AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[Trino]

I've followed this case from the beginning and just want to say there are still some unanswered questions about the boy's current status.

We don't really know if the mother is having problems with the boy. A typical 10 year old in such confinement would suggest to me there are problems. Then, too, what about his interaction with the other child? Does the mother also believe he needs treatment?

The mother does not appear to be yelling that her child did not do these crimes and seems to support the plea bargain. I see this as a definite sign that the boy is guilty, and she truly knows where things stand.

It's been nearly a year since the crimes were committed, yet the boy has not received help. Hello, AZ. The boy is aging...

 

[mostlylurking]

This child did NOT confess to murdering these men. He said he shot them to put them out of their misery after he found them already shot.

Mom is still under a gag order, she can't say much whether she wants to or not.

So much "evidence" is sealed, we -- none of us -- really know what the state does or doesn't have. I do not believe that what has been presented or disclosed as evidence points solely to him.

The plea deal was taken before competence was determined.

We do not know what the psych reports said -- I don't recall seeing anything that said intensive residential treatment. -- Please link it if I've missed (or tell me where to find it).

There are similarities between the Inmon case and this. Though I'm not sure there will be a connection, I wouldn't be surprised if one did show up.

I don't believe that there is a nonsensical conspiracy theory at play -- but I do believe that there is a cover your a$$ approach to this child's case. The state effed this up from the day it happened -- investigation, miranda rights violations, evidence collection, releasing the crime scene before investigation was over, conflicting witness reports as reported by officers in the court as compared to the written reports prepared by witnesses.... putting a stay on the right to speedy trial & never lifting it or getting back on track, leaving the child on furlough & effective probation without an education plan that allows him to earn credits, or therapy that will apply to any disposition that may eventually happen...... (if they ever get their $$it together to finally come up with some kind of plan)

Whether this child is guilty or not, many criminals have gotten off on lesser technicalities. Our juvenile justice system sucks. Period.

I can't believe that the ACLU hasn't gotten involved just based on the civil rights violations of this child, to help create a long term solution that could help this child and set a standard for others.

And, no, Vince and Tim did not deserve to die. But surely one would believe, if this boy acted alone, that whatever happened to him to drive him to this action, he was undeserving of also. And if he really found them after the fact and thought he was showing mercy, that would need therapy, too.

It would be nice to take an approach that would actually help a child of 8 (now 9), who mentally has no maturity to really even understand all that has gone on and is still going on around him. Instead strangers who have never met him seem to speculate on the issues at hand, with no first hand knowledge of him or his family. Much of the "evidence" is sealed including all the psych reports. He is being condemed as worthless, not worth even really working with or having a chance at responding to it, and he is being diagnosed by what seems to be self proclaimed internet phych experts, whose credentials I don't know, but who have not seen formal evaluations that would allow diagnosis even if credentials exist. (If there are credentials in place, I do not mean to offend, I am just observing & expressing what I seem to see.)

I don't get it. It is sad to read such anger at a child of 8, with what feels like an attitude of lock him him & throw away the key, 'cause he ain't worth the time it would take to really investigate how to help & do this right..........

 

[fran]

Fran, I appreciate your post comparing these cases that you find similar, but it doesn't give me any reasonable doubt about this child's case.

Not to discount your feelings at all, but I think most of those of us who support this child and don't want to see him "thrown away" accept that he killed Romans and Romero. IMHO, to NOT accept this, we have to accept a vast and nonsensical conspiracy and nothing points to that. It just doesn't make a lick of sense that all of these people involved in this case want to hang a double murder on an elementary school kid.

I don't agree with you that MOST who support this child accept that he killed Romans. All have accepted his fate, but not necessarily agree with the 'guilt' part. There really is no choice in the matter. It is what it is. Doesn't mean it's right, just that it is.

I don't know about a conspiracy, but I've seen nothing but incompetence on every level of this case. I don't believe there was a thorough investigation nor complete investigation. Lab reports that even hinted as pointing towards the child could be debunked by any first year student forensic lab tech witness. There's not one piece of evidence that can prove, beyond a doubt, this child committed this crime. There are some who THINK it's proven by what the pros let into the public domain; but frankly, IMHO, not enough people in a row are convinced of this child's guilt, to insure a guilty conviction should it have gone to trial. FWIW, I actually talked to a forensic chemist, who does testify as an expert witness and from what I gathered, some of the alleged incriminating evidence tested, is questionable at best.

