Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

[Nakasaka]

Smich texts Millard: "R u here or did u dip?" Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 3 2:53 pm Smich texts Millard: "It's raining
Babcock Day 13: Falconer testimony
Jul 3 3:09 pm Millard texts Smich: "how bout the white & brown paint over the side entrance? no rain there

Appears to be another coded text....I checked historical toronto weather frcst - there were no rain on july 3 .. partly cloudy with temp around 24/27C....
Any thoughts anyone?

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle14188697/

Well this article is just one example of MSM coverage of the Laura Babcock disappearance when LE went back to DM's farm in September 9th, 2013. I truly cannot be convinced that everyone closely associated to DM and/or MS - including MM - would not have been paying keen attention to the saturation of MSM news items that related to either of them, IMO.

All MOO

This is a fair point, possible she can't say much about that since the answer would involve them being arrested when this search went down. I would guess the answer was she didn't know about LB before police started asking her about her.

 

[winter2017]

JuneBug67, I highly doubt what she said is true, she spent a lot of time with MS all the time and I don't think he did not talk about Laura. She told what she wanted to and that is it.
The slippers I believe belonged to Laura and I am sure they all knew it. The crown may say something about it because why else show the picture. I even think MM may be in possession of other things that belonged to Laura.
They all are beyond despicable. Those who got away with no charges in these cases I believe we will hear from them again. These are people that I doubt know how to stay away from trouble, it is in their DNA.
I never believe a leopard changes their spots, maybe in rare cases but usually very rare.
I think it is possible we will hear some of the names of some of these characters again, I am 99.9% sure we will,

 

[Bluepopsicle]

MM said she never knew anything about a Laura Babcock until the charges in April 2014. I think that’s more than plausible. She and MS were not meaningfully integrated in the larger group of friends and the hangouts DM had with LB were usually furtive.

Shannon Martin reported that MM had never heard of Laura until this trial.
If that’s her testimony and not a reporting error (which as we’ve seen is entirely possible!), then I don’t believe that.

Nov 17 2017 12:19 PM

Meneses told the court about Millard giving Smich an iPad, which he used for his rapping.

The court*has previously heard Babcock's iPad, given to her by her former boyfriend Shawn Lerner as a gift, was plugged into one of Millard's computers in early July, 2012. The Crown contends this happened after Babcock's alleged murder.

Crown Jill Cameron, "Have you ever met a woman named Laura Babcock?"*

Meneses, "No."

Cameron, "Before this trial, had you ever heard of her?"

Meneses, "No."

 

[brightii]

Shannon Martin reported that MM had never heard of Laura until this trial.
If that’s her testimony and not a reporting error (which as we’ve seen is entirely possible!), then I don’t believe that.

Nov 17 2017 12:19 PM

Meneses told the court about Millard giving Smich an iPad, which he used for his rapping.

The court*has previously heard Babcock's iPad, given to her by her former boyfriend Shawn Lerner as a gift, was plugged into one of Millard's computers in early July, 2012. The Crown contends this happened after Babcock's alleged murder.

Crown Jill Cameron, "Have you ever met a woman named Laura Babcock?"*

Meneses, "No."

Cameron, "Before this trial, had you ever heard of her?"

Meneses, "No."

I don't know if the Crown instructed MM to say no to the question because of the TB trial, but I cannot imagine that they would, IMO. It would have been enough to ask if she had ever met LB rather than follow up with the question if MM had ever heard of her, IMO.

I found the infamous press conference dated June 4th, 2013 by TPS:

[video=youtube;hwLgv3YhsTM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwLgv3YhsTM[/video]

I find it near impossible to imagine that MM and the others would not have known about LB's disappearance at that time since it was mere weeks after charges were laid against DM and MS.

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

CBC characterized it like this:

“Meneses testified Friday she never met Laura Babcock, and had never heard of her until charges were laid against her ex. (Toronto Police Service)”

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/laura-babcock-jansz-day-18-1.4406555

There’s no advantage to MM to claim that she knew about her after the April 2014 charges if she really knew about her after the Bosma charges. Why would that matter? Babcock was connected to Millard in the media, not to Smich. Teenagers generally pay attention to their own worlds and to their Facebook feeds, not to The Globe and Mail.

There is plenty of evidence that Millard mostly kept his two social circles apart, and Laura was well on the outs by the time MM started dating Smich anyway. And then within three months of that she was dead. There was no opportunity for MM to know who Babcock was, and that’s what her testimony reflects.

 

[Inspector_North]

As for MM's recent testimony, IMO she lied outright about never having heard about LB prior to this trial.

