Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

[inbetweendoors]

If we look at BillAndrew's timeline, at around 7:30pm on July 3rd, it doesn't look good for MS. Did Millard leave the gun, or the ammunition that he had picked up earlier that day, at the top of the stairs for Smich? Whatever it was, it triggered the reply from MS that he needed a small favour from DM, some money. MS knew that the "present" was not money.

Then DM leaves for an hour, leaving MS and LB together in the house. From 7:30 pm until about 1:00 am, the phones are silent.

Jul 37:03 pmBabcock's phone calls her voicemail, the final call reported on her phone records. It pings a tower near Maple Gate.Babcock Day 9: Fortier testimony
Jul 37:26 pmMillard texts Smich: "present for you at the top of the stairs."Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 37:32 pmSmich texts Millard: "Thank u. I need a small favour. Some change for food. I'm out of cash."Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 37:33 pmMillard texts Smich: "tru. I'm on a mission, back in 1 hr."

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml

I think the present on the stairs was the Heineken beer.

Smich asks "guess you couldn't get drinks", then Millard's next message to him is "scooped some heini".

 

[JuneBug67]

Changes are good imo.
I know people that can't roll joints to save their soul, and always have someone else do it for them.
This one is definitely up for debate, but could easily be a reference to a literal spliff.

I like how you laid out your logic and reasoning too.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

I wonder if first spliff could possibly mean first spliff of the day as well, rather than first spliff ever.

 

[inbetweendoors]

I wonder if first spliff could possibly mean first spliff of the day as well, rather than first spliff ever.

Maybe, but I think he would then say "a spliff" as opposed to "my first". Telling someone you just rolled a spliff would generally be taken as an invitation to partake. "My first" is more of a humble brag lol.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[jash]

Ha...I believe you're absolutely right Fionn. When they text k to each other it means okay. In the previous text MS typed "kkk my " so DM typed the acronym for "are you a klansman" because of the triple k in MS's text. As a joke. Of course MS didn't get it and responded back with the acronym and a question mark. DM appears to have just ignored that and moved on to a different topic in his next text rather than explain it to MS.

MOO

I've never heard of that acronym before but I think you are all correct. And now it has me thinking about the strange obituary DM wrote for his father where he included the line "The only people he feared were racists."

 

[Just4TB]

What are the chances that “spliff” just meant spliff?
Smich wakes up mid-afternoon and just responds to the conversation he sees on the phone without much attention to the time it was sent, essentially saying I’m awake now how’s the spliff. The spliff text was poorly formatted “How’s the. spliff”, and may reflect a bleary person’s just woken fingers and thought process.

RSBM
To me, MS asking "hows the. spliff" indicates the word is codified. It is established that DM and MS used code... eg "talking to that girl" "if you know what I mean"

I cannot imagine MS asking that question if it was a literal spliff. The question was asked in the present tense, a literal spliff would likely have been consumed by that time, and the question might be past tense "how was the spliff". Additionally, the . in the text can be read as a pause. Hows the (pause) spliff?

Code fits, a spliff is rolled prior to being burned. The tarp appears rolled. The "high" was the thrill of it all, as was their demeanor after TB's "mission"

IMO, LB in the tarp was the rolled spliff.

 

[Grey-St]

It's so interesting to see everyone's different perspectives and interpretations, anything is possible as long as it lines up with the evidence we have so far. I'm also of the belief that the present at the top of the stairs was beer.

Smich texts Millard: "I guess u couldn't get drinks."
Millard texts Smich: "I'll scoop some heini."
Millard texts Smich: "present for you at the top of the stairs."

It's unfortunate that we don't have a clearer picture of some of the evidence, however. I hope it's not the case for the jury. It was said that DM, MS, and LB's phones pinged along the Lakeshore together on the 4th. But the text messages suggest that MS stayed behind at Maplegate.

 

[mimimic]

Is it possible that DM was not the big boss and he actually answered to someone else - like isho/scottymoose/? etc

DM texted someone with a name like scotty moose in the TB trial when he said things turned sour and that wasn't until about the 9th.

I think this was, as he told MM his new toy. He and MS did what ever they did to poor LB and her family and friends by trying out the bosses toy first, themselves, as a side kick off to bigger payoffs.

