GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #2

[Curious Me]

I feel indifferent and cold about these two young people. I still think what happened to Sheila is beyond my worst nightmare.

HM is a lost cause, IMO.
She had opportunities most people don't have.
HM had second chances......counting......at least 87 second chances, and still she caused her mother's death.
TS made a decision to stick with her. I don't know why but he was, at the very least, an accomplice.

The baby deserves a first chance. I hope somehow the baby is whisked away immediately and raised by very loving parents.

It's JMO, but no way do I think HM deserves any more chances around a little baby.

 

[FormerOakParker]

...or Heather may have antisocial personality disorder:
Antisocial Personality Disorder

People with antisocial personality disorder:

do not obey rules...check
show no regard for the feelings of others...check
can be aggressive and violent...double check
are at risk for alcohol and drug abuse...check
are often in trouble with the law...check

 

[Kamille]

...or Heather may have antisocial personality disorder:
Antisocial Personality Disorder

People with antisocial personality disorder:

do not obey rules...check
show no regard for the feelings of others...check
can be aggressive and violent...double check
are at risk for alcohol and drug abuse...check
are often in trouble with the law...check

That one seems to fit. Here is the actual criteria from the DSM IV and revised DSM 5

Antisocial Personality Disorder

DSM-IV Criteria

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing.

General Criteria for a Personality Disorder
DSM-5 Criteria - Revised June 2011

The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose antisocial personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Ego-centrism; self-esteem derived from personal gain, power, or pleasure.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting based on personal gratification; absence of prosocial internal standards associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior.
AND
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Lack of concern for feelings, needs, or suffering of others; lack of remorse after hurting or mistreating another.
b. Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate relationships, as exploitation is a primary means of relating to others, including by deceit and coercion; use of dominance or intimidation to control others

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

 

[Kamille]

Just to re-iterate however that a personality disorder is not a legitimate defense for murder. Or any other illegal behaviour. It might be a mitigating factor for a life or death sentence in the US but likely won't mean anything to the Indonesian justice system. And that's if she even has one or just manipulated a therapist and her mother into believing she did so she could have an "excuse" for her mother to keep forgiving her.

MOO

 

[otto]

Whatever she has, I'm a firm believer that people are not born with those behavioral issues. I believe that some people might have a predisposition for that type of behavior, but I think that socialization during early childhood development is where it all goes wrong.

 

[Kamille]

Whatever she has, I'm a firm believer that people are not born with those behavioral issues. I believe that some people might have a predisposition for that type of behavior, but I think that socialization during early childhood development is where it all goes wrong.

Well if there is a genetic predisposition in someone for a PD, lack of parental guidance to enforce acceptable societal behaviours, combined with the trauma of losing a parent at an early age can certainly help to trigger it I would think.

MOO

 

[FormerOakParker]

That one seems to fit. Here is the actual criteria from the DSM IV and revised DSM 5

Antisocial Personality Disorder

DSM-IV Criteria

A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following: having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing.

General Criteria for a Personality Disorder
DSM-5 Criteria - Revised June 2011

The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose antisocial personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:
A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b):
a. Identity: Ego-centrism; self-esteem derived from personal gain, power, or pleasure.
b. Self-direction: Goal-setting based on personal gratification; absence of prosocial internal standards associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior.
AND
2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
a. Empathy: Lack of concern for feelings, needs, or suffering of others; lack of remorse after hurting or mistreating another.
b. Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate relationships, as exploitation is a primary means of relating to others, including by deceit and coercion; use of dominance or intimidation to control others

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

Kamille,
This fits to a tee!
Haunted by #7: Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing.
Still can't quite get over HM's reactions to her mother's death, how SM died at most likely HM's hands , how SM's naked body was stuffed into a suitcase and abandoned into a hopefully-soon-to-be- exiting cab, attempting to flee and laughing at reporter questions. There is no way ANY normal human being can ever be indifferent here, but somehow HM was. She must have been rationalizing/disassociating herself, figuring out a way to re-direct such horrific actions. Look out TS!!!