The possible DM/MS connection to LB's disappearance and murder were reported widely in MSM years ago during the TB murder investigation, IMO. It just made me trust even less what MM said on the stand if she were able to lie about having ever heard of LB before now. It doesn't make sense to me that since MM was MS's girlfriend at the time of the TB murder and at the time of LB's disappearance that she would not have made it her "mission" to read everything related to these crimes, IMO.

And I can never forget that LE initially arrested AM for M1 in TB's murder, IIRC, and I'm pretty sure I do, so whatever he has to say on the stand holds little weight for me.

None of the players associated to DM and MS have much credibility if any, IMO. They have all demonstrated to me that they are only concerned with their own best interests, IMO.

The jury of course will not be influenced as I would be because unlike me they will have no idea about the history of these unconscionable cast of characters, IMO.

All MOO.

IIRC, MM mentioned at the TB trial that she was friends with AM, and they stayed in contact. I'm sure MM and AM have had conversations about TB, LB, and WM. MOO

 

[brightii]

CBC characterized it like this:

“Meneses testified Friday she never met Laura Babcock, and had never heard of her until charges were laid against her ex. (Toronto Police Service)”

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/laura-babcock-jansz-day-18-1.4406555

There’s no advantage to MM to claim that she knew about her after the April 2014 charges if she really knew about her after the Bosma charges. Why would that matter? Babcock was connected to Millard in the media, not to Smich. Teenagers generally pay attention to their own worlds and to their Facebook feeds, not to The Globe and Mail.

There is plenty of evidence that Millard mostly kept his two social circles apart, and Laura was well on the outs by the time MM started dating Smich anyway. And then within three months of that she was dead. There was no opportunity for MM to know who Babcock was, and that’s what her testimony reflects.

I respectfully disagree.

MM was not in May 2013 a typical teenager, IMO. The news about Laura Babcock was all over the media, on Facebook feeds etc. in early June of 2013. MM was the girlfriend of MS at the time of TB's murder, and at the time of LB's disappearance. MM's boyfriend, MS was charged in May 2013 with M1 along with DM, and when the TPS did the news conference on June 4th, 2013 which was shown on MSM and shared on Facebook and Twitter at that time, so there is a connection between DM and MS and MM, IMO and it makes sense to me that MM would have had every reason to pay attention to the media involving any of them.

It makes little sense to me in light of her involvement with MS and association to DM that she would not have ever even heard about LB prior to the M1 charges for DM and MS in April 2014. If she was obliviously living in a bubble, I'm sure plenty of her family members and friends would have alerted her to and commented about the news, IMO. It just seems very disingenuous in the least, IMO, for MM to plead ignorance on ever having heard of LB.

All MOO.

 

[JuneBug67]

It’s possible that MM’s recollections are out of order - we’ve seen possible examples of that in her testimony at both trials. But I think we’re maybe over-parsing this. I think the Crown’s point was that LB was not known by MM while she was alive, either directly or indirectly, and that she didn’t have any other insider information up until the time MS was arrested and beyond. That is more than plausible.

 

[brightii]

IIRC, MM mentioned at the TB trial that she was friends with AM, and they stayed in contact. I'm sure MM and AM have had conversations about TB, LB, and WM. MOO

I had forgotten about this point. Thank you for posting this as it only strengthens my opinion of MM. If AM testifies it should be interesting.

All MOO.

 

[Grey-St]

CBC characterized it like this:

“Meneses testified Friday she never met Laura Babcock, and had never heard of her until charges were laid against her ex. (Toronto Police Service)”

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/laura-babcock-jansz-day-18-1.4406555

There’s no advantage to MM to claim that she knew about her after the April 2014 charges if she really knew about her after the Bosma charges. Why would that matter? Babcock was connected to Millard in the media, not to Smich. Teenagers generally pay attention to their own worlds and to their Facebook feeds, not to The Globe and Mail.

There is plenty of evidence that Millard mostly kept his two social circles apart, and Laura was well on the outs by the time MM started dating Smich anyway. And then within three months of that she was dead. There was no opportunity for MM to know who Babcock was, and that’s what her testimony reflects.

I agree, completely- and I'll give further reasoning why.

When MM gave her statement to police after MS was originally arrested and charged, LB wasn't even on their radar. Only TB. She was likely only questioned about her knowledge of a truck theft and a murder relating to it. This could have likely been her only statement to police. Later on, as the investigation opened up to LB's disappearance, it's very plausible that she would miss news coverage of it. I can't even tell you the amount of people I know who have never even heard of DM, MS, TB, and certainly not LB, who was reported on disproportionately less than TB. And my friends are all quite progressive and educated and watch the news... It's easy to miss things.

