AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[Linda7NJ]

tell rocha about it hes the one that made crs schedule. hes the one that told them to bring him in at 1 or 130pm so take you complaint to the man that made the rule !!!!!!!!!!! keep up the good work fran,dgfred

WHAT???? Why should I tell the judge anything? He KNOWS the schedule, as does the prosecutor.

My complaint.....apparently the boy wasn't in his regularly scheduled school...because of his mother's failure to get him there.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I do not understand how this mother has been turned into something akin to Satan's Spawn here. Fer gawds sakes, if there was absolutely anything remotely true regarding her status/responsibilities as a parent, there is no way she would have custody of her son. There is nothing out there save for viscious fodder about her. I must ask, why??? And, where it is nothing, but fodder, why is be spoken as if it was fact???

The one thing I *very* much admire/love about WS's is that we are not a site that is about nasty and unfounded gossip. WS's is a site that discusses facts, possibilities, and has respect for such. I am here as a member because witch hunting is not done. Thank goodness!!! Any person enjoys such a "sport" steals away the integrity of themselves as well as WS's and fellow members.

imvho

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do not understand how this mother has been turned into something akin to Satan's Spawn here. Fer gawds sakes, if there was absolutely anything remotely true regarding her status/responsibilities as a parent, there is no way she would have custody of her son. There is nothing out there save for viscious fodder about her. I must ask, why??? And, where it is nothing, but fodder, why is be spoken as if it was fact???

The one thing I *very* much admire/love about WS's is that we are not a site that is about nasty and unfounded gossip. WS's is a site that discusses facts, possibilities, and has respect for such. I am here as a member because witch hunting is not done. Thank goodness!!! Any person enjoys such a "sport" steals away the integrity of themselves as well as WS's and fellow members.

imvho

Sadly, she did basically abandon the boy after he went to live with Vincent. She never paid a dime of support for her son either. She only very recently, prior to the murders, began communicating & visiting with the boy.

All of this information is available, I've read the documents. My comments are not based on fodder or gossip. I have formed my own opinions based on the information I've read in court documents.

Honestly, I have no idea why they gave this mother custody of this boy. I always thought it was HUGE mistake, given her track record.

 

[mostlylurking]

The little girl is living with her dad....in another state. How often do you think the mother is going to be visiting her? She can't even take care & support herself. She can't afford transportation costs to Phx for the boy's evualtions. She can't provide basic dental care for her son....How often do you think she'll be visiting her daughter?

IMO It isn't going to happen. History is repeating itself.

Linda, I don't want an argument with you.
You are wrong on the point of where the daughter is now. This has changed in the last several weeks. I can not provide a link, but I know it to be true. She splits her time between her parents now.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Well, the video tape 'interrogation' was first, then releasing evidence information that only showed the boy COULD have done it... not any that would question his part or show the possiblity that something was wrong in the rush to judgement was next. Now stating and filing in court that the mom is neglecting her duties and breaking the plea agreement, the boy is breaking the plea, the grandma wants a gun (afraid of the boy?) and each accusation probably has a simple explanation or is a rumor... thus poison of public opinion.
Now everyone has to wait until Tuesday for everything to be smoothed out, in the meantime- What does the public think? I can see from the reaction on boards that they are being thrown to the wolves, and not protected as it should be.

Why did it take so long for the courts to decide what to do with this boy? Because they didn't know what to do with him at his young age. They didn't want to keep him in detention with the older kids but there wasn't anywhere to place young boys. So they make the decision to let him go live with his mother even while waiting for the eval to be completed. They laid down some rules for the sake of the boy and the community.

Now if the court and Pros didn't care about what is happening to this kid why not just turn their heads and pretend that they don't have a clue that mom isn't following the rules, etc. Wouldn't that be the easier thing to do? Out of sight out of mind. Let mom deal with him and don't worry about what happens to him or anyone in the community. Why invite the same problem that they faced before? If the Pros gets the the boy back into custody they are right back at base one...trying to figure out what to do with him. I doubt that anyone wants that headache to come back yet the Pros is playing by the rules. To me it says a lot for him.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Other than days when the classes at detention were not in session, he has been going. It was only a few weeks ago that that became required.

