Bones

[missy1974]

I'm questioning, but I can't get past the bones being planted while the dog was there. SA would have heard that dog barking or at least someone else on the property would have hear it and mentioned it. They checked out the lights because they thought someone was in the yard, so it would only stand to reason if the dog was barking because someone else was one the property planting the bones--the Avery's would have checked that out also. BUT--there was no in depth interview of Josh R. He was at the hunting camp and saw the fire at 4:30 pm, bones were found on his property and he also helped with the search. He is my prime suspect, if SA didn't do it. I'm off to work also..

arggggh I had typed out a response to this when I was at work, and lost it before I hit reply LOL I was so mad! LOL

The bones ~ I have never assumed that the bones were put there before the 5th, but even if they were, it's not like SA was in his trailer 24/7. I know he went to visit Jodi at least once that week, he went to an auction with Earl on the Thursday during the day, and Menards the Thursday night with Charles (this is when he saw the lights). I also am not sure that the dog was outside 24/7, there was a report, somewhere, and I can't for the life of me remember where (shhh don't tell dexter I can't find something lol), but it indicated that the dog was sometimes in the trailer.

JR... hmm.. I agree, and there are some people that have done some serious sleuthing about him and that deer camp. He is in the CASO logs more than once with no indication of why he was there. And do you remember the red on front damage of the RAV4? I know you do haha because I think you pointed it out to me LOL Well..... there just happens to be a red gate going into the quarry, that someone has photo's of! I will see if I can send them to you in private, only because I have no way to authenticate it, but thought it was interesting and forgot about it until you mentioned him in your post.

 

[ZOOL]

"Bones bones o' dem bones..."

One of the issues I have with bones being moved from place to place is that burning bones into tiny-brittle char requires temperature 1800-degrees. Keeping that in mind, the various 55-gallon burn barrels are extremely hot. Not just for several hours, but much longer due to compacted radiant heat. In order for a perpetrator to pick up said-barrel, and extract charred bones, and move them around, the concept does not seem very reasonable. Not even with asbestos gloves. After all, the interior of a burn barrel with its compacted material can hold coal-like embedded material, much like a wood burner overnight. But a wood burner does not get to 1800-degrees. Unless it is similar to a very large pot belly. And once again, moving that requires waiting until it cools a bit.

So if a body was cremated in the evening of 10/31/05, I doubt that the bones would have been available for transport until 11/2/05. Then does one sift through the compacted material, separate it, and then transport it in a smaller container or does he muscle the entire barrel into a skidsteer and make it an all-day project moving through the fields of the neighbors and dropping bones and things here and there?

Sounds like the tedious work of a ghoul with little else on his mind.

 

[dexter75]

arggggh I had typed out a response to this when I was at work, and lost it before I hit reply LOL I was so mad! LOL

The bones ~ I have never assumed that the bones were put there before the 5th, but even if they were, it's not like SA was in his trailer 24/7. I know he went to visit Jodi at least once that week, he went to an auction with Earl on the Thursday during the day, and Menards the Thursday night with Charles (this is when he saw the lights). I also am not sure that the dog was outside 24/7, there was a report, somewhere, and I can't for the life of me remember where (shhh don't tell dexter I can't find something lol), but it indicated that the dog was sometimes in the trailer.

JR... hmm.. I agree, and there are some people that have done some serious sleuthing about him and that deer camp. He is in the CASO logs more than once with no indication of why he was there. And do you remember the red on front damage of the RAV4? I know you do haha because I think you pointed it out to me LOL Well..... there just happens to be a red gate going into the quarry, that someone has photo's of! I will see if I can send them to you in private, only because I have no way to authenticate it, but thought it was interesting and forgot about it until you mentioned him in your post.

