Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

[andreww]

We do not know that she was shot.

I don't think so either, but the crown seems to be steering the story in that direction.

 

[JuneBug67]

Seems like a lot of people here give MM a pass because she's a cute young girl. Nobody gives SS or AM the same credit, because they both claim to have changed and both testified. But we all know that they didn't tell us everything. I see MM in the same light. I have no doubt what she has said might be at least partially true, its what she isn't saying that bothers me. We know from Smich's text to Millard that she was at Maple Gate on July 3rd, and as she was taking pics with the iPad on the 4th its reasonable to assume that she was there during the murder. The fact that the crown did not even broach the subject of the 3rd tells me that whatever she said about that day was not only not helpful to the prosecution, but was likely not believable. I find it very hard to believe that a shooting death could occur in a residential home without another occupant of that home at least hearing or sensing something had happened. Same thing with the burning of the body, If Smich was going to confine her to the car, why bring her at all?

Let me ask all of you how you can be certain that MM didn't see LBs dead body at Maple Gate, and how you can be certain she didn't help with the disposal of the body? People are curious by nature. You hear what sounds like a gunshot from upstairs, you go up and see what happened. Your boyfriend tells you they are testing an incinerator, you ask "why do I have to wait in the car?". Her entire story makes little to no sense if you think about how a normal person would react if put in her situation.

-As mentioned, no proof this was a shooting death
-If DM did this alone and quietly as has to be strongly considered given text evidence, there would be no reason for her to remember July 3 whatsoever.
-We have evidence that MS said that MM could be made to wait away from the incinerator action, and that's what MM says ultimately happened
-We have evidence that MM was kicked out of the garage before Smich acknowledged his rap was a true story. Why would that be necessary if she was an accomplice or already knew?
-Obeying your degenerate boyfriend's orders to leave, come, sit, stay, block your ears is a completely credible dynamic in a relationship like this with a **** wannabe like Smich. I don't question it at all.

 

[JuneBug67]

I don't think so either, but the crown seems to be steering the story in that direction.

They just throw the sinister stuff out there and let the jury draw their own conclusions. Like two juries have been invited to believe the incinerator was purchased for each respective victim. I'm waiting for it in the CM trial next, until DM figured out he would need a body. Really, it is the one victim for which it might actually make sense. He could expect a return of control of millions on that $15,000 dollar investment.

 

[andreww]

-As mentioned, no proof this was a shooting death
-If DM did this alone and quietly as has to be strongly considered given text evidence, there would be no reason for her to remember July 3 whatsoever.
-We have evidence that MS said that MM could be made to wait away from the incinerator action, and that's what MM says ultimately happened
-We have evidence that MM was kicked out of the garage before Smich acknowledged his rap was a true story. Why would that be necessary if she was an accomplice or already knew?
-Obeying your degenerate boyfriend's orders to leave, come, sit, stay, block your ears is a completely credible dynamic in a relationship like this with a **** wannabe like Smich. I don't question it at all.

Maybe, maybe not. But she can say whatever she wants to can't she. Not like Millard is going to say "do you remember helping lift the body in to the incinerator?" is he? Hey, she might be telling the truth, but to me she is a proven liar. She will lie to police, she will lie to a jury. The crown doesn't care, they got what they needed out of her.

 

[Tilly23]

<snip>
-Obeying your degenerate boyfriend's orders to leave, come, sit, stay, block your ears is a completely credible dynamic in a relationship like this with a **** wannabe like Smich. I don't question it at all.

I think MM was not comfortable with the whole incineration scene and she did speak up at the time. She testified that she wanted to go home but MS threatened her that he would take her back to her mother's house.

[video=twitter;931562165189963778]https://twitter.com/HefCHCHNews/status/931562165189963778[/video]

MOO

 

[andreww]

They just throw the sinister stuff out there and let the jury draw their own conclusions. Like two juries have been invited to believe the incinerator was purchased for each respective victim. I'm waiting for it in the CM trial next, until DM figured out he would need a body. Really, it is the one victim for which it might actually make sense. He could expect a return of control of millions on that $15,000 dollar investment.

The whole separate crimes thing is a little absurd if you ask me. If somebody has killed multiple people, wouldn't it be helpful for the jury to know that? They have already been convicted of M1 for acting as a team in the murder of TB. In this case the evidence of them acting together is a little more subtle. Why shouldn't they be aware that these two guys are monsters? The law is an a$$.

