AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[Openmind]

Based on your experience, do you feel it was odd that his GAL was not present at his plea hearing and appeared to have learned of the plea deal after the fact? I'm NO expert, but is that the way it's supposed to go?

Absolutely, but the scheduling and managing my cases are much different from this case. My cases are not in criminal court. I do write a monthly report that the judge has on court day. I remember Shasta Groene's CASA submitted a memorandum to the court in regard to her appearing at her attacker's trial. I am surprised this boy's CASA did not do at least that. But this court is not overly interested in allowing anyone but his lawyer to have any contact with this child. His own mother has no say. It is very odd that this nine year old boy seems to be doing this alone without anyone intimately related to him looking out for his interest. He is a minor. I wonder if this man has just been appointed as his GAL. Hasn't his name just surfaced?

 

[Fairy1]

Absolutely, but the scheduling and managing my cases are much different from this case. My cases are not in criminal court. I do write a monthly report that the judge has on court day. I remember Shasta Groene's CASA submitted a memorandum to the court in regard to her appearing at her attacker's trial. I am surprised this boy's CASA did not do at least that. But this court is not overly interested in allowing anyone but his lawyer to have any contact with this child. His own mother has no say. It is very odd that this nine year old boy seems to be doing this alone without anyone intimately related to him looking out for his interest. He is a minor. I wonder if this man has just been appointed as his GAL. Hasn't his name just surfaced?

I believe many of us have known his name for quite some time. That's another thing I don't understand. How can they post the name and "mug shot" of the 11-year-old in PA and not this boy? Do laws pertaining to minors accused of crimes such as these differ from state to state?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I believe many of us have known his name for quite some time. That's another thing I don't understand. How can they post the name and "mug shot" of the 11-year-old in PA and not this boy? Do laws pertaining to minors accused of crimes such as these differ from state to state?

I believe that is because the boy in PA is being tried as an adult not a juvenile.

I do remember seeing mug shots and names of other youthful murder defendants in the past when they were tried as an adult.

imoo

 

[fran]

Well, well, well. Wonder what's going on over in St. Johns, Az?

First I heard the DPS worker who interiewed this child was reprimanded. Not SURE if it's true but I would IMAGINE it is.

Guess they weren't too happy they leaked the '1000 Spanking Story' to the press. It doesn't matter that the PD got a SW based on that erroneous information and used it as their basis for tacking 'premeditated' to this child's charges. It's proven by documents filed this alleged list does NOT in fact exist in the evidence files. Of course the press has managed to keep the '1000 Spanking' myth alive and those unfortunate enough to BELIEVE this misinformation have continued to use this RUMOR as part of (NON) evidence pointing towards this little boy's guilt.


Now here, you can only read the short sentence or headline because you need to subscribe, http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.asp?brd=2264

You'll note that the "St. Johns' police chief resigns

Can't say as I'm really surprised. After all, I did see in a recent news article where his name was included in the list of applicants applying for a position in another city. I highly doubt that Mr. Melnick will be given the sweet deal he was given at his last place of employment. His last job, he 'agreed to resign' his position overseeing a police department based on 'differences.' Course from them he got a $90K severance package. I'm sure he won't get anything near that amount from this PD. After all, this is in the same jurisdiction that whined about a doctor for this child charging $150 an hour when they only wanted to pay $100 an hour.

Gosh! One must wonder if the two crack detectives that illicited the alleged confession from this poor hapless boy still have their jobs? I know his last employer was still fighting law suits left behind by Melnick for reprimanding his underlings for disagreeing with him. They were even settling out of court. Those officers or former officers must have had a pretty good case of malfeasance by the Chief to have the jurisdictions come to them to settle 'silently' out of court!:waitasec:

Wonder IF the Chief blamed the two detectives for the s*rew up on the alleged confession? or ...............nah! he wouldn't take the blame although he WAS the ONE who leaked it to the press to show the world how incompetent his police force was. :bang:

Now you only have to wonder, who's going to get blamed for accepting a plea deal BEFORE a competency hearing?:woohoo:

Soooo much bumbling and with everyone running for cover!..............:crazy:

Maybe if the town of St. Johns is REALLLLLYYYYY lucky, they'll get a Chief of Police who will actually have his officers conduct a REAL, LIVE, investigation of this murder. They may even surprise themselves and solve it.:behindbar

Just a thought,
fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well, well, well. Wonder what's going on over in St. Johns, Az?