So busted! Lol! Seriously though, you are thinking just as I thought, re:SA wasn't "guarding " that property at all times.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[BigCityAccountant]

arggggh I had typed out a response to this when I was at work, and lost it before I hit reply LOL I was so mad! LOL

The bones ~ I have never assumed that the bones were put there before the 5th, but even if they were, it's not like SA was in his trailer 24/7. I know he went to visit Jodi at least once that week, he went to an auction with Earl on the Thursday during the day, and Menards the Thursday night with Charles (this is when he saw the lights). I also am not sure that the dog was outside 24/7, there was a report, somewhere, and I can't for the life of me remember where (shhh don't tell dexter I can't find something lol), but it indicated that the dog was sometimes in the trailer.

JR... hmm.. I agree, and there are some people that have done some serious sleuthing about him and that deer camp. He is in the CASO logs more than once with no indication of why he was there. And do you remember the red on front damage of the RAV4? I know you do haha because I think you pointed it out to me LOL Well..... there just happens to be a red gate going into the quarry, that someone has photo's of! I will see if I can send them to you in private, only because I have no way to authenticate it, but thought it was interesting and forgot about it until you mentioned him in your post.

<modsnip>

Ok, but...the Salvage Yard would have been open during the day-so I can't say that I can believe that someone would have planted any evidence during the day for fear of being seen by a customer or one of the Avery clan. I suspect since their operating hours were during the day that at least CA would have been there while EA and SA went to the auction. I can't imagine they would close down the Salvage Yard and risk loosing money.

Remember BoD worked nights, so he was home during the day and would have heard something. So, to me any type of planting could have only happened at night.

I can't imagine them being placed there on or after the 5th either, so to me it could have only been before. There were too many people rooming about on the 5th and afterward as evidenced by the sign-in/out sheets.

Thursday to me could be a possibility~~however, I don't know that BJ wasn't home during the evening hours. I haven't read anything (or maybe I did and don't remember) about her whereabouts after work during that week. I do remember that she got off work at 5:00 pm and she wasn't there on Monday night. Did she spend the entire week over at ST's?

I don't think the dog needed to be outside to hear people shoveling over at the fire pit. I'm thinking if Bear heard anything outside he would be barking.

I'll have to go back and look at those photos again. Yes, there was red on the RAV4, but I'm not sure it was paint...more sleuthing to do.

Ok--my lips are sealed~~I won't tell Dexter! But, you are slipping....

 

[BigCityAccountant]

"Bones bones o' dem bones..."

One of the issues I have with bones being moved from place to place is that burning bones into tiny-brittle char requires temperature 1800-degrees. Keeping that in mind, the various 55-gallon burn barrels are extremely hot. Not just for several hours, but much longer due to compacted radiant heat. In order for a perpetrator to pick up said-barrel, and extract charred bones, and move them around, the concept does not seem very reasonable. Not even with asbestos gloves. After all, the interior of a burn barrel with its compacted material can hold coal-like embedded material, much like a wood burner overnight. But a wood burner does not get to 1800-degrees. Unless it is similar to a very large pot belly. And once again, moving that requires waiting until it cools a bit.

So if a body was cremated in the evening of 10/31/05, I doubt that the bones would have been available for transport until 11/2/05. Then does one sift through the compacted material, separate it, and then transport it in a smaller container or does he muscle the entire barrel into a skidsteer and make it an all-day project moving through the fields of the neighbors and dropping bones and things here and there?

Sounds like the tedious work of a ghoul with little else on his mind.

Thanks...you bring up some really important points about the transportation of the bones.

 

[missy1974]

Oh..now the PM makes sense...LOL

Ok, but...the Salvage Yard would have been open during the day-so I can't say that I can believe that someone would have planted any evidence during the day for fear of being seen by a customer or one of the Avery clan. I suspect since their operating hours were during the day that at least CA would have been there while EA and SA went to the auction. I can't imagine they would close down the Salvage Yard and risk loosing money.

Remember BoD worked nights, so he was home during the day and would have heard something. So, to me any type of planting could have only happened at night.

I can't imagine them being placed there on or after the 5th either, so to me it could have only been before. There were too many people rooming about on the 5th and afterward as evidenced by the sign-in/out sheets.