I don't believe it does any good to sit here and arm-chair psychoanalyze this child as it's virtually impossible to do if one has never even talked to the child. Nobody here knows what's going on with this boy and his family since they've been imprisoned in their own home. Of course what little is leaked by the pros is to make the boy appear as if he's troubled, that's their j o b. Being sure everyone believes it's the child who did this crime. After all, if they don't have the funds to treat the supposed criminal child, they certainly don't have the funds should they be told to investigate the case further and run additional forensic testing.

I think my feelings on this case are clear. I still don't believe he did this crime and a great injustice has not only been done to this child and his mom, but to the victims as well. The incompetence of this court doesn't help matters either. They keep messing with this child, they may end up with a civil liberty suit and end up releasing him with time served. Which, in a way would be unfortunate for this child, because even if he didn't kill these two men, the State of Arizona has at the least, made sure he NOW has some psychological problems with the way he's been treated and imprisoned in his own home and not allowed to talk to hardly any outside persons and denied his education for now, his second year.

JMHO
fran

 

[Fairy1]

Wonder how she is paying for that lawyer?

The boy's defense attorney stipulated to the states motion.

I have to wonder, if his mother really has his best interest in mind or if she even comprehends the magnitude of her son's issues.

Why is the subject of how his mother is paying for legal services relevant here? She's not on trial or charged with any crime. Maybe her lawyer is providing his services pro bono because he knows the child is innocent. At least she's trying to help him, not just write him off as a future habitual criminal and completely lost cause.

 

[Fairy1]

I don't agree with you that MOST who support this child accept that he killed Romans. All have accepted his fate, but not necessarily agree with the 'guilt' part. There really is no choice in the matter. It is what it is. Doesn't mean it's right, just that it is.

I don't know about a conspiracy, but I've seen nothing but incompetence on every level of this case. I don't believe there was a thorough investigation nor complete investigation. Lab reports that even hinted as pointing towards the child could be debunked by any first year student forensic lab tech witness. There's not one piece of evidence that can prove, beyond a doubt, this child committed this crime. There are some who THINK it's proven by what the pros let into the public domain; but frankly, IMHO, not enough people in a row are convinced of this child's guilt, to insure a guilty conviction should it have gone to trial. FWIW, I actually talked to a forensic chemist, who does testify as an expert witness and from what I gathered, some of the alleged incriminating evidence tested, is questionable at best.

I don't believe it does any good to sit here and arm-chair psychoanalyze this child as it's virtually impossible to do if one has never even talked to the child. Nobody here knows what's going on with this boy and his family since they've been imprisoned in their own home. Of course what little is leaked by the pros is to make the boy appear as if he's troubled, that's their j o b. Being sure everyone believes it's the child who did this crime. After all, if they don't have the funds to treat the supposed criminal child, they certainly don't have the funds should they be told to investigate the case further and run additional forensic testing.

I think my feelings on this case are clear. I still don't believe he did this crime and a great injustice has not only been done to this child and his mom, but to the victims as well. The incompetence of this court doesn't help matters either. They keep messing with this child, they may end up with a civil liberty suit and end up releasing him with time served. Which, in a way would be unfortunate for this child, because even if he didn't kill these two men, the State of Arizona has at the least, made sure he NOW has some psychological problems with the way he's been treated and imprisoned in his own home and not allowed to talk to hardly any outside persons and denied his education for now, his second year.

JMHO
fran

ITA Fran. And I have been in touch with people who DO know this little boy and DO believe he is innocent. Dragging this out further only serves to harm him and to highlight their own pathetic incompetence. IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't think anyone here can say with any certainty that this kid is not guilty of these horrid acts.

We have never been privy to all the evidence discovered in this case. When there are negotiations going on in a plea deal a lot of the evidence never comes to light. That not only happens in this case but others cases which are plead out as well.

What we do have though is an admission of guilt by the defendant and that is the judicial record which will stand. I really have seen no protest to the deal by any of his family members. While juvenile records are supposed to be sealed they never are if the defendant re-offends when an adult. Just like we learned all about Joesph Duncan criminal history when he was a juvenile. So if this kid ,who imo, has serious behavioral conduct disorders, does re-offend then maybe we will learn much more about this case. However; I hope no one is ever a victim of his again.