First I heard the DPS worker who interiewed this child was reprimanded. Not SURE if it's true but I would IMAGINE it is.

Guess they weren't too happy they leaked the '1000 Spanking Story' to the press. It doesn't matter that the PD got a SW based on that erroneous information and used it as their basis for tacking 'premeditated' to this child's charges. It's proven by documents filed this alleged list does NOT in fact exist in the evidence files. Of course the press has managed to keep the '1000 Spanking' myth alive and those unfortunate enough to BELIEVE this misinformation have continued to use this RUMOR as part of (NON) evidence pointing towards this little boy's guilt.


Now here, you can only read the short sentence or headline because you need to subscribe, http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.asp?brd=2264

You'll note that the "St. Johns' police chief resigns

Can't say as I'm really surprised. After all, I did see in a recent news article where his name was included in the list of applicants applying for a position in another city. I highly doubt that Mr. Melnick will be given the sweet deal he was given at his last place of employment. His last job, he 'agreed to resign' his position overseeing a police department based on 'differences.' Course from them he got a $90K severance package. I'm sure he won't get anything near that amount from this PD. After all, this is in the same jurisdiction that whined about a doctor for this child charging $150 an hour when they only wanted to pay $100 an hour.

Gosh! One must wonder if the two crack detectives that illicited the alleged confession from this poor hapless boy still have their jobs? I know his last employer was still fighting law suits left behind by Melnick for reprimanding his underlings for disagreeing with him. They were even settling out of court. Those officers or former officers must have had a pretty good case of malfeasance by the Chief to have the jurisdictions come to them to settle 'silently' out of court!:waitasec:

Wonder IF the Chief blamed the two detectives for the s*rew up on the alleged confession? or ...............nah! he wouldn't take the blame although he WAS the ONE who leaked it to the press to show the world how incompetent his police force was. :bang:

Now you only have to wonder, who's going to get blamed for accepting a plea deal BEFORE a competency hearing?:woohoo:

Soooo much bumbling and with everyone running for cover!..............:crazy:

Maybe if the town of St. Johns is REALLLLLYYYYY lucky, they'll get a Chief of Police who will actually have his officers conduct a REAL, LIVE, investigation of this murder. They may even surprise themselves and solve it.:behindbar

Just a thought,
fran

I don't need to wonder anything, as far as I am concerned this case was solved, the guilty party plead guilty.

That "poor hapless boy" IMO is a double murderer.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Hmmm.... Chief Roy Melnick resigns after only being on this job for 10 months. Have to question why. He had issues in MA and I wonder if he brought them with him to AZ.

FWIW, there was a plea deal. Does not make the child guilty.

imho

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hmmm.... Chief Roy Melnick resigns after only being on this job for 10 months. Have to question why. He had issues in MA and I wonder if he brought them with him to AZ.

FWIW, there was a plea deal. Does not make the child guilty.

imho

Well he certainly isn't innocent...he said so himself.

 

[Fairy1]

Well he certainly isn't innocent...he said so himself.

He said a lot of things. Doesn't make them true, does it?

 

[Salem]

Based on your experience, do you feel it was odd that his GAL was not present at his plea hearing and appeared to have learned of the plea deal after the fact? I'm NO expert, but is that the way it's supposed to go?

I am also a CASA and yes, I think it was very odd! A CASA, at least in my county, is considered the eyes and ears of the Judge. We have authority through the Court (Judge) to review school records, medical records, probation records, etc. My thought is that the GAL did not agree with the plea deal and took the easy way out. Not very brave of him. I understand this was a very difficult case and that determining what was best for the boy had to be looked at from many angles. Trial or no trial? Guilt or no guilt? Home with mom or detention?

