Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

[bakingirl]

I have been thinking about the prior convictions not being disclosed in this trial....

If the Bosma convictions were disclosed to the Babcock jury, the jury would likely find DM and MS guilty. But, what if DM and MS then successfully appealed their Bosma convictions? The whole Babcock outcome would be affected because of the evidence.

 

[banting]

I am curious to find out what everybody thinks...

Are there enough evidences at this point to conclude the following:
1. LB is no longer alive?
2. DM was planning the killing
3. MS was aware re DM plan and actively participated

and also...apologies for being too graphic.....

If we believe LB died at Maple Gate - how technically her body was transported from the house to the farm?
- body was wrapped in the tarp at the house and transported to the farm?
- body was transported to the farm unwrapped and wrapped in the tarp at the farm?

It's just that I am having very hard time to envision this 'transportation episode' given that in a hot and wet climates the body will start smelling within hours....

Thank you everybody!

This has been bothering me too so now that you have raised it I finally decided to reregister having long since lost my login details and add some thoughts:
If we assume that DM was the sole perpetrator, LB was killed by gunshot, it happened in DM's bedroom at Maple Gate and it took place during the night of July 3/4, then I have a hard time seeing how DM on his own could have done everything necessary to get the body to the farm.
Firstly, as stated a few times no-one seems to have heard (including neighbours) anything. Next where was the blood - remember how much there was in TB's truck. Then he had to get the body outside somewhere, again without anyone noticing. If the mattress was soaked in blood how did he remove it on his own from his room - wasn't it king size? He then had to wrap the body in the tarp, which would not be easy as you'd have to spread the tarp out fully then roll it with the body to the other side. Finally at some point he would have to load the mattress and the body into a vehicle and probably have to clean up the mess he would have left behind.
And then again which vehicle was he using? That week the Yukon was out of action and he seemed to be using an Olds. My recollection is that the Olds was a convertible and so not really suitable for the purpose. Then there is the reference to the Dodge Caravan, which might just be able to accommodate the mattress. (Btw, have we ever seen pics of either of these vehicles?)
I don't know where this all takes me.
It did cross my mind that DM was the person who was taking Laura on vacation (she thought) and maybe he lured her (alive) to the hangar, on the pretext that he would fly her personally. This would make all of the above tasks easier to conceal - might even explain the plane pic. I can't say I really believe this but who knows?

 

[Stumper]

Yes please. opcorn:

For MS I imagine it would go something like this:

Bored low self esteem drug addicted teen with no father figure in his life and already brewing dark tendency’s gets thrill of very cool, older, far wealthier male who takes an interest in his life:

Thrill being a nobody drug dealer as opposed to just a no body, thrill having gone to school with a “real gansta/rapper” in HS, thrill making friends and chilling with a cool millionaire who seems to take a legit interest in you. Thrill being pulled into a lifestyle you could never have dreamed off. Thrill of being the badass gansta friend of the millionaire the one who isn’t afraid to go next level. The thrill of having an actual girlfriend thanks to the confidence and social proof you now have. Thrill of being the go to guy for small crimes, the thrill of acting out your darkest dreams in a YouTube video with a borderline sucessful rapper. The thrill of finding out your best friend and male role model shares some of your dark fantasies and the two of you bonding even deeper which satisfies a deep need within. the thrill of being legit on the street as an aspiring rapper, thrill of being the guy with contact to hook the boss up with “tools”. The thrill of having a patron to help make real dreams you never dared to dream off before, the thrill of being on the edge of success in the streets and in the studio. Thrill of being chosen as bosses only trusted confident for the very highest level of possible crime. Thrill of being one of the few to cross that dark line. Thrill of being a Legit Gansta rapper and keeping it real.. “**** was all skin and bones..”

