AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[shadowraiths]

Or seriously amiss with him.

Or... just perhaps he was a normal kid who responded to the influence of the adults in his life? For example, see page 61 of the dps report wherein it is stated, "[redacted] killed dad & tim. bio-mom put up to it" in response to the question "What knowledge do you have of the incident/crime?").

 

[Fairy1]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,492047,00.html

Note the comment about the boy's intelligence not allowing him to be fit for a trial. Again, I wonder if he was in a special ed program. There has been no comment about his intelligence until this one. This might also account for the reason that VR asked his priest if he thought the boy should have a gun. I thought this discussion with a priest was strange.

I think that was a poor choice of words. I don't think they mean to refer to his actual intelligence level, but the fact that he is such a young child and cannot contribute to his own defense due to his age.

 

[SoobsinMI]

Autopsies.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...cumentLibraryManager/upload/romeroautopsy.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...cumentLibraryManager/upload/romeroautopsy.pdf

imo

Thanks, OBE. My old laptop died three weeks ago, and I lost a lot of links.

 

[SoobsinMI]

Or... just perhaps he was a normal kid who responded to the influence of the adults in his life? For example, see page 61 of the dps report wherein it is stated, "[redacted] killed dad & tim. bio-mom put up to it" in response to the question "What knowledge do you have of the incident/crime?").

Actually, I believe that answer was in response to question number 11, "what rumors have you heard about this case."

 

[Salem]

I'm conflicted about this plea deal. I have no more comments until we see what the deal is, but I admit, that in general just the talk of the deal makes me sad

Salem

 

[southcitymom]

.....Now more than ever I would love to see how the experts assessed this boy and what they found.

Me too - I wonder if we ever will - or if, because of his age, those findings will be kept private.

 

[southcitymom]

I think that was a poor choice of words. I don't think they mean to refer to his actual intelligence level, but the fact that he is such a young child and cannot contribute to his own defense due to his age.

I agree with you Fairy. Just listening to the videotape of this child - I think he was probably above average intelligence. Also, we know he did well in school.
No child this age is mature enough to contribute to his own defense.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm conflicted about this plea deal. I have no more comments until we see what the deal is, but I admit, that in general just the talk of the deal makes me sad

Salem

The issue of the plea deal seems to be a complex issue to me. First, since Eryn is his custodian, she would have to be advised of such a deal and be for it imo. Imo, on her ABC interview about the case, I felt even then she knew her son was guilty of doing this.

While the boy may be age incompetent to understand the proceeding in a trial and if that is so, then how can JR accept this plea deal that seems to already been struck but needs to be finalized in a court setting next week?

Now imo, Judge Roca once having all the evidence back knows this boy is guilty of these crimes and knows the boy also knows he is guilty. I don't think the incompetency issue was ever about him not knowing the wrongfulness of his acts.

So maybe that is why the experts are still going to appear in court. To give their opinions that he does have the intelligence level to know the wrongfulness of his acts and does understand that he is guilty, therefore the entering a plea of guilt, is to be accepted.

imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm going to withhold my opinion on the plea deal until we actually hear the details. I can see the def taking it to avoid the ordeal of a trial for a child who, by all accounts, is already traumatized. Especially if part of the deal is to have the record expunged at some point. Then again, the evidence may point to the fact that he is guilty. Then again, maybe the evidence is inconclusive and would force a trial. IDK.

I sure wish the canvassing reports were easier to read! I think there may be info in some of them that might shed some light here. But the Tim Romans info was very enlightening. He (and his wife!) were no strangers to LE. This guy was no saint. I am curious as to what happened with his drug charges in 2007. Possession with intent to distribute is no small charge. Not to mention resisting arrest., breaking into his truck, etc. WTH?

"by all accounts traumatized" ???? WHAT? The kid was cool, cold, calculating, arrogant and manipulative. I see ZERO evidence this kid was traumatized by anything.