However, the GAL should have been with the child in that court room and should have spoken up for what he thought was best for the child.

Salem

 

[Fairy1]

I am also a CASA and yes, I think it was very odd! A CASA, at least in my county, is considered the eyes and ears of the Judge. We have authority through the Court (Judge) to review school records, medical records, probation records, etc. My thought is that the GAL did not agree with the plea deal and took the easy way out. Not very brave of him. I understand this was a very difficult case and that determining what was best for the boy had to be looked at from many angles. Trial or no trial? Guilt or no guilt? Home with mom or detention?

However, the GAL should have been with the child in that court room and should have spoken up for what he thought was best for the child.

Salem

Thank you, Salem. It sounded to me as if the GAL did not know about the plea deal in advance. I may have mis-read that, but that's my recollection. His mother was not in favor of it and neither would his legal guardian have been - had he known about it. It strikes me as very odd. I'm not sure why they would appoint a GAL if they weren't going to involve him in ALL of the proceedings. What exactly is the point of that? Unless they had some reason to fast-track the whole thing. IDK.

I understand this was a complicated case due to the age of the boy. Still, some of what occurred just doesn't sit right with me. I'm having a hard time believing any of them had the best interests of the boy in mind.

 

[southcitymom]

GAL, guardian ad litem, and CASA, court appointed special advocate, are the same service. I am a CASA/GAL, and I am not a lawyer.

A CASA/GAL is assigned to a case and are documented by the court to access records, attend meetings and court dates, and most importantly meet with the child and all the people that interplay with that child to determine what is best for them.

Considering this child's situation, the fact his GAL is a lawyer is very advantageous. This case is much more complicated than a your typical CPS case. In my county, all CPS cases are given a CASA volunteer. I remember little Shasta Groene's CASA was an attorney, and I thought, considering all the legal issues she and her family had to encounter, that was a very wise choice. Same with this boy.

Are you in GA, Openmind? I thought only attys could be GAL's in our state, but perhaps different counties have different rules regarding that.

 

[Openmind]

Are you in GA, Openmind? I thought only attys could be GAL's in our state, but perhaps different counties have different rules regarding that.

I am a GAL and so it Salem. I don't know if Salem is an attorney, but I am not and none of the volunteers I know are either.

 

[Fairy1]

I am a GAL and so it Salem. I don't know if Salem is an attorney, but I am not and none of the volunteers I know are either.

In your state and with a case like this one, would you have been required to be there for the plea hearing?

 

[Trino]

I find it odd that in such a high profile case, the GAL was not in court. WE at Websleuths knew when the boy would be in court, and the media publicized the date the plea deal was to be. Why wouldn't a GAL know this if he/she wanted to be in court?

 

[fran]

I am pleased to see that WS posters who KNOW how this sort of situation SHOULD work, are speaking up and explaining how some of this case has been handled all wrong. I don't have any legal background at all, but my common sense tells me, there's something very wrong in St. Johns with regard to this case.

Just because this child was explained these proceedings three times, does NOT mean he understood what was going on completely. Even experienced posters here don't fully understand everything here. This child is too young to realize that he has signed away his life, his youth, his reputation, everything.

I've been reading whatever I can about this case. From what I can gather, and it's MY OPINION, BOTH sides weren't sure they could win this case. The State knew to follow through to the end could possibly cost a fortune, so the plea deal was struck. The def knew to follow through all of the legal avenues would take TIME and most likely all the years of this boy's childhood.

In order to get the child to 'sign,' they knew to persuade him to sign to killing his dad was completely out of the question. So they put out only ONE count, Tim, and it appeared to work. And yes, people can now call this child a murderer and be,...........legally correct.

From that recent news article I linked a few days ago, the GAL stated that BOTH the (def AND pros) psychologists have come to the conclusion the child is 'incompetent' to stand trial. But, BOTH sides avoided this, skirted around this, by submitting the plea deal BEFORE the 'competency hearing.'