You are right. It's social security, not SSI.
He plead guilty to negligent homicide of someone else, not his father.
Your perception of what he did or is guilty of is not relevant to his
eligibility to receive it.

Did I say that my perception of what he did or didn't do is relevant to his eligibility to receive SS? BUT...if I did have a voice in the decision...NO... he wouldn't get it. Like it or not he murdered his father...why should the funds come from his father's earnings to raise this boy until he is 18 yrs old when there is another child that belongs to the father! Just because he wasn't charged with the murder of his father doesn't mean it didn't happen. In my opinion that was a mistake. If he was only going to be charged with one of the murders it should have been his DAD.

 

[Fairy1]

Sadly, she did basically abandon the boy after he went to live with Vincent. She never paid a dime of support for her son either. She only very recently, prior to the murders, began communicating & visiting with the boy.

All of this information is available, I've read the documents. My comments are not based on fodder or gossip. I have formed my own opinions based on the information I've read in court documents.

Honestly, I have no idea why they gave this mother custody of this boy. I always thought it was HUGE mistake, given her track record.

None of us have ANY knowledge as to why VR had custody of CR. None of the "court documents" will reveal the details of what truly occurred there. So yes, you are forming your opinions largely on gossip. If Eryn was such a pathetic loser of a mother, WHY would the court have put CR in her care? Have you ever thought about that? I'm going to say - NO!

 

[Fairy1]

If this child was so different and so evil, how did everyone miss it? That has been my bone of contention from the start. That this evil child was so mentally unhealthy that out of the blue he picked up a gun and murdered two people and everyone seemed shocked by the crime. If he was that deranged, why wasn't he getting help for his issues.

This is my contention also, Openmind. If CR was so emotionally "detached" and truly evil, those nearest to him really dropped the ball in getting him the help he needed. VR SHOULD have known his own child was suffering the effects of being "abandoned" by his mother. Clearly, that never occurred to him, which leads me to believe it was NOT the case.

I know many young children AND adults who would be considered "manipulative." None of them are murderers - they have simply learned how to work the "system." That's not a felony.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Did I say that my perception of what he did or didn't do is relevant to his eligibility to receive SS? BUT...if I did have a voice in the decision...NO... he wouldn't get it. Like it or not he murdered his father...why should the funds come from his father's earnings to raise this boy until he is 18 yrs old when there is another child that belongs to the father! Just because he wasn't charged with the murder of his father doesn't mean it didn't happen. In my opinion that was a mistake. If he was only going to be charged with one of the murders it should have been his DAD.

I think it is appalling. The government shouldn't pay the defendants for the crimes they have committed. This is blood money for sure, imo.

I agree Bobbi but I do understand why the CA chose Tim Romans. Tim was not family and died because he happened to be there and came to the boy's wolf cry of needing help.

This was a very risky case for both sides and that is why it was plead down to a pitiful amount of justice. Neither side knew how Roca was going to rule on the motion to dismiss count one. Whiting knew that if he ruled against him on that and then found him age incompetent to stand trial, both charges would go down the drain. Now Wood also worried how the Judge would rule. IMO, Wood knows there is real evidence there where he would be tried later for murdering his father if Roca separated the cases. Both sides would have been taking a very high risk to gamble with what Roca was going to decide.

So what they both settled for was a known outcome for both of them. The boy would be closely monitored for the next 9 years and get mental therapy and the state got an admission of guilt, that he did indeed kill Tim Romans. He put him at the scene when death was occurring (not after) and to this day no other suspect has ever been placed there nor are police looking for any suspect in the murder of Vinnie Romero. LE and the CA knows all too well who murdered Vinnie.

