AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[Trino]

It's a FACT that St Johns PD discontinued investigating this case the MINUTE they coerced this child into a confession. It's in the COURT filed documents. They didn't begin to investigate again until AFTER the judge told them to. They lost valuable time and possible evidence by their delay. You can see it in the witness interviews from the first day of questioning of witnesses that worked with the two victims and the second set of statements taken more than 10 days later. The second group of statements are more rehearsed.

I'm not going to 'pretend' that I know what is in the pages of documents not put into evidence. I believe for anyone to ASSUME they know what they contain is just writing fiction.

I stand by my statement that they are conspiring against this child. They want this case to disappear because of their complete and utterly mishandling from the day they arrived on the scene up until the last court hearing. From the outside looking in, NO ONE is truly working for what is the best interest of this child. NO ONE, except his mom Eryn. They wouldn't even listen to her, though.

To coerce this child to sign that plea agreement prior to his competency hearing is just as WRONG as it was for those two detectives to corner that child in that room and lead him along until he told them a story they wanted to hear.

The detectives lied that they wouldn't lie and this case has been nothing but mishandled since. All the towns people have to say is they're glad it's over. How sad is that? For these two families and for this child, it's just begun.JMHOfran

I don't believe you can stereotype all individuals and state they would conspire against a 9 yr old boy? Even the DA? IMO it's not fair to label this people conspirators. They, too, have children. How can everyone involved in the plea deal be lumped together as hard-harded individuals who don't care about children?

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Suppressing one fourth of the evidence in any case is major, and, undoubtedly, the most pertinent evidence that proves guilt, innocence, or motive is now sealed by this plea. What this allows is unsavory speculation and nasty rumors to forever haunt this case and all parties involved. People will trot out their opinions like they are gospel because so many facts are sealed. They can spin the evidence they have to support their side of the issue when what they know may not be a full picture of the events. People can fill in the gaps with gossip from a friend of a friend of a relative three times removed. Even so, IMHO, this is not a conspiracy against the child, but damage control for all the missteps the officials have taken. They messed up from the get-go and didn't improve.

Excellent post, OpenMind. I couldn't agree more. Perfectly stated.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I don't believe you can stereotype all individuals and state they would conspire against a 9 yr old boy? Even the DA? IMO it's not fair to label this people conspirators. They, too, have children. How can everyone involved in the plea deal be lumped together as hard-harded individuals who don't care about children?

It does nor matter, nor should it, whether any of the professionals have children or not. It was/is about a case. It was not followed through the proper "channels" as it should have been. The only persons that messed up this case are the ones that investigated it. Yes, we can be emotional about it, but "business is business". This was a "job" that was handled poorly. From the get go. There are no winners here. This was a case that many wanted to go away. At the cost of the victims as well as the child. Sad state of affairs in St. John's. Very sad indeed.


imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't believe you can stereotype all individuals and state they would conspire against a 9 yr old boy? Even the DA? IMO it's not fair to label this people conspirators. They, too, have children. How can everyone involved in the plea deal be lumped together as hard-harded individuals who don't care about children?

ITA!

And the plea deal they offered him shows how much they all did care.

Each one of them knew the most important thing is to see that this boy is given extensive mental treatment over the next few years.

imo

 

[fran]

I don't believe you can stereotype all individuals and state they would conspire against a 9 yr old boy? Even the DA? IMO it's not fair to label this people conspirators. They, too, have children. How can everyone involved in the plea deal be lumped together as hard-harded individuals who don't care about children?

Oh, you may be right Trino. It probably isn't a conspiracy. I guess it's just plain old incompetence.

Labeling these people conspirators or incompetent is nothing compared to what they've done to this child, WITHOUT one shred of evidence! IMHO

JMHO
fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

Oh, you may be right Trino. It probably isn't a conspiracy. I guess it's just plain old incompetence.

Labeling these people conspirators or incompetent is nothing compared to what they've done to this child, WITHOUT one shred of evidence! IMHO

JMHO
fran

I think they had a mountain of evidence and every bit of it pointed right at the boy.