Secondly, it's not unreasonable that she misunderstood the question. When she's asked "before this trial, had you ever heard of her?" maybe she misinterprets the word "trial". Maybe she means "before this investigation" or "before charges were laid in her death" or "before all this". On the contrary, maybe she didn't misunderstand the question, and the first time she's heard of LB was in fact, this trial. If you even meet with a crown attorney AT ALL to prepare, you only do so a day before or the morning of your testimony. I know this from first hand experience testifying in a trial.

And lastly, I'm just reluctant to call her a liar at all. You may all have your opinions about her, she may come across as uneducated, naive, young, aloof, etc. but liar just doesn't strike me. She has no real reason to lie about this. If she knew Laura; had met her or heard of her, she would have just said so. It doesn't implement her in LB's disappearance or murder in any way. And she's admitted to far worse things already. It's so incredibly plausible that their paths never crossed.

 

[brightii]

I agree, completely- and I'll give further reasoning why.

When MM gave her statement to police after MS was originally arrested and charged, LB wasn't even on their radar. Only TB. She was likely only questioned about her knowledge of a truck theft and a murder relating to it. This could have likely been her only statement to police. Later on, as the investigation opened up to LB's disappearance, it's very plausible that she would miss news coverage of it. I can't even tell you the amount of people I know who have never even heard of DM, MS, TB, and certainly not LB, who was reported on disproportionately less than TB. And my friends are all quite progressive and educated and watch the news... It's easy to miss things.

Secondly, it's not unreasonable that she misunderstood the question. When she's asked "before this trial, had you ever heard of her?" maybe she misinterprets the word "trial". Maybe she means "before this investigation" or "before charges were laid in her death" or "before all this". On the contrary, maybe she didn't misunderstand the question, and the first time she's heard of LB was in fact, this trial. If you even meet with a crown attorney AT ALL to prepare, you only do so a day before or the morning of your testimony. I know this from first hand experience testifying in a trial.

And lastly, I'm just reluctant to call her a liar at all. You may all have your opinions about her, she may come across as uneducated, naive, young, aloof, etc. but liar just doesn't strike me. She has no real reason to lie about this. If she knew Laura; had met her or heard of her, she would have just said so. It doesn't implement her in LB's disappearance or murder in any way. And she's admitted to far worse things already. It's so incredibly plausible that their paths never crossed.

bbm

Re: 1st bolded section. There is a valid distinction to make between the level of interest in these murder cases by the general public and the kind of interest a person associated with either of the accused would be expected to have.

Re: 2nd bolded section: Whether or not MM has any reason to lie is a matter of opinion and something in my opinion that is at this point unknowable. MM could indeed have reason to lie and to fear implicating herself, IMO. It strikes me as much more than odd that MM would state that she had never even heard of LB before this trial and thus it causes to me question her credibility as a witness. IMO that is a fair assessment based on what I perceive as incredulous odds that MM had never heard of LB. I would have found it more believable for MM to have stated that although she had heard of her she had never met her.

All MOO.

 

[Woodland]

I don't know if the Crown instructed MM to say no to the question because of the TB trial, but I cannot imagine that they would, IMO. It would have been enough to ask if she had ever met LB rather than follow up with the question if MM had ever heard of her, IMO.

I found the infamous press conference dated June 4th, 2013 by TPS:

[video=youtube;hwLgv3YhsTM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwLgv3YhsTM[/video]

I find it near impossible to imagine that MM and the others would not have known about LB's disappearance at that time since it was mere weeks after charges were laid against DM and MS.

All MOO.

Found this as painful to watch now as 4 Jun 2013. Paraphrasing Carbone's words -

.28 - a missing persons report was generated on 14 Jul 2012 for LB and an investigation commenced.

22 Div Criminal Investigation Bureau (TPS) interviewed several witnesses and attempted to track LB's movements prior and up to 3 Jul 2012.

That investigation was thorough and employed all of the traditional methods used in any missing persons case.

Carbone then jumps to weekend of 10 May 2013 when DM was arrested - that is when TPS became aware of several phone records belonging to LB.

A long pause then, TPS now conducting a comprehensive review.

3:28 - Carbone talks about the same 22 Div going to Maplegate on 29 Nov 2012 and found a deceased WM. Now (4 Jun 2013) they are conducting a thorough review.

The press were having none of the obvious disconnect in 'investigations' in 2012 and 2013 during question period later - however Carbone maintains 22 Div did not have phone records for LB between 14 Jul 2012 and May or early June 2013. He doesn't say why not.

Bottom line imo - Carbone is saying if you disappear in Toronto, TPS cannot obtain your phone records in order to look for you or who had contact with you - even if they are handed to TPS.