In fact I was watching the trial airing on IS today and it reminded me of this case. The Heynes case. He murdered three innocent people. He too from a young age had severe behavioral disorders and was in a special class for incorrigible kids all through high school. He also had received therapy and structure yet when he was around 20 years old, iirc he murdered x 3.. So the therapy nor structure worked for him.

It would not surprise me if we hear about this kid in the future. Imo, his conduct disorder is not treatable and that is why no one is wanting to take him.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Fran, I appreciate your post comparing these cases that you find similar, but it doesn't give me any reasonable doubt about this child's case.

Not to discount your feelings at all, but I think most of those of us who support this child and don't want to see him "thrown away" accept that he killed Romans and Romero. IMHO, to NOT accept this, we have to accept a vast and nonsensical conspiracy and nothing points to that. It just doesn't make a lick of sense that all of these people involved in this case want to hang a double murder on an elementary school kid.

You are right. It makes no sense at all, imo.

None.

imo

 

[Fairy1]

I don't think anyone here can say with any certainty that this kid is not guilty of these horrid acts.

We have never been privy to all the evidence discovered in this case. When there are negotiations going on in a plea deal a lot of the evidence never comes to light. That not only happens in this case but others cases which are plead out as well.

What we do have though is an admission of guilt by the defendant and that is the judicial record which will stand. I really have seen no protest to the deal by any of his family members. While juvenile records are supposed to be sealed they never are if the defendant re-offends when an adult. Just like we learned all about Joesph Duncan criminal history when he was a juvenile. So if this kid ,who imo, has serious behavioral conduct disorders, does re-offend then maybe we will learn much more about this case. However; I hope no one is ever a victim of his again.

In fact I was watching the trial airing on IS today and it reminded me of this case. The Heynes case. He murdered three innocent people. He too from a young age had severe behavioral disorders and was in a special class for incorrigible kids all through high school. He also had received therapy and structure yet when he was around 20 years old, iirc he murdered x 3.. So the therapy nor structure worked for him.

It would not surprise me if we hear about this kid in the future. Imo, his conduct disorder is not treatable and that is why no one is wanting to take him.

imo

With all due respect OBE, no one here can say that this little boy IS guilty of these horrid acts either.

I understand that any state would be hard pressed to handle a case involving an alleged 8-year-old murderer. However, the state of AZ, IMO, has consistently and tragically dropped the ball every, single step of the way in this specific case.

I really question the assertion that he has "behavioral issues" simply because that would have been mentioned in the original witness interviews, and it wasn't.

I also put a lot of stock into the fact that CR's mom is going to bat for him every step of the way. She may not have been "mother of the year" before this tragedy, but she sure is stepping up now. I really don't think she would if she honestly believed her son was a hopeless cause....IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

With all due respect OBE, no one here can say that this little boy IS guilty of these horrid acts either.

I understand that any state would be hard pressed to handle a case involving an alleged 8-year-old murderer. However, the state of AZ, IMO, has consistently and tragically dropped the ball every, single step of the way in this specific case.

I really question the assertion that he has "behavioral issues" simply because that would have been mentioned in the original witness interviews, and it wasn't.

I also put a lot of stock into the fact that CR's mom is going to bat for him every step of the way. She may not have been "mother of the year" before this tragedy, but she sure is stepping up now. I really don't think she would if she honestly believed her son was a hopeless cause....IMO

That is true. No one here that is not privy to all of the evidence against this kid can say he is guilty or not guilty.

However; when an admission of guilt has been made in open court and accepted by the Judge that shows that the defendant is guilty by his own admission.

Yes, I do have to say that his mother has stood by him. I wouldn't expect her to be any different than all the many mothers of other defendants who have stood by their child also and continued to do so even after a conviction. I do not think a mother who has a child this age looks at her child as a hopeless cause even if she has been told the treatment may not work. Denial is a coping mechanism and it helps them deal with the issues in front of them by rearranging the truth.

I respectfully don't agree. Lay witnesses are not professional psychiatrists who have extensively analyzed this child for months. Although the threats to kill his father prior to this happening and saying he bullied other younger children does show even back then that he did have behavioral problems imo. Also his lack of affect about his father's death showed a child unable to feel remorse, imo.

I respect everyones opinion about this case but from day one I have always felt this was no ordinary 8 year old child. I still believe he murdered both of these men. Whether he can be treated is still unknown. I hope for everyones sake he can be.

imo

 

[dgfred]

Whether you think (feel) that he is guilty or not does not change the fact that this boy's rights have been trampled and his situation now is a tragedy in itself... one glance at the case shows that to all. Squashing the boy's rights should not be the path to showing rights/respect for the victims.