 

[JuneBug67]

I think MM was not comfortable with the whole incineration scene and she did speak up at the time. She testified that she wanted to go home but MS threatened her that he would take her back to her mother's house.

[video=twitter;931562165189963778]https://twitter.com/HefCHCHNews/status/931562165189963778[/video]

MOO

Could be...I had the impression she just wanted to leave because it was late and she was tired?

 

[Fionn]

Seems like a lot of people here give MM a pass because she's a cute young girl. Nobody gives SS or AM the same credit, because they both claim to have changed and both testified. But we all know that they didn't tell us everything. I see MM in the same light. I have no doubt what she has said might be at least partially true, its what she isn't saying that bothers me. We know from Smich's text to Millard that she was at Maple Gate on July 3rd, and as she was taking pics with the iPad on the 4th its reasonable to assume that she was there during the murder. The fact that the crown did not even broach the subject of the 3rd tells me that whatever she said about that day was not only not helpful to the prosecution, but was likely not believable. I find it very hard to believe that a shooting death could occur in a residential home without another occupant of that home at least hearing or sensing something had happened. Same thing with the burning of the body, If Smich was going to confine her to the car, why bring her at all?

Let me ask all of you how you can be certain that MM didn't see LBs dead body at Maple Gate, and how you can be certain she didn't help with the disposal of the body? People are curious by nature. You hear what sounds like a gunshot from upstairs, you go up and see what happened. Your boyfriend tells you they are testing an incinerator, you ask "why do I have to wait in the car?". Her entire story makes little to no sense if you think about how a normal person would react if put in her situation.

I’m not sure where you are getting that. I don’t discredit AM and SS at all and I have no special insight into their mindset.
I do know that people like DM choose the people they surround themselves with very carefully and he probably sought out people who were damaged, morally ambiguous or both. I, also, believe that his worlds were fairly segregated. I can’t say with any certainty what AM or SS know or don’t know. I can speculate, though, that they were groomed to be his ‘lackies’. Maybe SS made more $$$ working for DM then he would any where else so he justified overlooking the evidence of car theft that he was privy to. Once in, it’s not so easy to walk away. Not sure what the bait with AM was. It’s a long drive from car theft to murder for most people and I don’t think anyone believes that someone they know would be capable of that. We certainly know what MS had been given and promised for his loyalty and support.

As for MM, I don’t think what you or I consider normal applies in the case of a person caught up in a dysfunctional relationship. Being told to strip to support them or being asked to leave a room while others talked would be demeaning enough to make a lot of people leave a relationship but she stayed. Was she evil or just
completely broken? I’m not seeing support for a cute girl but rather empathy for a young women who appears to have been caught up in an abusive relationship.

I am not trying to be argumentative in the least Andreww and all of my comments are made with nothing but respect for your point of view. I greatly enjoy your posts, just seeing things a little differently. Certainly gives you a small taste of what it would be like to be on a jury.

 

[DeaconBrodie]

The whole separate crimes thing is a little absurd if you ask me. If somebody has killed multiple people, wouldn't it be helpful for the jury to know that? They have already been convicted of M1 for acting as a team in the murder of TB. In this case the evidence of them acting together is a little more subtle. Why shouldn't they be aware that these two guys are monsters? The law is an a$$.

The danger would be too great that a jury would convict just because since they have already been convicted of one serious crime, they must have done this one as well.

The Crown could have sought to introduce similar fact evidence in order to show that the accuseds had acted in a similar fashion at a different time but apparently they chose not to do so, or the judge determined that it was not admissible.

The law has developed over centuries and as much as it may frustrate us at times, it is designed to ensure a fair trial for the accused who faces off alone against the full weight of the state which potentially has unlimited resources at its disposal.

"It is better that ten guilty men escape, than that one innocent suffer."-Blackstone formulation

 

[gremlingrrl]

I don't think so either, but the crown seems to be steering the story in that direction.