And of course it didn’t stop there, but the progression can be seen imo

 

[JuneBug67]

I think the idea for incinerating a human body was hatched after the Vegas trip with CN. DM returned in early May 2012 and then started talking to SS about building the homemade incinerator in texts on May 16. Was it specifically intended to be for getting rid of LB? Maybe - but possibly it was part of a grander plan to kill people - to be able to commit a "perfect crime" where there would be no body as evidence. I think both DM and MS might have been excited in a "world domination" with evil kind of way by the very idea of it. And once the idea of using it was there, they could not let it go. The homemade "garbage incinerator" was a bust, but the plan evolved into the research and purchase of the Eliminator - a serious and real piece of machinery capable of fulfilling their twisted dreams.

Now incinerating a victim became pretty much a practical reality to them and it became a possible option.

You know that expression "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail."? Maybe "to a psychopath with an incinerator, any weak and vulnerable human looks like a possible victim"?

Maybe even "to a psychopath with an incinerator that just cleared customs and is about to be delivered, that weak and vulnerable human that keeps throwing herself at him looks amazingly like an easy target"?

All MOO.

Great post - the last sentence in particular resonates.

What if you're hurting her while you **** her, as she invited. And then you just don't stop.

 

[Georgeo]

This has been bothering me too so now that you have raised it I finally decided to reregister having long since lost my login details and add some thoughts:
If we assume that DM was the sole perpetrator, LB was killed by gunshot, it happened in DM's bedroom at Maple Gate and it took place during the night of July 3/4, then I have a hard time seeing how DM on his own could have done everything necessary to get the body to the farm.
Firstly, as stated a few times no-one seems to have heard (including neighbours) anything. Next where was the blood - remember how much there was in TB's truck. Then he had to get the body outside somewhere, again without anyone noticing. If the mattress was soaked in blood how did he remove it on his own from his room - wasn't it king size? He then had to wrap the body in the tarp, which would not be easy as you'd have to spread the tarp out fully then roll it with the body to the other side. Finally at some point he would have to load the mattress and the body into a vehicle and probably have to clean up the mess he would have left behind.
And then again which vehicle was he using? That week the Yukon was out of action and he seemed to be using an Olds. My recollection is that the Olds was a convertible and so not really suitable for the purpose. Then there is the reference to the Dodge Caravan, which might just be able to accommodate the mattress. (Btw, have we ever seen pics of either of these vehicles?)
I don't know where this all takes me.
It did cross my mind that DM was the person who was taking Laura on vacation (she thought) and maybe he lured her (alive) to the hangar, on the pretext that he would fly her personally. This would make all of the above tasks easier to conceal - might even explain the plane pic. I can't say I really believe this but who knows?

taking LB to hangar alive sounds plausible. She trusted him. No mess at the house. No one at hangar to hear any noise and any mess much easier hidden or cleaned up.

 

[Georgeo]

Phone pings could have been staged that way intentionally to mislead away from actual events. Who knows? Nothing else fits perfectly either.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

taking LB to hangar alive sounds plausible. She trusted him. No mess at the house. No one at hangar to hear any noise and any mess much easier hidden or cleaned up.

Or in the van?

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Its too bad we didn't get the phone ping data posted by The Mob Reporter on youtube. Would help to actually picture it.

 

[Georgeo]

Its too bad we didn't get the phone ping data posted by The Mob Reporter on youtube. Would help to actually picture it.

A lot of the tweets from this trial are missing, not reported correctly, etc. What gives? TB trial was much easier to follow tweets, and they were correct!!!

 

[Oreck]

As I read your post it occurred to me that in the picture of the rolled tarp and Pedo there was what appeared to be clear plastic with red tape that some said looked like it was on the patio doors at DM's house. What if DM rolled his spliff with the clear plastic at the house because a) LB's death was unplanned ( I don't believe so) or b) DM never though of how to contain bodily fluids.
So, LB was rolled in the clear plastic at the house, DM goes to the hanger and gets a blue tarp, then off to the barn to stash the body and there it is wrapped better in the blue tarp for storage :gaah: and put in the steel barrels that fit over each other. The clear wrap is removed as lets face it would be easy to see what is inside unlike the blue tarp.