 

[Openmind]

If we knew all the evidence, we could make a better judgment if this is a kindness or an attempt to bury their mess-ups. They may have had enough evidence to convict him, and they might not. They may not have had enough factual evidence or there are mitigating factors that would have won the boy a not guilty verdict. One thing for sure -- with this plea, the child, at nine, is a confessed felon and has lost some of his privileges as a citizen for the remainder of his life. And, yes, I know the victims have lost all that and much more, but we do not know all the details of this crime and now never will. No one but the judge and attorneys feels this plea has served justice -- so go figure. The child is too young to understand how this plea will affect his life for the rest of his life. Yeah, I can see his lawyer telling him, three times, if you sign this you can go home and all you have to do it talk with a doctor every so often to make sure you are doing OK. Of course, the child is going to sign.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think they had a mountain of evidence and every bit of it pointed right at the boy.

I agree and why would they try to bury anything? The confession and its circumstances were already well known for almost 4 months before this plea even went down. The only thing questionable was always the confession anyway imo and the DPS did a vast investigation concerning this case turning over 795 pages of documents, themselves.

I think that was a part of the wranglings going on behind the scenes between the DA and the defense and they both decided that in the best interest of the boy that all the other evidence be sealed.

IMO, if this boy had a justifiable excuse for doing this then his own lawyer would have dropped a hint as to what it could have been but his lips are sealed as tight as the rest of the evidence is and he seemed very relieved that it is never going to come to light, IMO.

imoo

 

[fran]

As I like to deal with fact and not fiction and wild speculation that can't be proven, does anyone have a link, that the St Johns PD followed up on the former/fellow employee of the two victims that several of the witness statements told LE to talk to? Other than interviewing him, that is.

This particular person in question had the motive, means, and opportunity.

I hate loose ends.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The very first thing my own dad taught me BEFORE ever handing me a gun, was gun safety. Rule #1 Never point it at anyone.

I would bet my last dollar Vincent did the same.

I am sure he did too. Vincent didn't even want him to even have the BB gun out unless he was there with him, according to the boy.

You betcha he knew the rules he just didn't want to adhere to them.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hey, OL. Perhaps I am not following this particular line of debate closely enough, but I think it is common knowledge in this case that this boy knew a lot about shooting and had been doing it since he was 5. He had shot and killed prairie dogs, went shooting regularly with his father, had his own gun. So guns were a part of his life and he knew how to handle them.

I certainly can't speak for "most" 3rd graders, but I believe that many children who grow up in more rural communities are pretty savvy about guns by grade 3.

I totally agree.

He had experience and he used the weapon that he was the most familiar with. Even he said the gun is easy to shoot and on that one part, he told the truth, it is.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

As I like to deal with fact and not fiction and wild speculation that can't be proven, does anyone have a link, that the St Johns PD followed up on the former/fellow employee of the two victims that several of the witness statements told LE to talk to? Other than interviewing him, that is.

This particular person in question had the motive, means, and opportunity.

I hate loose ends.

JMHO
fran

Well in this case no one has all the facts. If the rest of the evidence and investigation is never unsealed then none of us will know many of the things we would like to know.

I sure have quite a lot of questions myself on certain forensic results that were never revealed but I highly doubt those records or any other records in this case will be brought to light.

Mums the word, it seems.

imoo

 

[Openmind]

I think they had a mountain of evidence and every bit of it pointed right at the boy.

So, they have ample evidence this child with malicious intent murdered two men, and they let him plead out. Sounds negligent or incompetent to me.

I am sure he did too. Vincent didn't even want him to even have the BB gun out unless he was there with him, according to the boy.

You betcha he knew the rules he just didn't want to adhere to them.

As you said, that is just your opinion. There is no proof one way or the other. We have no idea what standards Vincent required of this boy or if he respected them or ignored them.

 

[fran]

I am sure he did too. Vincent didn't even want him to even have the BB gun out unless he was there with him, according to the boy.