Is this legal? I don't know. I would think that if it places this case in an appealable position, that the judge would NOT accept the plea and insist the competency hearing be heard FIRST. But, then the judge is in the position that he MAY have to let the State remove ONE count and THEN the 'incompetency' would only count for ONE charge and the State could file the second charge in a few years, as an adult. The def doesn't want this hanging over the child and possibly being found guilty and 25 + years.

I STILL contend the pros has brought this mess on the table by a RUSH TO JUDGMENT and TUNNEL VISION. All that and I still contend they have NOT proven this child is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I totally understand many people do NOT come to that same conclusion and I have no problem with that.......

I have never followed a case this closely where I thought the alleged murderer or perp was innocent. This crime and arrest of the alleged perp, has opened my eyes to an entirely different aspect of the legal community. When someone appears to be obviously innocent (imo) but is found guilty, either by trial or plea deal.

This case has made me even more cautious in observing and coming to the conclusion of 'guilty.' One needs to look at BOTH sides and have ANSWERS to anything appearing exculpatory. Like the newest case of the 11 yo. Did he kill his dad's g/f? Frankly, I don't know. All indications are he did,............but then that's all we've been fed by the media, the accusers side. There's questions in the case that need to be answered before I'll believe that child committed that murder just as in this case. I'm not going to take anyone's word for it, or opinion based on opinion.

How many of the prisoners behind bars today in the U.S. are actually innocent but plead guilty because they knew they couldn't prove their innocence and the cards were stacked against them as in, imo, this case? How many?

JMHO
fran

 

[SoobsinMI]

In the paper today was an article concerning a 16 year old (he was 14 years old at the time of the crime) who took a plea for a multiple killing. This child was developmentally disabled and could only read at a third grade level. There is now information that the killings were possibly the work of a hit man who has confessed to seven other murders in the area.

I see compelling correlation between the two cases, if you just look at mental capacity. Along with a false confession, his statement didn't match the facts. This child was urged by his lawyer to accept the plea, so that he wouldn't spend the rest of his life in prison. There was an apparent rush to judgement. Judge for yourself. Again, just because one takes a plea, after weighing the options, doesn't mean one is guilty.

http://freep.com/article/20090228/NEWS05/902280367/Is+teen+taking+the+fall+for+hit+man+s+killing?

 

[Trino]

I am pleased to see that WS posters who KNOW how this sort of situation SHOULD work, are speaking up and explaining how some of this case has been handled all wrong. I don't have any legal background at all, but my common sense tells me, there's something very wrong in St. Johns with regard to this case.

Just because this child was explained these proceedings three times, does NOT mean he understood what was going on completely. Even experienced posters here don't fully understand everything here. This child is too young to realize that he has signed away his life, his youth, his reputation, everything.

I've been reading whatever I can about this case. From what I can gather, and it's MY OPINION, BOTH sides weren't sure they could win this case. The State knew to follow through to the end could possibly cost a fortune, so the plea deal was struck. The def knew to follow through all of the legal avenues would take TIME and most likely all the years of this boy's childhood.

In order to get the child to 'sign,' they knew to persuade him to sign to killing his dad was completely out of the question. So they put out only ONE count, Tim, and it appeared to work. And yes, people can now call this child a murderer and be,...........legally correct.

From that recent news article I linked a few days ago, the GAL stated that BOTH the (def AND pros) psychologists have come to the conclusion the child is 'incompetent' to stand trial. But, BOTH sides avoided this, skirted around this, by submitting the plea deal BEFORE the 'competency hearing.'

Is this legal? I don't know. I would think that if it places this case in an appealable position, that the judge would NOT accept the plea and insist the competency hearing be heard FIRST. But, then the judge is in the position that he MAY have to let the State remove ONE count and THEN the 'incompetency' would only count for ONE charge and the State could file the second charge in a few years, as an adult. The def doesn't want this hanging over the child and possibly being found guilty and 25 + years.

I STILL contend the pros has brought this mess on the table by a RUSH TO JUDGMENT and TUNNEL VISION. All that and I still contend they have NOT proven this child is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I totally understand many people do NOT come to that same conclusion and I have no problem with that.......