Hmm... my sense was that the Crown were trying to stay away from that ie away from making it a clear and specific assertion. The gun that was purchased could have been used to threaten, terrify or otherwise coerce her to go places or do things without reaching or crying out for help. My impression is that the Crown has presented the incriminating evidence about the urgency to get a gun (or two) but without any physical proof, they are keeping some distance from flat-out asserting that her cause of death was by gun shot. One can speculate many things from what we've seen so far, but for the Crown to confidently establish a gun shot as the cause of death is a real stretch, and IMO not one that they wish to pursue, as it will potentially (or, likely) compromise the quality and reliability (and abililty to corroborate) so much of the other evidence coming into the full picture. There are many things that suggest a gun may have been involved, but nothing that can definitively prove that she was shot. IMO the Crown is dancing around that one, and it would be a questionable move if they were to conclusively assign that as cause of death. (And, science. They can't prove that her cause of death was a gunshot.)

 

[Oreck]

I respectfully disagree with that statement. I believe that the way one assesses the credibility of a person hinges on how one views that person. If you see her as manipulative and self interested any testimony that she gives will echo untruthfully. If you see her as a young women bound up in an unhealthy relationship and lifestyle you can accept that time and distance has provided her with some clarity.
I don’t put a lot of stock in her wanting to marry MS because, I think, at that point in time she believed (or chose to believe) that MS was in innocent and it was DM who had murdered Tim Bosma.
While we see him as damaged, abusive and without conscience she was unable to. At that time she had ,also, not seen any of the evidence against him.
That being said, all of this is only my opinion, of course, and I completely understand why she is such a polarizing figure.
It is very sad, to me, to think of what passed for love in her life and I hope that she has learned from the past and has been able to change as a result but the reality is I’ll never truly know the answer to that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't agree.
MM is a street-smart girl. She wouldn't say anything in this trial that would intimidate her.
She just wants this over and done.
If she was left out of the loop Mark would have said "I love you. Don't worry".
Not, "Don't tell them anything! Don't tell them anything!"

 

[Nakasaka]

I am curious to find out what everybody thinks...

Are there enough evidences at this point to conclude the following:
1. LB is no longer alive?
2. DM was planning the killing
3. MS was aware re DM plan and actively participated

and also...apologies for being too graphic.....

If we believe LB died at Maple Gate - how technically her body was transported from the house to the farm?
- body was wrapped in the tarp at the house and transported to the farm?
- body was transported to the farm unwrapped and wrapped in the tarp at the farm?

It's just that I am having very hard time to envision this 'transportation episode' given that in a hot and wet climates the body will start smelling within hours....

Thank you everybody!

 

[Errrr]

I don't think so either, but the crown seems to be steering the story in that direction.

I think direction the crown is steering the story to is that murdering someone was the intent. How it went down is speculation but their intentions look pretty clear so far.

 

[Errrr]

-As mentioned, no proof this was a shooting death
-If DM did this alone and quietly as has to be strongly considered given text evidence, there would be no reason for her to remember July 3 whatsoever.
-We have evidence that MS said that MM could be made to wait away from the incinerator action, and that's what MM says ultimately happened
-We have evidence that MM was kicked out of the garage before Smich acknowledged his rap was a true story. Why would that be necessary if she was an accomplice or already knew?
-Obeying your degenerate boyfriend's orders to leave, come, sit, stay, block your ears is a completely credible dynamic in a relationship like this with a **** wannabe like Smich. I don't question it at all.

Plus there is no evidence to suggest this girl was a member of the mission circle that caused so many others to lie. She doesn't appear to be conniving except where it puts pot in her way. Keep quiet, get pot. She has no ambitions for rich boyfriends, only pot, pot, pot.

 

[Seastrand]

Wrt the credibility of MM

IMO her testimony at the TB trial to the effect that DM and MS were celebrating the morning after they killed TB is what got MS convicted of M1. If she had followed his admonition to "not tell them anything" she would have omitted this crucial bit of information. Instead, she told the truth.

 

[Stumper]

The whole separate crimes thing is a little absurd if you ask me. If somebody has killed multiple people, wouldn't it be helpful for the jury to know that? They have already been convicted of M1 for acting as a team in the murder of TB. In this case the evidence of them acting together is a little more subtle. Why shouldn't they be aware that these two guys are monsters? The law is an a$$.