In Hamilton it's a different story - they can get right on Rogers/Bell and track a phone within hours, if not sooner.

Pathetic. Imo.

 

[Woodland]

Slightly concerned what the jury will think about the lack of LE involvement between the time LB went missing and the time a homicide investigation began and when charges were laid.

Imo the Crown owes it to LB's family, SL and the community at large to admit that TPS ignored/shelved any info that LB suddenly dropped off the grid.

 

[winter2017]

brightii, I agree with what you said. It would be believable she did not meet her, but knew about her I think she did. MM knew about her and he was around MM all the time and I don't believe he did not discuss Laura. Also about the rap, I am sure MM asked MS about the rap, it was a weird rap and almost 99.9% she asked for the lyrics.
she was playing dumb. She told the truth about what she wanted and lied about what she wanted to.
If she would have told the full truth it might be a big help to convict MS.
It makes me wonder why she still wants to protect him. she knows he is a murderer so why not tell the whole and let him be convicted of another murder if he deserves it.
I think for some sick reason she is still protecting him. Which to me shows she has not learned much from her involvement in these heinous crimes, and it makes me think my thoughts about her have always been right.
I seriously doubt and there is always a small chance she would let what happened to change her but looks to me like it has not.

 

[brightii]

Slightly concerned what the jury will think about the lack of LE involvement between the time LB went missing and the time a homicide investigation began and when charges were laid.

Imo the Crown owes it to LB's family, SL and the community at large to admit that TPS ignored/shelved any info that LB suddenly dropped off the grid.

Woodland, I agree. It's heartbreaking to think, (and for me not hard to presume) that if DM and MS had not been charged in TB's murder, that LB's disappearance may well have never been investigated further by TPS. Same of course goes for DM's poor Dad, IMO.

It's all so very sad.

All MOO.

 

[Errrr]

Ha...I believe you're absolutely right Fionn. When they text k to each other it means okay. In the previous text MS typed "kkk my " so DM typed the acronym for "are you a klansman" because of the triple k in MS's text. As a joke. Of course MS didn't get it and responded back with the acronym and a question mark. DM appears to have just ignored that and moved on to a different topic in his next text rather than explain it to MS.

MOO

Rap whorshipping racists??

 

[Woodland]

Woodland, I agree. It's heartbreaking to think, (and for me not hard to presume) that if DM and MS had not been charged in TB's murder, that LB's disappearance may well have never been investigated further by TPS. Same of course goes for DM's poor Dad, IMO.

It's all so very sad.

All MOO.

To go one step further though, if TPS had investigated LB's disappearance by questioning DM it would have alerted DM he was on their radar and he would not have murdered WM (allegedly) and TB. Jmo.

Should have mentioned in my post #153 that Carbone does admit DM was never approached by TPS in regards to LB's disappearance - yet maintained they did all they could.

 

[Georgeo]

They are all lying to some degree. Telling only enough truth to keep themselves from getting arrested in all this. SS, MM, AM. If AM testifies, he will not spill anything BAM ... it will be minor in nature and just enough to ensure he stays out of prison. These people have zero moral compass.

 

[Just4TB]

I feel that AM, if he was open and truthful, could be the one remaining link to tie MS more closely to the actual M1. Note that MS and AM were in contact after DM was arrested, cohorts in removal of drugs, and "the other thing" (gun(s)). AM historically used the handle "StealthMissions1" in various online presences, which he has in some cases renamed since the TB trial. DM promised he could be part of "next level" missions, if he so chose. Note that it was after LB was murdered, that the Bobcat mission was participated in.

There are a few other people besides AM who have not yet testified, who could tightly link DM to LB, but perhaps not link MS to the actual M1 of LB. They likely will not not be called to testify, as IMO crown has enough on DM already. See one such example below...

IMO, the totality of the circumstantial evidence, primarily the digital evidence, is likely enough to get convictions for both DM and MS. But I am hoping that a few more pieces fall this coming week to implicate MS tighter to the actual killing and planning.

[FONT=&amp]A former acquaintance of Millard's, who says she had attended almost two dozen parties at his home in the Toronto suburb of Etobicoke, told CBC News that Millard and Noudga were dating.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"But [Millard] and Laura [Babcock] were just fooling around," she said. "He kept Laura around and gave her drugs."[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]The source asked CBC not to use her name because she said she was "terrified" of Millard. She described many of his parties as fuelled by cocaine and the drug MDMA and recalled several times when large brawls broke out.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"It's disturbing," she said. "I've been alone in a house with him."[/FONT]

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/...a-death-faces-2-more-murder-charges-1.2605741