Just a thought.
What would happen if you stored a body in a barrel of full kerosene. and then just burned the kerosen?
Just a thought.

 

[banting]

Not sure if this has been posted before - the souvenir pic from the Medieval Times party. Only 3 faces visible, (the lady at the far left looks familiar).

article12757899

 

[Notanotherusername]

I came across the lot of them at Sobeys in Etobicoke once. I distinctly remember the pink mohawk and actually complimenting him on it. Later I was behind Smitch in line (noticed he had Say10 embroidered on a hat and remember thinking how stupid and unoriginal that was), around the same there was a seperate say10 tag in Oakville at the Kerr underpass near where my Dad lives, which is around the corner from Meneses' Speers road apt.

The strange lives of people you cross fleetingly throughout the day....

 

[canadiangirl]

I came across the lot of them at Sobeys in Etobicoke once. I distinctly remember the pink mohawk and actually complimenting him on it. Later I was behind Smitch in line (noticed he had Say10 embroidered on a hat and remember thinking how stupid and unoriginal that was), around the same there was a seperate say10 tag in Oakville at the Kerr underpass near where my Dad lives, which is around the corner from Meneses' Speers road apt.

The strange lives of people you cross fleetingly throughout the day....

Sobeys Etobicoke. Kipling Queensway mall?

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[musicaljoke]

taking LB to hangar alive sounds plausible. She trusted him. No mess at the house. No one at hangar to hear any noise and any mess much easier hidden or cleaned up.

If there was no mess at the house, how does the urgent special delivery mattress fit in?

 

[Oreck]

taking LB to hangar alive sounds plausible. She trusted him. No mess at the house. No one at hangar to hear any noise and any mess much easier hidden or cleaned up.

Why not just take her to the farm?

 

[Just4TB]

I do think it's absolutely possible that this was 2nd degree murder. Hell, I still think that for Tim. Like in that trial, there is evidence that argues against pre-planning. Little to no evidence in texts that anything was going down that day, the probable connection to a damaged or soiled mattress, the wait for an operational incinerator. The mattress (if related) and the delay are to me the equivalent of the blown out window in the RAM, the torn out seats and the blood evidence in the truck. That CAN'T have been the plan.

I understand the M1 charge(s), as I do see evidence of planning in both the TB and LB murders.

It likely was not part of the plan... However, the fact that DM and MS are a pair of incompetents who did not have a good plan, or did not execute their plan well, does not negate the evidence of planning, IMO. If the murder was M2, (for example, hypothetically, an unplanned killing during a rage event), then the evidence of planning from the text evidence below, would have to be overlooked as being multiple coincidences. I cannot overlook that evidence as being coincidental.

Primarily, the evidence of planning is against DM, derived from the digital evidence, eg,

"I fancy myself something of an undercover doctor. I think with the right treatment, these herpes can be gotten rid of," Millard wrote in a message to Noudga. "I will remove her from our lives," Millard wrote in another message.

Not as concrete evidence of planning exists against MS, but... MS does appear to be actively involved in the "next level" missions planning... which could be interpreted as murder planning, especially the "ruthless" comment.

Other messages between the two describing Smich's money troubles were also shown in court, earlier in the day. "How ruthless are you willing to be to make $$? I have some ideas, but it's next level stuff," read one text sent from Millard's phone in March 2012 to Smich. "We'll talk about this weekend. I know you need income," Millard continued. "I gotta do something. Or else I'm screwed," was the response.