I think the danger is that it would so badly prejudice the jury that a false conviction would be quite likely. Having killed before doesn’t necessarily mean you killed this time. It is important for the evidence to speak for itself to the jury. Police departments and crown attorneys both have tremendous social pressures to quickly and efficiently solve cases

Imagine a situation like Paul Bernardo and Karla Holmoka, they could have probably been convicted of near every Rape and missing person over a span of years if if their previous convictions were allowed as evidence. To bad for them.. I agree. But the result would be that other dangerous criminals would go unconvicted and remain free to prey upon other innocent victims

 

[Nov2017]

It’s at Queen and University. On University (east side) about a block north of Queen. Enter there, you’ll be security checked, then walk down the hall to the escalator. At the second floor there is a second security check, that’s where you line up.

Only the press can use phones and laptops.

I’d be there as early as possible. Before 8:00?

Thanks andreww.

Posted as a reminder to myself - 361 University Avenue, Courtroom 2-7, with a time of 9:45 but be there before 8.


http://www.ontariocourtdates.ca/doc...028029167151075219121036176164049244179140129

 

[JuneBug67]

I am curious to find out what everybody thinks...

Are there enough evidences at this point to conclude the following:
1. LB is no longer alive?
2. DM was planning the killing
3. MS was aware re DM plan and actively participated

and also...apologies for being too graphic.....

If we believe LB died at Maple Gate - how technically her body was transported from the house to the farm?
- body was wrapped in the tarp at the house and transported to the farm?
- body was transported to the farm unwrapped and wrapped in the tarp at the farm?

It's just that I am having very hard time to envision this 'transportation episode' given that in a hot and wet climates the body will start smelling within hours....

Thank you everybody!

Thanks for the challenging questions.

1. Yes
2. Planning violence/crimes with a risk of violence/killing - not necessarily proof of planning the specific killing of LB for me, though a reasonable jury could find so on the evidence
3. MS aware of nefarious purpose of incinerator, actively participated in search for it, scant evidence he participated in a plan to kill LB specifically, but totally knew he was burning a human on the 23rd

Extremely hard to figure the timeline. There are things I'm not clear on. Do we know for sure he was at Maple Gate all evening and all night? Do we know for sure he went to the hangar first on the 4th? I have wondered if it is possible that Laura was already gone by the time he went on his "back in an hour" mission and he hid her body somewhere then, went to the hangar for a tarp the next day and then transported her from her hiding place to the farm. Or, he had a dead body in the house all night, which would be a good reason not to sleep. Or he didn't kill her until the morning when he "rolled his first spliff". Or he killed her by accident - overdose or something - or in a fit of something or other, and then just scrambled to deal with it. It would make more sense to do your tarping and transporting under cover of darkness, if you could. Who knows. It's all so terribly dark, unfathomable, and tragic.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Seems like a lot of people here give MM a pass because she's a cute young girl. Nobody gives SS or AM the same credit, because they both claim to have changed and both testified. But we all know that they didn't tell us everything. I see MM in the same light. I have no doubt what she has said might be at least partially true, its what she isn't saying that bothers me. We know from Smich's text to Millard that she was at Maple Gate on July 3rd, and as she was taking pics with the iPad on the 4th its reasonable to assume that she was there during the murder. The fact that the crown did not even broach the subject of the 3rd tells me that whatever she said about that day was not only not helpful to the prosecution, but was likely not believable. I find it very hard to believe that a shooting death could occur in a residential home without another occupant of that home at least hearing or sensing something had happened. Same thing with the burning of the body, If Smich was going to confine her to the car, why bring her at all?

Let me ask all of you how you can be certain that MM didn't see LBs dead body at Maple Gate, and how you can be certain she didn't help with the disposal of the body? People are curious by nature. You hear what sounds like a gunshot from upstairs, you go up and see what happened. Your boyfriend tells you they are testing an incinerator, you ask "why do I have to wait in the car?". Her entire story makes little to no sense if you think about how a normal person would react if put in her situation.

I have never seen MM outside of pictures so that doesn't impact me any. I also don't think AM or SS were involved or knew about the murders. They all minimized their roles in thefts etc, but personally I don't feel anyone other than DM or MS knew about the murders.

We also have MS and DM texting about her not coming and then MS saying she'll wait in the car. So there is some backup to that.

 

[JuneBug67]

Thanks andreww.

Posted as a reminder to myself - 361 University Avenue, Courtroom 2-7, with a time of 9:45 but be there before 8.


http://www.ontariocourtdates.ca/doc...028029167151075219121036176164049244179140129

Hope it all works out.