O/T I was reading the latest update on the woman who carried her dead child's body in the trunk of her car for months. She too plead her case down to Negligent Homicide BUT her sentencing has not happened yet and she is facing up to 100 years in prison! Wow. The age of the defendent was always the reason this case went south with little to no justice served,imo.

imo

 

[Openmind]

Reactive Attachment Disorder. The symptoms and the causes.

http://www.attachment.org/pages_what_is_rad.php

Looking over both lists, I could see a case for this condition, but I sure can't see a child being able to hide this condition from attentive and involved adults. Nothing in this child's background would indicate anyone was concerned about any of these issues. I wonder how many of this child's fellow classmates in kindergarten were also checked as manipulative. It is not an unusual trait in children this young and especially in only children. If he does have this disorder, and it was ignored by his family, friends, and the school, it does not make them bad people, but it does indicate they were poorly informed or neglectful. Perhaps they were hoping it was a "stage" he would outgrow. If he had RAD, I would think spanking and slapping him would make his condition and lack of trust even worse. If he is suffering from RAD, he did not cause himself to have this condition, and if it went unchecked, that was not his fault either. Do people really think this child should, at eight, be responsible for somehow discerning for himself that he had serious problems with bonding, was angry and reactive, and he should have been dealing with these problems on his own.

I am working with a child with this disorder, and it was not hard to detect after I got to know the child. Sadly, children in foster care suffer from this, but it is treatable. With patience and hard work, children can be helped. You can't just hope they will somehow heal themselves.

His age was always a factor and always will. He is nine. He was eight when he committed the crime. In six month, he will be ten. One of the first questions asked about a child for any educational/emotional/social evaluation is their age because every month and every year makes a huge difference in their development. HUGE difference. And he sure isn't an adult.


I sure don't object to this child getting his father's benefits. It is blood money if he killed his father to get the benefits. I seriously doubt he had any idea what was going to happen when committed these acts. I would like to think there is some way to help this child to recover and have some sort of normal life. Hasn't there been enough pain and heartbreak from all this?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think anyone who illegally kills another person deserves to be monetarily rewarded for it. IMO, that is vile and disgusting. That is like promoting the message that crime........pays.

imo

 

[Openmind]

I don't think anyone who illegally kills another person deserves to be monetarily rewarded for it. IMO, that is vile and disgusting. That is like promoting the message that crime........pays.

imo

If this was my child and I was the vicitm, I would want him to get my benefits to help him recover and have a normal life. I sure wouldn't want him to be punished for what he didn't know how to prevent. RAD is a mental disorder.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If this was my child and I was the victim, I would want him to get my benefits to help him recover and have a normal life. I sure wouldn't want him to be punished for what he didn't know how to prevent. RAD is a mental disorder.

Vinnie's brain has long been inactive. We have no idea what Vinnie would want. No one can ask him. I highly doubt he would want his son to go unpunished especially if he had known the horrific results and circumstances of Tim Roman's demise. But he was dead before Tim so he is voiceless as all deceased victims are. Vinnie was a faithful church goer and I do believe he thought the ten commandments applies to all, not just some.

We have 5 children, now grown, but all through their lives we taught them to be accountable and take full responsibility for their own actions even their wrongdoings. We would never renege on our values or teachings that we patiently instilled in them. For in the end if we suddenly think that "our" children are to be treated differently and "our" children shouldn't have accountability then all of our teachings throughout their lives were just lies. It then becomes "Anyone but my child", imo

I think Vinnie died loving his son and never knew he couldn't trust him. I do believe that Vinnie fully trusted this boy and he betrayed that trust. I think he saw the boy as a typical boy and thought when he may have had disruptive days it was just an age phase he was going through. Vinnie may have been somewhat naive but the profilers for decades have tried to recognize a murderer before they strike but yet even today they only get to analyze them once they become murderers. I don't think they have a neon M on their forehead.

imo

 

[Openmind]

I think Vinnie died loving his son and never knew he couldn't trust him. I do believe that Vinnie fully trusted this boy and he betrayed that trust. I think he saw the boy as a typical boy and thought when he may have had disruptive days it was just an age phase he was going through. Vinnie may have been somewhat naive but the profilers for decades have tried to recognize a murderer before they strike but yet even today they only get to analyze them once they become murderers. I don't think they have a neon M on their forehead.]