I have never followed a case this closely where I thought the alleged murderer or perp was innocent. This crime and arrest of the alleged perp, has opened my eyes to an entirely different aspect of the legal community. When someone appears to be obviously innocent (imo) but is found guilty, either by trial or plea deal.

This case has made me even more cautious in observing and coming to the conclusion of 'guilty.' One needs to look at BOTH sides and have ANSWERS to anything appearing exculpatory. Like the newest case of the 11 yo. Did he kill his dad's g/f? Frankly, I don't know. All indications are he did,............but then that's all we've been fed by the media, the accusers side. There's questions in the case that need to be answered before I'll believe that child committed that murder just as in this case. I'm not going to take anyone's word for it, or opinion based on opinion.

How many of the prisoners behind bars today in the U.S. are actually innocent but plead guilty because they knew they couldn't prove their innocence and the cards were stacked against them as in, imo, this case? How many? JMHOfran

As I've posted before, the public has one 1/4 of the information. The judge, the DA, the PA have the other 3/4. How can we judge with only 1/4 of the info?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

In the paper today was an article concerning a 16 year old (he was 14 years old at the time of the crime) who took a plea for a multiple killing. This child was developmentally disabled and could only read at a third grade level. There is now information that the killings were possibly the work of a hit man who has confessed to seven other murders in the area.

I see compelling correlation between the two cases, if you just look at mental capacity. Along with a false confession, his statement didn't match the facts. This child was urged by his lawyer to accept the plea, so that he wouldn't spend the rest of his life in prison. There was an apparent rush to judgment. Judge for yourself. Again, just because one takes a plea, after weighing the options, doesn't mean one is guilty.

http://freep.com/article/20090228/NEWS05/902280367/Is+teen+taking+the+fall+for+hit+man+s+killing?

I have never read that this boy in this case was/is developmentally disabled. In fact, the way I have seen his lawyer talk about him, even thinking he could get him a scholarship to a private school, it strikes me he is above average intelligence and certainly not mentally challenged.

I just don't see any correlations to that case and this one. JMO though.

 

[fran]

As I've posted before, the public has one 1/4 of the information. The judge, the DA, the PA have the other 3/4. How can we judge with only 1/4 of the info?

Thank you Trino!

You are exactly CORRECT!

How can WE judge this child guilty with only 1/4 of the evidence?

IMO, we cannot. We can say he's convicted of the crime, but we cannot say 100% SURE or ACCURATELY, that he is guilty. Only that he's convicted because of the plea deal.

I do NOT know one way or the other if this child committed this crime. I do tend to think he did NOT, but I'm positive I couldn't convict him on what we, the general public have been fed about this case. Frankly, I have more questions than answers on this case. I see too many other probabilities that MUST be cleared, in my mind, before I could make an intelligent decision with regard to his guilt or innocence.

That's all I've been saying all along. I need answers to the 75% of the evidence that we don't know about and answers to questions raised by what has come forth.

But alas, we may never know because a deal has been struck. But,.........was the child competent to make the plea?

I guess that's the next legal question that should be answered before we can move any further forward,.............or we may see this case pop back up IF and when an 'appeal' is filed.

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

I have never read that this boy in this case was/is developmentally disabled. In fact, the way I have seen his lawyer talk about him, even thinking he could get him a scholarship to a private school, it strikes me he is above average intelligence and certainly not mentally challenged.

I just don't see any correlations to that case and this one. JMO though.

Sure there's a correlation between these two cases. The case SoobsinMI referenced was an older person with the 'mental capacity' of a third grader. This child IS a third grader. Same, apples and apples, mental capacity.
The scholarship has to do with 'school work' only. It has NOTHING to do with mental maturity.

I had a daughter who, when in first grade could read like an 8th grader and could put a fifth grade student to shame scholastically. Maturity-wise, she was one of the youngest in her class and thought she was too young to be in school all day. She knew a lot about a lot, but emotionally, she was only 5.


JMHO
fran