 

[Paulette]

Geez...HM seems to fit all the personality disorders, except NPD. I strongly suspect my mom had NPD, so I'm clued in on that one - and HM doesn't fit. Her violence escalated to murder - I'm guessing it was a planned attack on SM - probably would have happened earlier if TS wasn't held up with no passport.

 

[otto]

Well if there is a genetic predisposition in someone for a PD, lack of parental guidance to enforce acceptable societal behaviours, combined with the trauma of losing a parent at an early age can certainly help to trigger it I would think.

MOO

I don't put a lot of weight on the "losing a parent" scenario. Children lose parents through divorce every day ... and divorce isn't something of today's society either. Those children managed to pick up the pieces and grow up to be normal adults. In fact, most children in that situation realize that they have to carry a bigger load because of the loss, and most step up. Additionally, Heather's father was in his late 70s and in poor health when he passed away, so it wasn't exactly unexpected. There was every opportunity to transition Heather to the fact that he may not survive her childhood.

I get the impression that she was spoiled rotten at an early age, that she learned to suck up and manipulate when it was to her advantage to do so (probably how she related to her father), and that she was violent when she couldn't do exactly as she wanted (how she related to her mother). She has probably tried all her tricks in the Bali jail, and is now deviously trying to come up with a new tactic that will get her what she wants. Nothing will work, thankfully. Hopefully she will take some time to reflect on what she could have done to have a better life ... but that probably won't happen for a few more years. At this time, I suspect she's still trying to figure out how to get away with murder.

 

[FormerOakParker]

Geez...HM seems to fit all the personality disorders, except NPD. I strongly suspect my mom had NPD, so I'm clued in on that one - and HM doesn't fit. Her violence escalated to murder - I'm guessing it was a planned attack on SM - probably would have happened earlier if TS wasn't held up with no passport.

I might be comparing Heather with my ex, whom we suspected had NPD, but then we got confused about his DX after threats/actions of violence following divorce papers. At different points of our marriage, he demonstrated different personality disorders...sometimes a hotbed of them all...Glad I got help about what folks are now calling "betrayal blindness" and got out and safe. Too bad SM didn't recognise the danger she was in w/HM. She just didn't/couldn't see that her own child would ever actually really hate or harm her. Who would?

 

[WhitegateGirl]

Yes, I agree 100% about it being antisocial personality disorder. I worked for several years doing writing therapy with in-patients in a hospital psychiatric lockdown unit, and ever since I began following this case here at WS, I've thought that the criteria for APD fit HM to a T. And as others have said, a personality disorder doesn't qualify anyone for an insanity defense--not as long as the perpetrator knows right from wrong. It's a relief to read the conversation here because it really opens up this baffling case, it's so informative. Just really wanted to say thanks for all the thought, reading, and research that go into your posts.

 

[newone]

Yes, I agree 100% about it being antisocial personality disorder. I worked for several years doing writing therapy with in-patients in a hospital psychiatric lockdown unit, and ever since I began following this case here at WS, I've thought that the criteria for APD fit HM to a T. And as others have said, a personality disorder doesn't qualify anyone for an insanity defense--not as long as the perpetrator knows right from wrong. It's a relief to read the conversation here because it really opens up this baffling case, it's so informative. Just really wanted to say thanks for all the thought, reading, and research that go into your posts.

:welcome6:

great first post -- thank you

 

[WhitegateGirl]

Thanks, newone--it's great to be here in the company of such smart, friendly, and serious sleuthers. For any unsolved crime in the news, WS has been my go-to spot for a long, long time. It just took me a while to get up the nerve to post.

 

[Kamille]

Thanks, newone--it's great to be here in the company of such smart, friendly, and serious sleuthers. For any unsolved crime in the news, WS has been my go-to spot for a long, long time. It just took me a while to get up the nerve to post.

Welcome WhitegateGirl :welcome:

Glad you finally joined up. Looking forward to hearing more of your take on this crime.