You betcha he knew the rules he just didn't want to adhere to them.

imoo

To be quite honest, IMO, Vincent wasn't necessarily all that picky with his weapons. I mean he did leave them laying around downstairs and his stepmom would make the child take them upstairs.

I also understand that there were live shells laying around the master bedroom floor when the St. John's PD did their investigation. The wife said Vince was always dropping them everywhere.

Pretty sloppy with his weapons and amunition, that can kill.

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

Well in this case no one has all the facts. If the rest of the evidence and investigation is never unsealed then none of us will know many of the things we would like to know.

I sure have quite a lot of questions myself on certain forensic results that were never revealed but I highly doubt those records or any other records in this case will be brought to light.

Mums the word, it seems.

imoo

EXACTLY, we'll never know if they checked out the person many people pointed the finger at as having a grudge with both victims and a vehicle matching the get-a-way car, a gun the same as what is THOUGHT to be the murder weapon, and he placed himself close to the scene at the time of the murders...........

There's still a missing 22 automatic from the crime scene. It was Grandpa's and shot the same shells as the Chipmunk.
Tim had a 22 also, per his statement to the Reservation police. Where is it?
Oh, yeah, there's mention of Vince having a 22 also. Wonder if that's the missing 22 automatic or another 22?
Someone also mentioned the step-mom had a 22. Was there another 22 missing or were they talking about the boy's 22?

Oh, yeah, and the person that many people told LE to talk to, he admitted he had a 22 single bolt action rifle. LOL, he also said he'd bought it in 2000 and had never shot it. Right!

Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions alright.

JMHO
fran

PS....wonder if they ever questioned Misty's psycho b/f? You know, Misty the one of at least THREE females we now know Tim was involved with.

PPS.....wonder if they ever questioned the girl who claimed Tim sexually assaulted her?

PPPS......wonder if they ever found out who wanted to kill Tim?.....looks like they found him.....

PPPPS....Wonder if they ever found out why Tim was so upset at work the day before he died?

PPPPPS......How come Vince's wife asked Nicole to wait for the child to come home from school that day? The first time she'd ever done that? Course, then she SAID she had to leave and the child wasn't home.......Why did LE ask many of the neighbors about Nicole??????????????????????? Wonder if it had anything to do with her attempted suicide?????????????? Maybe she used..........drugs.....................???????????????????????....interesting thought, maybe she got her drugs from .......?????the closest drug dealer.......

Wonder if it's true that Nicole is living in the murder home with Vince's wife?? Is that just a local rumor or fact?????

 

[oceanblueeyes]

So, they have ample evidence this child with malicious intent murdered two men, and they let him plead out. Sounds negligent or incompetent to me.



As you said, that is just your opinion. There is no proof one way or the other. We have no idea what standards Vincent required of this boy or if he respected them or ignored them.

IMO, they let him plead out because they didn't know what to do with an 9 year old kid. He was too young for juvie and not old enough for adult prison.


Well that is what the boy said in his interview. He even said he felt bad about going behind his dad's back but if you wish not to believe him, I can understand why.

imoo

 

[fran]

I totally agree.

He had experience and he used the weapon that he was the most familiar with. Even he said the gun is easy to shoot and on that one part, he told the truth, it is.

imo

Why weren't the child's finger prints on the gun?
Who did the UNIDENTIFIED prints belong to?

How could they charge the child with murder, claim his Chipmunk gun is the murder weapon, yet they CANNOT place the gun in the child's hand???????

Looks to me like they have a HUGE problem. Course, this is the least of them, regarding this case.

The first problem................LACK of Competency Hearing.

Problem, problem, problem.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

EXACTLY, we'll never know if they checked out the person many people pointed the finger at as having a grudge with both victims and a vehicle matching the get-a-way car, a gun the same as what is THOUGHT to be the murder weapon, and he placed himself close to the scene at the time of the murders...........

There's still a missing 22 automatic from the crime scene. It was Grandpa's and shot the same shells as the Chipmunk.
Tim had a 22 also, per his statement to the Reservation police. Where is it?
Oh, yeah, there's mention of Vince having a 22 also. Wonder if that's the missing 22 automatic or another 22?
Someone also mentioned the step-mom had a 22. Was there another 22 missing or were they talking about the boy's 22?