 

[RezButt]

Is it possible that DM was not the big boss and he actually answered to someone else - like isho/scottymoose/? etc

DM texted someone with a name like scotty moose in the TB trial when he said things turned sour and that wasn't until about the 9th.

I think this was, as he told MM his new toy. He and MS did what ever they did to poor LB and her family and friends by trying out the bosses toy first, themselves, as a side kick off to bigger payoffs.

No, respectfully of course.

 

[JuneBug67]

By far the hinkiest thing in the text evidence for the critical time period is that “Don’t be out front.” It’s hard to interpret that as anything other than I don’t want you to be seen, or I don’t want you to see me.

The sinister interpretations that implicate a plan and MS’ involvement are obvious. Just trying to brainstorm some more benign possibilities as far as MS goes:

I want to get laid later and I don’t need my conquest knowing there is somebody as degenerate as you in the house. You embarrass me.

I have to go to Iisho’s (or on some other mission) and I can’t take Laura. I need her to stay here and don’t want your degenerate presence to spook her or cause her to hassle me to not to leave her there with a stranger while I go on my mission. She can be a relentless pain in the and I don’t need the hassle, because I have to get where I’m going.

I might want to get back with Kinks soon and I don’t need Marlena knowing I have another woman in my truck. Chicks talk.

I’m hiding you from my dad, you degenerate, and my coming home may prompt him to come out to talk to me.

My mind is already gone to dark places and plans and I don’t want any witnesses, not even you. This will be the perfect murder. I don’t care about anyone in any real way, and that means I don’t trust anyone in any real way. Especially not degenerates such as yourself.

I love you my and I really want you to squee in tender and childlike delight when I surprise you with the heini at the tip of the stairs! Kisses!

 

[billandrew]

What are the chances that “spliff” just meant spliff? DM texts “I rolled my first spliff” at 10 am, and if one was a wake and bake type, that would be a reasonable time and could be read as an invitation if MS was awake. When MS wakes up mid afternoon he texts saying that he’s up now, and then a second text “How’s. the spliff.” Could it just be a tendency of MS’ to answer texts hours later without particular attention to when the conversation was started? We possibly saw that with his 9:14 am “Aight” which was presumably a reply to DM’s 2:10 am text that he would come talk to him in the morning.

It seems to me you might not think of calling a body in a tarp a spliff until after you actually did the rolling and ended up with the visual. DM doesn’t take or send a photo with that 10 am text, so it’s worth wondering if or how DM and MS could have formed this code for a body in a tarp beforehand if this one was the purported “first”.

Reviewing the texts and timeline of the 4th, it looks to me like DM plugged that iPad in alone, possibly to charge, and then left while MS was sleeping. Otherwise, why the need to text MS in about the time it would have taken to get to where he was when he sent the text that he was gone to Waterloo with Pedo?

So all that would look like this:

MS goes to bed shortly after he sends his 9:14 am text in response to the 2:10 am text from DM. Other conversations and timelines suggest it is not unusual for MS to stay up all night and sleep late in the day.

DM rolls a joint about 45 minutes later and texts MS, potentially intending it as an invite. MS is now crashed and doesn’t respond.

DM plugs in the iPad about 30 minutes later and then takes off for Waterloo. Texts Smich a few minutes later from the road telling him he’s headed to the hangar with Pedo and he’ll be back later, he left some money, then a likely drug reference to heroin. This could have happened when he stopped to dispose of Laura’s phone. Last ping was 11:00, texts to Smich we’re at 11:03.

Smich wakes up mid-afternoon and just responds to the conversation he sees on the phone without much attention to the time it was sent, essentially saying I’m awake now how’s the spliff. The spliff text was poorly formatted “How’s the. spliff”, and may reflect a bleary person’s just woken fingers and thought process.

DM responds that he’s on his way back. There’s nothing to say about a spliff he smoked 5 hours previously, and we’ve seen him just ignore MS’ other misunderstandings and dumb comments (ayak?).

Taken with literally every other thing that makes it look like MS is clueless that a murder is taking place under his nose, it would make some sense.

These are exactly my thoughts based on the evidence we've heard so far. Based on the July 3-4 evidence alone, IMO it's more reasonable to conclude that MS was not involved in carrying out LB's murder than to conclude that he was involved. It looks like DM was flying solo for this one.