Also IF the boy is indeed the sole shooter, what could have possibly brought this on? As Linda has spouted, is it he turned into a twisted psychopathic killer all of a sudden... or was he born that way? This is a major question and should be relevant to the people of StJohns imo.

Prosecution/LE has shown by their actions/words that what is best for the boy is not their concern and it is more a matter of covering their behinds. Not a conspiracy, but at every turn something happens or is said that smells awfully fishy.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think anyone here can say with any certainty that this kid is not guilty of these horrid acts.

We have never been privy to all the evidence discovered in this case. When there are negotiations going on in a plea deal a lot of the evidence never comes to light. That not only happens in this case but others cases which are plead out as well.

What we do have though is an admission of guilt by the defendant and that is the judicial record which will stand. I really have seen no protest to the deal by any of his family members. While juvenile records are supposed to be sealed they never are if the defendant re-offends when an adult. Just like we learned all about Joesph Duncan criminal history when he was a juvenile. So if this kid ,who imo, has serious behavioral conduct disorders, does re-offend then maybe we will learn much more about this case. However; I hope no one is ever a victim of his again.

In fact I was watching the trial airing on IS today and it reminded me of this case. The Heynes case. He murdered three innocent people. He too from a young age had severe behavioral disorders and was in a special class for incorrigible kids all through high school. He also had received therapy and structure yet when he was around 20 years old, iirc he murdered x 3.. So the therapy nor structure worked for him.

It would not surprise me if we hear about this kid in the future. Imo, his conduct disorder is not treatable and that is why no one is wanting to take him.

imo

I agree with everything you said IMO His shrinks have uncovered disturbing information that the depth and scope of this boy's psychological make-up is such that in all likelihood...he's a psychopath.

 

[Linda7NJ]

With all due respect OBE, no one here can say that this little boy IS guilty of these horrid acts either.

I understand that any state would be hard pressed to handle a case involving an alleged 8-year-old murderer. However, the state of AZ, IMO, has consistently and tragically dropped the ball every, single step of the way in this specific case.

I really question the assertion that he has "behavioral issues" simply because that would have been mentioned in the original witness interviews, and it wasn't.

I also put a lot of stock into the fact that CR's mom is going to bat for him every step of the way. She may not have been "mother of the year" before this tragedy, but she sure is stepping up now. I really don't think she would if she honestly believed her son was a hopeless cause....IMO

I don't think they dropped the ball. They were investigating a double murder and they caught the murderer.

You don't think anything was amiss when his own grandmother "knew" he did it?

I put no stock in the fact the mother goes to bat for him. All I have to do is look at Cindy Anthony, Scott Peterson's mother, and countless others that stand by their guilty offspring.

A parent, IMO should never give up on their child.

I happen to believe he can not be fixed. That doesn't mean they shouldn't try. There is no alternative. I'll quietly hope I am wrong, but I don't think so.

 

[dgfred]

I agree with everything you said IMO His shrinks have uncovered disturbing information that the depth and scope of this boy's psychological make-up is such that in all likelihood...he's a psychopath.

Yeah the judge probably saw what you have... and decided to let the little psychopath go live with his mom . Probably more likely the disturbing information showed the boy wasn't a danger to anyone anymore, thus his decision.

 

[dgfred]

I don't think they dropped the ball. They were investigating a double murder and they caught the murderer.

You don't think anything was amiss when his own grandmother "knew" he did it?

I put no stock in the fact the mother goes to bat for him. All I have to do is look at Cindy Anthony, Scott Peterson's mother, and countless others that stand by their guilty offspring.

A parent, IMO should never give up on their child.

I happen to believe he can not be fixed. That doesn't mean they shouldn't try. There is no alternative. I'll quietly hope I am wrong, but I don't think so.

The caught the murderer alright, after they talked him into it. With the violation of rights evident in this case, an adult suspect would have gotten off scot free whether he/she was the actual shooter or not... why not the kid, he at least deserves the same rights as anyone else.
Maybe the amiss part is how you are taking what the grandmother actually said/meant... because you have no idea of her meaning.
I believe and hope he can be helped, but so far they are not really trying for that route by the treatment (or lack thereof) and their underhanded dealings with this case.
The quieter the better :silenced: .

imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yeah the judge probably saw what you have... and decided to let the little psychopath go live with his mom . Probably more likely the disturbing information showed the boy wasn't a danger to anyone anymore, thus his decision.