He may have been a little surprised he wouldn't be out of detention in a few days as he had thought. But traumatized? No way!

imo

 

[southcitymom]

"by all accounts traumatized" ???? WHAT? The kid was cool, cold, calculating, arrogant and manipulative. I see ZERO evidence this kid was traumatized by anything.

He may have been a little surprised he wouldn't be out of detention in a few days as he had thought. But traumatized? No way!

imo

I think he did this, but I also think he is traumatized on a number of levels - and I think there is "evidence" of this - the rocking in Court, asking for a kiss from his mother, reports from people at the detention center.

Of course, one could say - if we believe he's a sociopath - those things are all an act and he only cares about himself.

I personally think murder always traumatizes the murderer ("sociopath" or not). I also don't care what label the psych community puts on him, no 8-year-old in the world is fully capable of grasping the enormity of what he did. IMHO

 

[OrdinaryLife]

~Respectively snipped~

I also don't care what label the psych community puts on him, no 8-year-old in the world is fully capable of grasping the enormity of what he did. IMHO

Absolutely agree. No matter what my own feelings are concerning this case.

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped
I also don't care what label the psych community puts on him, no 8-year-old in the world is fully capable of grasping the enormity of what he did. IMHO

He would have to care first!

 

[oceanblueeyes]

"by all accounts traumatized" ???? WHAT? The kid was cool, cold, calculating, arrogant and manipulative. I see ZERO evidence this kid was traumatized by anything.

He may have been a little surprised he wouldn't be out of detention in a few days as he had thought. But traumatized? No way!

imo

His demeanor in the interview was quite chilling to me. So cool, chatty and engaging.

Imo, children who are abused don't tend to be outgoing. They are quiet, shy, withdrawn and have poor verbal skills. This kid seemed to have it all. He wasn't kept isolated. He partook in so many things with others. He was a leader in school and could sway the other students his way. He was active in sports and did all sorts of hobbies that placed him among others and he was in a social setting (church, reunions, hunting, fishing, weddings, barbecues) often imo. He swam, played and wrestled with the neighborhood kids and he seemed to have all the latest kids things that all kids want.

I have watched on such shows as Dateline, where youths killed their parents and when they are interviewed even years later, they have no emotional response to what they did when they murdered their parents. They have even said, when asked, if they think about their parents and what happened to them and they have replied, as if they are bored, and told the interviewer that they really never think about it.

I saw no traumatized child in that video. I did see one that could lie with ease and I think that was a pattern he had for quite awhile. Pathological liars always believe their lies will be bought by everyone.

imoo

 

[Openmind]

Or seriously amiss with him.

imo

I have worked with children all my adult life. I have encountered children that are habitual liars, steal, that were violent and abusive -- some to themselves, and many categorized with ongoing behavioral problems. I had two that were pyromaniacs. One set his house on fire and another set many fires before he caught setting an office building on fire twenty miles from his home. Not one didn't have some environmental influence that helped create their condition. They were not amiss without some form of neglect or abuse contributing to them being amiss. Not one.

I think the boy did this crime, and I hope they get him the help he needs. Children aren't broken until we break them. It doesn't mean anyone had to deliberately neglect or abuse this child, but, if he did this, there were many behaviors being overlooked that might have prevented this. Even if he planned this crime, I don't think he has the maturity to understand the ture ongoing outcome of his crime beyond the death of his victims. He didn't connive or manipulate the police or the courts to manage the results how his actions. When he gets the help he needs, the reality of his actions will be something he has to live with for the rest of his life.

 

[Openmind]

Imo, children who are abused don't tend to be outgoing. They are quiet, shy, withdrawn and have poor verbal skills.

Different kids have different coping skills. You'd be surprised how well kids cover up neglect. It would be fairly easy to spot a neglected child if all victims were quiet, shy, withdrawn, and had poor verbal skills.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I have worked with children all my adult life. I have encountered children that are habitual liars, steal, that were violent and abusive -- some to themselves, and many categorized with ongoing behavioral problems. I had two that were pyromaniacs. One set his house on fire and another set many fires before he caught setting an office building on fire twenty miles from his home. Not one didn't have some environmental influence that helped create their condition. They were not amiss without some form of neglect or abuse contributing to them being amiss. Not one.