Oh, yeah, and the person that many people told LE to talk to, he admitted he had a 22 single bolt action rifle. LOL, he also said he'd bought it in 2000 and had never shot it. Right!

Yeah, there's a lot of unanswered questions alright.

JMHO
fran

PS....wonder if they ever questioned Misty's psycho b/f? You know, Misty the one of at least THREE females we now know Tim was involved with.

PPS.....wonder if they ever questioned the girl who claimed Tim sexually assaulted her?

PPPS......wonder if they ever found out who wanted to kill Tim?.....looks like they found him.....

PPPPS....Wonder if they ever found out why Tim was so upset at work the day before he died?

PPPPPS......How come Vince's wife asked Nicole to wait for the child to come home from school that day? The first time she'd ever done that? Course, then she SAID she had to leave and the child wasn't home.......Why did LE ask many of the neighbors about Nicole??????????????????????? Wonder if it had anything to do with her attempted suicide?????????????? Maybe she used..........drugs.....................???????????????????????....interesting thought, maybe she got her drugs from .......?????the closest drug dealer.......

Wonder if it's true that Nicole is living in the murder home with Vince's wife?? Is that just a local rumor or fact?????

I know what you mean. I have lots of questions I would like answered.

1. Was it blood transfer or blood spatter found on his jeans?
2. Was the .22 rifle really missing or was it already back with its original owner?
3. What was the forensic results on the boy's clothing found in the trash can that was said to have blood on them?
4. Did the underwear and socks have blood on them?
5. If so, was it from one of the victims and which one?
6. Would love to know what the forensic firearm expert deduces with the GSR only being found on the front part of the defendant's clothing instead of in general all over areas, since he said he walked into the white smoke?
7. Did the defense attorney ever establish the boy's alibi that he walked around the block 10 times?
8. Was Cage even outside after school and if so, did he see the boy going around and around the block?
9. Did anyone else see him in the entire neighborhood during this time frame?
10. Did they find any brain matter on his clothing when they tested them for blood?
11. What was the forensic results on the firearm when DPS recommended it needed to be sent out for further testing?
12. Did DPS ever get good fingerprints of the boy's right middle and ring finger? If so, what was the results?
13. What time did the boy arrive at the neighborhood boy's home?
14. Why did the DA ask for his footprints?
15. Was there bloody footprints in areas he said he did not go?
16. Did they do a reenactment to see if it matched his time line of events?
17. Did they reconstruct the time line using the cell phone records along with ear witnesses' accounts of certain events and compare it to what he told them happened and when?

I could go on and on.........I have so many questions but I must face the fact that this case has been sealed and it is highly unlikely I will ever know the answers to these questions.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Why weren't the child's finger prints on the gun?
Who did the UNIDENTIFIED prints belong to?

How could they charge the child with murder, claim his Chipmunk gun is the murder weapon, yet they CANNOT place the gun in the child's hand???????

Looks to me like they have a HUGE problem. Course, this is the least of them, regarding this case.

The first problem................LACK of Competency Hearing.

Problem, problem, problem.

JMHO
fran

I doubt that the lack of competency hearing is going to be an issue.

Since it is the law in Az that a child of 8 can be charged with a crime then I find it highly unlikely that he is the only young juvenile that has plead guilty.

I think Judge Roca knows the laws of his own state and most likely even consulted with scholars who excel in the laws of Az. or perhaps other Judges in the state.

imoo

 

[Openmind]

IMO, they let him plead out because they didn't know what to do with an 9 year old kid. He was too young for juvie and not old enough for adult prison.

If they had evidence he committed the crime in the fashion implied, and they let him plead out, they took the coward's way out. Not knowing what to do does not mean circumventing the demands for justice.

Well that is what the boy said in his interview. He even said he felt bad about going behind his dad's back but if you wish not to believe him, I can understand why.

imoo

Truthfully, I try real hard not to form opinions based on such narrow information. One comment does not a continued behavior make.