It has been concerted that this boy suffers from Reactive Attachment Disorder or detachment issues based on his early separation from his mother. It was stated he was incapable of connecting to people and consequently lacked empathy, trust, and security. His profile matches many of the characteristics listed for RAD. Since this child had no control over those first months of his life or the circumstances of his parents divorce, this condition was not something he created for himself. His parents did not knowingly allow this to happen to him. They obviously did not know the gravity of his condition or the horrific outcome of his problems, but neither did he cause himself to be this way. Unlike an adult, eight year olds cannot be expected to be so reflective they realize they have mental issues, but in a perfect world the adults in their lives would. With therapy and help, this boy can overcome this condition. I can't help but think a parent would want their mentally or physically ill child to be healed and restored? I also raised my children to be accountable for their actions, and they are the adults I hoped they would be, but if my child had been ill, I would not expect him/her to be punished for what they could not control or prevent. Again, RAD is a mental disorder.

Vinnie's brain has long been inactive. We have no idea what Vinnie would want. No one can ask him. I highly doubt he would want his son to go unpunished especially if he had known the horrific results and circumstances of Tim Roman's demise. But he was dead before Tim so he is voiceless as all deceased victims are. Vinnie was a faithful church goer and I do believe he thought the ten commandments applies to all, not just some.

Absolutely true, neither one of us can speak for Vinnie.

The teachings of Christ also speak of compassion and forgiveness. Healing this child, forgiving him for what he could not control at the time of his crime, and then allowing him to live a normal life speaks volumes for God's love and the ability of the human soul to regain its humanity. At his young age, this child, in particular, has a chance to lead a productive life, but if everyone insists he be punished and forever ostracised, we might as well do what so many want which is to lock him in a jail and then go ahead and throw away the key. He will have a lifetime to carry the burden of this crime no matter what society feels must happen.

 

[Bobbisangel]

None of us have ANY knowledge as to why VR had custody of CR. None of the "court documents" will reveal the details of what truly occurred there. So yes, you are forming your opinions largely on gossip. If Eryn was such a pathetic loser of a mother, WHY would the court have put CR in her care? Have you ever thought about that? I'm going to say - NO!

Have you thought that maybe this mother was the only person that wanted to take this boy? She promised all kinds of things like following the court ordered rules and so the court took a chance on letting him go with her. They had no where else to put him. I'm sure that they wanted to believe that given this second chance to raise her son that she would do everything that was required of her to help this boy stay on track. I'm sure it hasn't been easy monitoring his every move but that is what was agreed on in court.
The responsibility of raising this boy is huge but again...mom agreed to do it.
It will be a shame if this boy has to be locked up until he is a certain age when it could have been so different if only the mother had put his needs before hers.

This felon boyfriend....someone said that the mother didn't find out he was a felon until after she had taken the boy and went to visit him. But...isn't it true that the mother had already been warned to stay away from this felon BEFORE they made the trip? If that is true then she already knew he was a felon. She purposely broke the rules and went to visit him anyway. The boy had no say in going or staying with his gramma. Mom was making the decisions that will affect his life.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It has been concerted that this boy suffers from Reactive Attachment Disorder or detachment issues based on his early separation from his mother. It was stated he was incapable of connecting to people and consequently lacked empathy, trust, and security. His profile matches many of the characteristics listed for RAD. Since this child had no control over those first months of his life or the circumstances of his parents divorce, this condition was not something he created for himself. His parents did not knowingly allow this to happen to him. They obviously did not know the gravity of his condition or the horrific outcome of his problems, but neither did he cause himself to be this way. Unlike an adult, eight year olds cannot be expected to be so reflective they realize they have mental issues, but in a perfect world the adults in their lives would. With therapy and help, this boy can overcome this condition. I can't help but think a parent would want their mentally or physically ill child to be healed and restored? I also raised my children to be accountable for their actions, and they are the adults I hoped they would be, but if my child had been ill, I would not expect him/her to be punished for what they could not control or prevent. Again, RAD is a mental disorder.