The judge made no such determination. I know I've explained this to you before. This is the way the system works with juveniles.

Did you miss the terms and conditions....it's basically house arrest, he can't even attend public school or public events.

Check out number 16 and refresh your memory

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...ER REGARDING FURLOUGH CONDITIONS 06162009.pdf

 

[Linda7NJ]

The caught the murderer alright, after they talked him into it. With the violation of rights evident in this case, an adult suspect would have gotten off scot free whether he/she was the actual shooter or not... why not the kid, he at least deserves the same rights as anyone else.
Maybe the amiss part is how you are taking what the grandmother actually said/meant... because you have no idea of her meaning.
I believe and hope he can be helped, but so far they are not really trying for that route by the treatment (or lack thereof) and their underhanded dealings with this case.
The quieter the better :silenced: .

imo

Just so I am clear..........You wanted this kid to get off scott free regardless if he murdered two men or not? Who exactly does that benefit?

Would you rather he be tried as an adult? The juvenile system is set up to at least attempt to rehabilitate. Ya can't have it both ways. You use his young age to shield him, yet complain when he's treated like a child. Pick one.

 

[dgfred]

Just so I am clear..........You wanted this kid to get off scott free regardless if he murdered two men or not? Who exactly does that benefit?

Would you rather he be tried as an adult? The juvenile system is set up to at least attempt to rehabilitate. Ya can't have it both ways. You use his young age to shield him, yet complain when he's treated like a child. Pick one.

Read please, read. That is not what I posted.

At this point I would want a trial, juvenile or adult doesn't matter to me. With the case they have I don't think there would be a conviction. What benefits is he getting now? And by the way, even if it is called house arrest by you... he is still living with his mom. Not the usual for a psychotic killer as you have labled him... there is no way to 'spin' it otherwise. Rights are rights regardless of age, so no pick necessary.
You say 'this is how the juvenile system works'. If this is so it needs revamping. Put a killer (as you say) with his mom, don't let him get credits for schooling he has to attend, leave his case in limbo for an extended period of time, file false accusation against the child, threaten to put him in jail again and again, delay after unneeded delay, no money for treatment, etc... What exactly in this system seems right to you, what rehabilitation is he getting?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Read please, read. That is not what I posted.

At this point I would want a trial, juvenile or adult doesn't matter to me. With the case they have I don't think there would be a conviction. What benefits is he getting now? And by the way, even if it is called house arrest by you... he is still living with his mom. Not the usual for a psychotic killer as you have labeled him... there is no way to 'spin' it otherwise. Rights are rights regardless of age, so no pick necessary.
You say 'this is how the juvenile system works'. If this is so it needs revamping. Put a killer (as you say) with his mom, don't let him get credits for schooling he has to attend, leave his case in limbo for an extended period of time, file false accusation against the child, threaten to put him in jail again and again, delay after unneeded delay, no money for treatment, etc... What exactly in this system seems right to you, what rehabilitation is he getting?

The system may need a overhaul, but it is what it is. This is the way it works. Oftentimes, it takes up to a year to evaluate and find an appropriate placement for young violent offenders .....and I'm not talking about young double murders. I am talking about young sexual predators. Considering this kid is certainly an anomaly...I think the process is going rather smoothly.

It's a shame he wasn't taken by CPS from his mother and placed in the interim in a therapeutic foster home with no other children. Then they would have been responsible for footing the bill.

 

[dgfred]

'Rather smoothly' :slap: your views are certainly interesting I must admit.

Yeah, so far they have been bending over backwards to help this kid, not.

 

[Linda7NJ]

But Judge Roca is a problem too: How can a 8yr old agree to a plea deal in the first place? Of course they will be back to square one if he violates his probation... seems that has been the objective all along to get the kid into detention/jail for good. IMO he did not confess to others before the interview about being the shooter. In fact when asked about Tim- 'why would I shoot Tim' with a noticeable tone of disbelief is clearly heard. Also EVERY piece of evidence released has a 'counter-theory' on it's meaning and relevance... and is highly ambiguous (especially the fingerprint stuff) and GSR reports. Good lawyers would slash this case to ribbons at a trial.

Juvenilies enter into plea agreements all the time.