHY?

Salem

Salem, I'd really love to know WHY also. I don't know if we ever really will. As to innocence vs. plea....there are adults who plead out, and still proclaim their innocence. I don't know that if the boy is innocent, it would be easier for him to go to trial. We've heard he's having a very hard time now, being incarcerated. Even if he's innocent, I have to believe that getting out now (he's out now anyway) as opposed to sitting through a trial, would be in his best psychological interest. And while people may "never forget" his name, the boys who killed the child in England many years ago, changed their names after getting out of prison.

It's a very difficult case. It's very sad as well, on all fronts. I feel for the families of the victims. And I don't believe this child is the devil's spawn.

 

[shadowraiths]

Hiya Fran! Can you give me a link? I am so tired! I looked but my eyes are crossin! :blushing:

I'm not fran, but... the majority of the docs can be found via [click]=> the google machine <=[click]

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Sure it's a deal for the prosecution. The pros can save face for bumbling the case, St Johns PD saves face for bumbling the investigation and interrogation, and they can stop investigating the first murder in that town in 20 years. They probably would never solve the crime anyway.

IMHO, this child's going to need therapy anyway, because of the inhumane way St. Johns treated him for three months, so why not. IF his record is expunged etc.....sad for him though, going through life with a cloud over his head, but he'll get medical treatment AND gets to live with his bio mom. Maybe they can work something out and let the child moved to where the mom has been living.

Too sad for the victims though, IMHO...................It's quite POSSIBLE the REAL killer(s) are going to get away with murder!

JMHO
fran

Yes, it looks like the killer is going to walk free as a bird.

Surely his attorney will not plead if he is sure he is innocent.

IMO that would be a worst injustice to this boy than some have claimed the SJPD did to the boy. That admission of guilt will hang over his head the rest of his life. No longer are juvenile cases kept confidential. The attorney has to know if the boy pleads the media will have it out on the airwaves in 5 minutes and it will reverberate all across the nation.

If they don't have the evidence against him, I think his lawyer will refuse the plea..... for if he pleas that is an admission of guilt and many times in certain cases if they plead they have to get up and admit their acts to the Judge.

imoo

 

[shadowraiths]

Well, we know that a plea deal was offered by prosecution, once, already. My guess is that if no jail time is required, the defense will agree to it. What have they got to lose?

Quite a bit actually. For example, he would have a conviction on his record.

Regardless, from my read, they would do much better to refuse the plea. After all, the competency hearing will most likely result in a not competent to stand trial, nor can competency be restored within the proscribed time frame: simply due to his age and developmental cognition. In which case, the charges will be dismissed "with prejudice" (charges cannot be refiled later). Which, btw, is why the prosecutor has also filed a motion to drop one of the murder charges "without prejudice" (charges can be refiled in the future). Imho, the plea deal is simply another avenue toward an end goal... for the prosecution.

 

[shadowraiths]

If they don't have the evidence against him, I think his lawyer will refuse the plea..... for if he pleas that is an admission of guilt and many times in certain cases if they plead they have to get up and admit their acts to the Judge.

I would def be interested to see what type of plea (i.e., alford? nolo contendre?) they might be offering.

 

[fran]

Yes, it looks like the killer is going to walk free as a bird.

Surely his attorney will not plead if he is sure he is innocent.

IMO that would be a worst injustice to this boy than some have claimed the SJPD did to the boy. That admission of guilt will hang over his head the rest of his life. No longer are juvenile cases kept confidential. The attorney has to know if the boy pleads the media will have it out on the airwaves in 5 minutes and it will reverberate all across the nation.

If they don't have the evidence against him, I think his lawyer will refuse the plea..... for if he pleas that is an admission of guilt and many times in certain cases if they plead they have to get up and admit their acts to the Judge.

imoo

ehhhhh............the St Johns PD and the county pros already have the child's name and everything else about him, all across the internet.

I hope the def refuses to deal.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IMO the rest of the forensics are back and the defense really has no choice.

I agree. I think the last report came in yesterday from DPS and was turned over to the defense.

Remember this plea deal offer is not new. The DA offered it months ago and Brewer/Wood said they wanted to wait until the evidence all came back and would then consider a plea deal. Well imo, the time has come. It is in and the defense attorneys have now plead the case imo. The hearing is just a formality where the Judge can rule on it or deny the plea.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

ehhhhh............the St Johns PD and the county pros already have the child's name and everything else about him, all across the internet.

I hope the def refuses to deal.

JMHO
fran

I just read an article that they have already plead the deal and they will present it to the Judge at the hearing.

Let me go look for the link.

BRB

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/st-johns-local-news-021209-change-of-plea.cbaf956.html

azfamily.com


Plea deal struck with 9-yr-old St. Johns boy
azfamily.com

Judge considers dismissal of 1 murder charge against child
Documents show St. Johns boy had threatened to kill father

ST. JOHNS -- 3TV has learned that a child murder suspect in St. Johns will be changing his plea.

Court was vacated Thursday, and will reconvene next Thursday where attorneys will announce the change of plea.

The official order in the St Johns case was filed at 2:20pm Feb. 12th and states the hearing continued from Feb. 12 and reset for a change of plea on Feb. 19th at 10:00am.

The child murder suspect is currently on furlough with his mother and will remain on furlough.