Absolutely true, neither one of us can speak for Vinnie.

The teachings of Christ also speak of compassion and forgiveness. Healing this child, forgiving him for what he could not control at the time of his crime, and then allowing him to live a normal life speaks volumes for God's love and the ability of the human soul to regain its humanity. At his young age, this child, in particular, has a chance to lead a productive life, but if everyone insists he be punished and forever ostracized, we might as well do what so many want which is to lock him in a jail and then go ahead and throw away the key. He will have a lifetime to carry the burden of this crime no matter what society feels must happen.

I don't know of anyone that has suggested that he should be locked away forever but he certainly should pay for what he has done, imo. This wasn't some simple infraction at school or other typical juvenile offenses. He murdered two human beings. That is as serious and deadly as it gets.

Vinnie nor Tim should never be made to pay for the sins of his mother if she caused the detachment. Other children suffer from RAD but they do not start murdering people at 8 years old imo.

I do not know what the future holds for this kid. Frankly I will be surprised if this is the last we hear about him. But I do think you are right.......he will mostly be ostracized throughout his life but then I think that is probably pretty typical for those who have killed people. I would say very few if any live a wonderful life once back out in society again.

We can speculate that he suffered from RAD but even if so he should not just be free as if the victims' lives didn't matter. He is not mentally ill. If so the defense would have never accepted the plea. If he cannot have emotional feelings for other human beings then he is very much a danger to society.

Whether forgiveness would have ever come from Vinnie or Tim doesn't have anything to do with God also expecting us to follow the laws of man. Asking for forgiveness or receiving it does not mean that someone is not to be held accountable for their own actions.

imo

 

[eyes4crime]

Reactive Attachment Disorder. The symptoms and the causes.

http://www.attachment.org/pages_what_is_rad.php

Looking over both lists, I could see a case for this condition, but I sure can't see a child being able to hide this condition from attentive and involved adults. Nothing in this child's background would indicate anyone was concerned about any of these issues. I wonder how many of this child's fellow classmates in kindergarten were also checked as manipulative. It is not an unusual trait in children this young and especially in only children. If he does have this disorder, and it was ignored by his family, friends, and the school, it does not make them bad people, but it does indicate they were poorly informed or neglectful. Perhaps they were hoping it was a "stage" he would outgrow. If he had RAD, I would think spanking and slapping him would make his condition and lack of trust even worse. If he is suffering from RAD, he did not cause himself to have this condition, and if it went unchecked, that was not his fault either. Do people really think this child should, at eight, be responsible for somehow discerning for himself that he had serious problems with bonding, was angry and reactive, and he should have been dealing with these problems on his own.

I am working with a child with this disorder, and it was not hard to detect after I got to know the child. Sadly, children in foster care suffer from this, but it is treatable. With patience and hard work, children can be helped. You can't just hope they will somehow heal themselves.

His age was always a factor and always will. He is nine. He was eight when he committed the crime. In six month, he will be ten. One of the first questions asked about a child for any educational/emotional/social evaluation is their age because every month and every year makes a huge difference in their development. HUGE difference. And he sure isn't an adult.


I sure don't object to this child getting his father's benefits. It is blood money if he killed his father to get the benefits. I seriously doubt he had any idea what was going to happen when committed these acts. I would like to think there is some way to help this child to recover and have some sort of normal life. Hasn't there been enough pain and heartbreak from all this?