Looking at the bigger picture then: was MS involved in planning LB's murder? Maybe. He clearly helped DM acquire guns and incinerators, and IMO he knew or expected that these tools would eventually be used for "ruthless" and sinister acts. In that regard, he was at least partially involved in planning to commit murder(s) in the future. However, was he involved in planning to kill LB specifically? I can't tell, and maybe it doesn't matter to find him guilty of M1 in this case.

To summarize my current view: MS's unique relationship with DM, his participation in acquiring the "tools of murder", and his complicity (and other actions) after the fact strongly support MS as somebody who was willing and planning to participate in a murder. However, it's not clear whether he knew about or planned to kill LB specifically, and IMO the evidence suggests that DM carried this one out on his own.

 

[mimimic]

They are fn crazy to think they could drive mobile and off people as they go and steal from them and just keep on truckn!

If that was their plan.

Isho (SP) and the salesman he was..".in code" he could have been a "veterinarian" I am sure he could have hooked them up with some potential customers. God i am glad they caught them so early!

 

[JuneBug67]

RSBM
To me, MS asking "hows the. spliff" indicates the word is codified. It is established that DM and MS used code... eg "talking to that girl" "if you know what I mean"

I cannot imagine MS asking that question if it was a literal spliff. The question was asked in the present tense, a literal spliff would likely have been consumed by that time, and the question might be past tense "how was the spliff". Additionally, the . in the text can be read as a pause. Hows the (pause) spliff?

Code fits, a spliff is rolled prior to being burned. The tarp appears rolled. The "high" was the thrill of it all, as was their demeanor after TB's "mission"

IMO, LB in the tarp was the rolled spliff.

I agree with all of this interpretation and logic if we could be sure Smich was actually dialed in to the fact that he was answering text messages several hours old. As we saw with the seven hour delay previously, it may just be his habit to pick up the phone and and answer whatever is on the screen at times. He also could have actually meant “ how was the spliff”. Texts are notoriously easy to mess up, as evidenced by things like “what you’d do?!”.

They talked in code, but they also did a lot of drugs together. Either reference might be expected in a conversation between them. It’s not an easy call, particularly with little to no other context there on those two days that suggests they’re planning and executing a murder together.

 

[brightii]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...used-killers-testing-incinerator-dimanno.html

Could MS really have a new girlfriend?

It’s been a long time since I’ve posted here, but I’ve been following the trial and hoping with you all for justice for Laura.

All the best in your sleuthing fellow WSers.

 

[inbetweendoors]

By far the hinkiest thing in the text evidence for the critical time period is that “Don’t be out front.” It’s hard to interpret that as anything other than I don’t want you to be seen, or I don’t want you to see me.

The sinister interpretations that implicate a plan and MS’ involvement are obvious. Just trying to brainstorm some more benign possibilities as far as MS goes:

I want to get laid later and I don’t need my conquest knowing there is somebody as degenerate as you in the house. You embarrass me.

I have to go to Iisho’s (or on some other mission) and I can’t take Laura. I need her to stay here and don’t want your degenerate presence to spook her or cause her to hassle me to not to leave her there with a stranger while I go on my mission. She can be a relentless pain in the and I don’t need the hassle, because I have to get where I’m going.

I might want to get back with Kinks soon and I don’t need Marlena knowing I have another woman in my truck. Chicks talk.

I’m hiding you from my dad, you degenerate, and my coming home may prompt him to come out to talk to me.

My mind is already gone to dark places and plans and I don’t want any witnesses, not even you. This will be the perfect murder. I don’t care about anyone in any real way, and that means I don’t trust anyone in any real way. Especially not degenerates such as yourself.

I love you my and I really want you to squee in tender and childlike delight when I surprise you with the heini at the tip of the stairs! Kisses!

I laughed out loud. Loved every bit of that and think it's all entirely possible.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

 

[matou]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...used-killers-testing-incinerator-dimanno.html

Could MS really have a new girlfriend?

It’s been a long time since I’ve posted here, but I’ve been following the trial and hoping with you all for justice for Laura.

All the best in your sleuthing fellow WSers.

Ugh. A groupie no doubt. SMDH

 

[brightii]

FWIW, I wonder and worry what the outcome of the trial will be when I consider the evidence as if I were a juror without knowledge of the TB trial details.

The way everything is being presented so far, I think it would be quite confusing for the jurors, especially without the luxury of deeper context of the TB trial and the other pending trial and M1 charge against DM re WM.