 

[RR0004]

Yes, I agree 100% about it being antisocial personality disorder. I worked for several years doing writing therapy with in-patients in a hospital psychiatric lockdown unit, and ever since I began following this case here at WS, I've thought that the criteria for APD fit HM to a T. And as others have said, a personality disorder doesn't qualify anyone for an insanity defense--not as long as the perpetrator knows right from wrong. It's a relief to read the conversation here because it really opens up this baffling case, it's so informative. Just really wanted to say thanks for all the thought, reading, and research that go into your posts.

Interesting...and could a conduct disorder have been the dx?

There should also be evidence of Conduct Disorder in the individual as a child, whether or not it was ever formally diagnosed by a professional.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/antisocial-personality-disorder-symptoms/

and...from the same article:

Because personality disorders describe long-standing and enduring patterns of behavior, they are most often diagnosed in adulthood. It is uncommon for them to be diagnosed in childhood or adolescence, because a child or teen is under constant development, personality changes and maturation. According to the DSM-5, antisocial personality disorder cannot be diagnosed in people younger than 18 years old.

 

[Curious Me]

Someone mentioned this other case in Aruba. If anyone gets a chance and wants to watch the latest interview with this guy, turn on your tv now.

Robyn Gardner missing in Aruba case is on Dr. Phil now, 3:10 PDT.

Gary Giordano is being interviewed on the show to "set the records straight".

 

[Kamille]

Someone mentioned this other case in Aruba. If anyone gets a chance and wants to watch the latest interview with this guy, turn on your tv now.

Robyn Gardner missing in Aruba case is on Dr. Phil now, 3:10 PDT.

Gary Giordano is being interviewed on the show to "set the records straight".

I missed it. Was he believable?

 

[FormerOakParker]

Interesting...and could a conduct disorder have been the dx?

There should also be evidence of Conduct Disorder in the individual as a child, whether or not it was ever formally diagnosed by a professional.

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/antisocial-personality-disorder-symptoms/

Aha...this could explain why some of the police reports mentioned that Sheila wanted them "for documentation purposes only." I think she strongly suspected antisocial ...or some kind of personality disorder...and was documenting so doctors would believe her. I can speak from experience that when you live with someone with a personality disorder, and realize you're in trouble, no one believes it when you talk about 'things at home' because the disordered have a way of convincing everyone else how great they are.

 

[Kamille]

In the police report from June 23, 2011, SWM indicated that they were receiving help from this organization...

http://www.oakparktownship.org/

In the report from July 1, 2011 SWM tells the police that HM has been hospitalized twice due to __________ issues.

In the report from June 12, 2012 SWM told LE that HM was currently on probation. I believe this was due to the charges from the broken arm and a juvenile assault conviction and sentence. There was a large gap in police reports from 2/14/12 to 5/27/12 so this may be when she was in custody in a juvenile detention facility. She also stated that HM suffers from depression.

In the report from July 10, 2012 SWM stated that they both attend therapy but that HM needs more help. Representatives from Thrive have been called to the house by LE on several of the reports and on this occasion both SWM and HM agreed to contact Thrive for an appointment.

In the report from Dec 2, 2012, SWM stated that HM is currently on probation for domestic violence and was recently treated at ________ Behavioral Center for _________.


http://www.suntimes.com/csp/cms/sites/STM/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=g1dqQ49tmbJ_DRT2fvu9cYFxNwEQHtGZTBO$621pcOw4haLKKpULgjj4hMcNJivWjMpqdV2Mso4mH6beQ6T6p6cn$IfHvVpaPD23r0DuAcZaTfjnUETyN4ze2Kxdkdy8&CONTENTTYPE=application/pdf&CONTENTDISPOSITION=indonesia-CST-081914.pdf

 

[Kamille]

Also, with regards to how Heather was able to get along with her friends, there are reports in which SWM states that HM's friends were also suspected of stealing money, credit cards and other items from her. On one report, there was a call from a neighbour about people in the house while both SWM and HM were out of town. SWM had an ADT security system (one report claims that three motion detectors from inside the house were stolen at some point) and HM had the code.

So I don't think the "friends" that HM was hanging out had a problem with her "issues". Sounds like they had a few of their own.

MOO