I think the boy did this crime, and I hope they get him the help he needs. Children aren't broken until we break them. It doesn't mean anyone had to deliberately neglect or abuse this child, but, if he did this, there were many behaviors being overlooked that might have prevented this. Even if he planned this crime, I don't think he has the maturity to understand the true ongoing outcome of his crime beyond the death of his victims. He didn't connive or manipulate the police or the courts to manage the results how his actions. When he gets the help he needs, the reality of his actions will be something he has to live with for the rest of his life.

I too have worked with children for 20 years. What you said is absolutely correct and I concur. A child like this one, IMO is very very rare indeed. He's NOTHING like all of the other children you've worked with.

In those twenty years, I've come across very few, three to be exact. Only ONE was was a murderer at the age of 7. That child also had no abuse of any kind in his history. He was every bit as remorseless, cunning, manipulative and cold as this child. Yet he was extremely intelligent and articulate and charming.

Be thankful they're so rare and you haven't met one.

 

[southcitymom]

He would have to care first!

Even an 8-year-old who cared (and I'm not implying that this one didn't - my jury is out on that) would be incapable of grasping the enormity of murder, IMHO!

 

[shadowraiths]

My contention regarding this case is that I absolutely and completely disagree with the view point that this child premeditated and executed the murders in a cold and calculating way.

For one, this view point is simply impossible due to physiological limitations—the frontal cortex, which, among other things, regulate abstract thought and impulse control, is not even remotely fully developed. Furthermore, and dep upon his developmental trajectory he is either still in, or recently emerging from the ME stage. This stage, btw, in an adult, is considered to be "sociopathic." Yet it is not only expected, but quite normal in young children as they move along the developmental path towards socialization. And as much as some may not like the idea, socialization, in and of itself, is a process, not an innate way of being. And finally, he does not have enough experiential (social, emotional, or otherwise) development to fully appreciate the gravity of his actions.

That being said, afaics, this is an extremely tragic case, for both the victims and this child. While it is easy paint this little boy from our adult world view, and then castigate him. And even be rather gleeful with the idea of him being not only tried as an adult but severely punished in an adult way (an eye for an eye, no? Well, that would of course require the death penalty in this case. After all, he allegedly murdered not one, but two men).

And we wonder why our children kill...

Imo, the biggest tragedy that has yet to play out (and that may very well play out in a devastatingly violent way), is that our society, by and large, really does not give two shakes about this child—that is outside of the sensational aspect. In fact, I am of the contention that the whole, "we're gonna get him therapeutic help" is nothing more than lip service for a public that basically does not care what happens to him. That is, as long as "the kid" is put somewhere... You know, "out of sight and out of mind"? OBE's comment exemplifies this sentiment.

As long as he pleads guilty even to a lessor charge, I don't really care what happens to him in the future. He doesn't live in my state nor does his mother.

Sadly, I suspect this is the rule and not the exception when it comes to not only this case, but other cases that involve young children. And I admittedly find this to be the most troubling.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Different kids have different coping skills. You'd be surprised how well kids cover up neglect. It would be fairly easy to spot a neglected child if all victims were quiet, shy, withdrawn, and had poor verbal skills.

I wouldn't be surprised. I covered up the abuse or tired to, as well as I could for a child of my young age. Yet all the red flags were still there and like many times when they do exist, they were ignored or others blindly looked away and refused to believe what was right in front of them.

imoo

 

[Razzle]

I wouldn't be surprised. I covered up the abuse or tired to, as well as I could for a child of my young age. Yet all the red flags were still there and like many times when they do exist, they were ignored or others blindly looked away and refused to believe what was right in front of them.

imoo

And another child in your circumstance may have reacted differently.

I came from an abusive home and I was very popular and out going. My Brother was withdrawn and shy.

You cannot make generalizations when it comes to how a child will respond to abuse. Even siblings from the same family.