DM has IMO successfully added to the confusion every time he opens his mouth to cross examine witnesses. Sometimes, after he is finished speaking I have forgotten so many of the pertinent details the Crown has raised and find myself going in circles.

I felt so badly for DM's uncle the day he testified, but I also worry that his testimony, and especially the hostile way he delivered it, could work in DM's favour by making the jurors feel some sort of sympathy for DM. I hope not, but sometimes when someone is perceived to be coldly rejected or attacked by that someone's family member, it can elicit a reaction of empathy in response to the lack of it demonstrated by the accused's loved one.

 

[brightii]

As for MM's recent testimony, IMO she lied outright about never having heard about LB prior to this trial.

The possible DM/MS connection to LB's disappearance and murder were reported widely in MSM years ago during the TB murder investigation, IMO. It just made me trust even less what MM said on the stand if she were able to lie about having ever heard of LB before now. It doesn't make sense to me that since MM was MS's girlfriend at the time of the TB murder and at the time of LB's disappearance that she would not have made it her "mission" to read everything related to these crimes, IMO.

And I can never forget that LE initially arrested AM for M1 in TB's murder, IIRC, and I'm pretty sure I do, so whatever he has to say on the stand holds little weight for me.

None of the players associated to DM and MS have much credibility if any, IMO. They have all demonstrated to me that they are only concerned with their own best interests, IMO.

The jury of course will not be influenced as I would be because unlike me they will have no idea about the history of these unconscionable cast of characters, IMO.

All MOO.

 

[mimimic]

There is more to this at the end of these texts about the food and cash MS says... ( to DM be back in an hour) He says ok. Let's grab something after

If we look at BillAndrew's timeline, at around 7:30pm on July 3rd, it doesn't look good for MS. Did Millard leave the gun, or the ammunition that he had picked up earlier that day, at the top of the stairs for Smich? Whatever it was, it triggered the reply from MS that he needed a small favour from DM, some money. MS knew that the "present" was not money.

Then DM leaves for an hour, leaving MS and LB together in the house. From 7:30 pm until about 1:00 am, the phones are silent.

Jul 3 7:03 pm Babcock's phone calls her voicemail, the final call reported on her phone records. It pings a tower near Maple Gate. Babcock Day 9: Fortier testimony
Jul 3 7:26 pm Millard texts Smich: "present for you at the top of the stairs." Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 3 7:32 pm Smich texts Millard: "Thank u. I need a small favour. Some change for food. I'm out of cash." Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 3 7:33 pm Millard texts Smich: "tru. I'm on a mission, back in 1 hr."

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml

 

[JuneBug67]

As for MM's recent testimony, IMO she lied outright about never having heard about LB prior to this trial.

The possible DM/MS connection to LB's disappearance and murder were reported widely in MSM years ago during the TB murder investigation, IMO. It just made me trust even less what MM said on the stand if she were able to lie about having ever heard of LB before now. It doesn't make sense to me that since MM was MS's girlfriend at the time of the TB murder and at the time of LB's disappearance that she would not have made it her "mission" to read everything related to these crimes, IMO.

And I can never forget that LE initially arrested AM for M1 in TB's murder, IIRC, and I'm pretty sure I do, so whatever he has to say on the stand holds little weight for me.

None of the players associated to DM and MS have much credibility if any, IMO. They have all demonstrated to me that they are only concerned with their own best interests, IMO.

The jury of course will not be influenced as I would be because unlike me they will have no idea about the history of these unconscionable cast of characters, IMO.

All MOO.

MM said she never knew anything about a Laura Babcock until the charges in April 2014. I think that’s more than plausible. She and MS were not meaningfully integrated in the larger group of friends and the hangouts DM had with LB were usually furtive.

 

[brightii]

MM said she never knew anything about a Laura Babcock until the charges in April 2014. I think that’s more than plausible. She and MS were not meaningfully integrated in the larger group of friends and the hangouts DM had with LB were usually furtive.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle14188697/

Well this article is just one example of MSM coverage of the Laura Babcock disappearance when LE went back to DM's farm in September 9th, 2013. I truly cannot be convinced that everyone closely associated to DM and/or MS - including MM - would not have been paying keen attention to the saturation of MSM news items that related to either of them, IMO.

All MOO