Thank you for your compassionate, empathic post regarding this child of 8YO who had something in his upbringing so very disruptive, that the adults and professionals around him chose to ignore. This child is only 8yo which makes me wonder what's next in the court room - juice boxes and time outs!!

 

[Bobbisangel]

Thank you for your compassionate, empathic post regarding this child of 8YO who had something in his upbringing so very disruptive, that the adults and professionals around him chose to ignore. This child is only 8yo which makes me wonder what's next in the court room - juice boxes and time outs!!

Have you ever had a loved one like a husband...wife...child murdered? I wonder if your compassion, empathy, and ability to forgive would be the same if it actually happened to you? Maybe something horrible has happened in your family and you are just a bigger or different kind of person then I am.

The killer of my youngest daughter wasn't 8 yrs old but she is as dead as she would have been if he had been 8 yrs. It wouldn't matter what age the killer was to me. I doubt if I could find any compassion or empathy in my heart for the killer of my child whether he was 8 yrs or 80 yrs. No one knows if that boy is mentally ill. That is what the eval is all about.

As far as forgiveness goes...I haven't reached that point either. I find it really hard to forgive a person who shot my baby girl point blank three times...once in the chest...once in the neck...and once in the head and knew exactly what he was doing. Thank God no one made excuses for what he did.

 

[dgfred]

I think it is appalling. The government shouldn't pay the defendants for the crimes they have committed. This is blood money for sure, imo.

I agree Bobbi but I do understand why the CA chose Tim Romans. Tim was not family and died because he happened to be there and came to the boy's wolf cry of needing help.

So what they both settled for was a known outcome for both of them. The boy would be closely monitored for the next 9 years and get mental therapy and the state got an admission of guilt, that he did indeed kill Tim Romans. He put him at the scene when death was occurring (not after) and to this day no other suspect has ever been placed there nor are police looking for any suspect in the murder of Vinnie Romero. LE and the CA knows all too well who murdered Vinnie.

imo

Well if they are so sure, release ALL the evidence... couldn't hurt at this point. Might be why there haven't been any OTHER suspects, it is still possible because they have only released tidbits that the boy being the shooter was 'consistant' - no beyond a doubt stuff at all. With the blunders and lack of experience shown no wonder they offered the plea, their choices were plea or loose the case imo.

 

[mostlylurking]

Have you ever had a loved one like a husband...wife...child murdered? I wonder if your compassion, empathy, and ability to forgive would be the same if it actually happened to you? Maybe something horrible has happened in your family and you are just a bigger or different kind of person then I am.

The killer of my youngest daughter wasn't 8 yrs old but she is as dead as she would have been if he had been 8 yrs. It wouldn't matter what age the killer was to me. I doubt if I could find any compassion or empathy in my heart for the killer of my child whether he was 8 yrs or 80 yrs. No one knows if that boy is mentally ill. That is what the eval is all about.

As far as forgiveness goes...I haven't reached that point either. I find it really hard to forgive a person who shot my baby girl point blank three times...once in the chest...once in the neck...and once in the head and knew exactly what he was doing. Thank God no one made excuses for what he did.

Bobbisangel -- I am sorry for your loss. I have a similar experience -- not identical -- with my father. He lived a life where his demise was partly his own doing, though. Murder is murder, nonetheless. One of the people responsible (at least we think) died in prison a few years ago & we'll likely never know the truth of the situation.

I just want to say in this situation, the person accused is a child. I am not convinced of innocence or guilt either way -- the evidence doesn't support either in my book.

Had this been an adult accused, I doubt empathy would be too high in me - even if a horrific childhood were shown. But, in this case, the accused is still a child whose cognitive processing is so far from being developed that I just can hold the same level of accountability. -- Not justification for actions -- just not the same accountability -- even if he did this.

There has to be a different measure of dealing with and helping children than there is for adults. I don't know if that makes sense.