Green text sourced from
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/laura-babcock-trial-wednesday-1.4391641

 

[huntergerrard]

This has been bothering me too so now that you have raised it I finally decided to reregister having long since lost my login details and add some thoughts:
If we assume that DM was the sole perpetrator, LB was killed by gunshot, it happened in DM's bedroom at Maple Gate and it took place during the night of July 3/4, then I have a hard time seeing how DM on his own could have done everything necessary to get the body to the farm.
Firstly, as stated a few times no-one seems to have heard (including neighbours) anything. Next where was the blood - remember how much there was in TB's truck. Then he had to get the body outside somewhere, again without anyone noticing. If the mattress was soaked in blood how did he remove it on his own from his room - wasn't it king size? He then had to wrap the body in the tarp, which would not be easy as you'd have to spread the tarp out fully then roll it with the body to the other side. Finally at some point he would have to load the mattress and the body into a vehicle and probably have to clean up the mess he would have left behind.
And then again which vehicle was he using? That week the Yukon was out of action and he seemed to be using an Olds. My recollection is that the Olds was a convertible and so not really suitable for the purpose. Then there is the reference to the Dodge Caravan, which might just be able to accommodate the mattress. (Btw, have we ever seen pics of either of these vehicles?)
I don't know where this all takes me.
It did cross my mind that DM was the person who was taking Laura on vacation (she thought) and maybe he lured her (alive) to the hangar, on the pretext that he would fly her personally. This would make all of the above tasks easier to conceal - might even explain the plane pic. I can't say I really believe this but who knows?

BBM This reminds me of a picture of DM that we saw early on, sorry I can't find it now, where he was standing beside a plane with a red bag near his foot. I dismissed the picture because it wasn't the red "clamshell" suitcase he went on and on about. However, now that I know what LB's bag looked like, I wonder if it was hers?

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Slightly concerned what the jury will think about the lack of LE involvement between the time LB went missing and the time a homicide investigation began and when charges were laid.

Imo the Crown owes it to LB's family, SL and the community at large to admit that TPS ignored/shelved any info that LB suddenly dropped off the grid.

I couldn’t agree with you more, Woodland. TPS had Laura’s cell records given to them by Shawn Lerner and/or her parents. Had they done a thorough investigation at that moment, as they should have because of all that Shawn explained to them, Tim Bosma would still be here. Just devastating that TPS doesn’t care to do the exemplary work that Hamilton Police does.

This infuriates and deeply saddens me. TPS and the (non)-investigating officer(s) need to be held accountable, not only for their lack of diligence in Laura’s case, but also in WM’s death.


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[MrsThreadgoode]

Maybe a woman doesn’t want to be found by an ex boyfriend. That’s the point.


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I respectfully disagree. All of Laura’s habits changed drastically too. She was always, always using social media, texting, and phoning. Then suddenly ALL of that activity stopped, and her destroyed cellphone was no longer pinging. These changes were drastically out of the ordinary for Laura.

Shawn and Laura had an amicable relationship as evidenced by all he did to help her, so the police had no reason to believe he was some sort of threat to her.

The police didn’t pay enough attention to what was being told to them by Shawn and Laura’s parents.

All of the latter was thoroughly explained to the police. At the very least, they should have had an interview with DM. That they didn’t do that is the height of egregious dereliction of duty. They knew via cell records that all of Laura’s last calls were to Dellen.

We well know about all the evidence that was readily available on DMs and MS devices. The police could have clued in very quickly ... had they done their job and taken the first step.

No excuses are valid ones in this case.

They need to be held accountable. End of story.


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[MrsThreadgoode]

The whole separate crimes thing is a little absurd if you ask me. If somebody has killed multiple people, wouldn't it be helpful for the jury to know that? They have already been convicted of M1 for acting as a team in the murder of TB. In this case the evidence of them acting together is a little more subtle. Why shouldn't they be aware that these two guys are monsters? The law is an a$$.

I find it difficult to imagine that there are very many jurors in that panel who do not know about Tim Bosma and MS/DM convictions. I know they are not allowed to take that into consideration during their deliberations, but it will be in their minds.


******** Sorry, andrewww, I replied to your comment by mistake. Please ignore. ********

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