Thursday to me could be a possibility~~however, I don't know that BJ wasn't home during the evening hours. I haven't read anything (or maybe I did and don't remember) about her whereabouts after work during that week. I do remember that she got off work at 5:00 pm and she wasn't there on Monday night. Did she spend the entire week over at ST's?

I don't think the dog needed to be outside to hear people shoveling over at the fire pit. I'm thinking if Bear heard anything outside he would be barking.

I'll have to go back and look at those photos again. Yes, there was red on the RAV4, but I'm not sure it was paint...more sleuthing to do.

Ok--my lips are sealed~~I won't tell Dexter! But, you are slipping....

I don't think it would be an easy task to figure out where everyone would have been on every day that week because we are still missing some interviews. Barb's for one, SA's mom, and a few others. Bobby insisted he was a hard sleeper, didn't even hear the phone ring when TH phoned that Monday, so I'm not sure about that either... but I agree, I doubt it would happen during daylight or business hours ;-)

Dexter already caught me *sigh*

 

[ZOOL]

Oh..now the PM makes sense...LOL

Ok, but...the Salvage Yard would have been open during the day-so I can't say that I can believe that someone would have planted any evidence during the day for fear of being seen by a customer or one of the Avery clan. I suspect since their operating hours were during the day that at least CA would have been there while EA and SA went to the auction. I can't imagine they would close down the Salvage Yard and risk loosing money.

Remember BoD worked nights, so he was home during the day and would have heard something. So, to me any type of planting could have only happened at night.

I can't imagine them being placed there on or after the 5th either, so to me it could have only been before. There were too many people rooming about on the 5th and afterward as evidenced by the sign-in/out sheets.

Thursday to me could be a possibility~~however, I don't know that BJ wasn't home during the evening hours. I haven't read anything (or maybe I did and don't remember) about her whereabouts after work during that week. I do remember that she got off work at 5:00 pm and she wasn't there on Monday night. Did she spend the entire week over at ST's?

I don't think the dog needed to be outside to hear people shoveling over at the fire pit. I'm thinking if Bear heard anything outside he would be barking.

I'll have to go back and look at those photos again. Yes, there was red on the RAV4, but I'm not sure it was paint...more sleuthing to do.

Ok--my lips are sealed~~I won't tell Dexter! But, you are slipping....

:goodpost: Excellent reasoning, BAC!

 

[OliviaD2]

I am respectfully challenging this assertion.

The DNA results did not "prove" the cremains were TH, they indicated to a "high degree of probability" that they were.

To wit: From my post in the Kratz page and to save typing.



That said, yes, the likelihood the cremains belonged to someone other than TH, is quite low... arguably, and to my mind, negligible. However, I think it is extremely important, since this is a fact based thread (as opposed to the "planted/framed" speculation thread) to avoid overstating facts, especially as they relate to DNA results.

Why? Because DNA is about probabilities, not proof positive. And fully understanding this, imho, goes beyond this case.

I have no idea now to reply to your comment.. hopefully this works. Thank you. This is about the most reasonable response I've read this far, anywhere, concerning the DNA results.

I would agree with your last sentence and not question that ID, however one issue is that the results you are discussion that did, the mtDNA results, were not admitted into evidence in court. Therefore, they should have no bearing. Sherry's STR results were inconclusive, and I'm skeptical. Do you think she could get a nuclear DNA profile from that supposedly burnt to a crisp muscle? I can't find anyone who can claim to have done this,or any report of it being done. Technically that was all there was to base the decision on. I honestly cannot say those remains were identified.

 

[OliviaD2]

The dog was a German Shepard. Here's a picture of him guarding the burn pit area. LE could not get close to that area while the dog was there -- that was testified to.

LOL.. look at sweet Bear, that is a totally submissive dog with his rounded back and tail between his legs.
That "dog" excuse was ********!

 

[OliviaD2]

A tibia bone had some tissue still attached to it and that tissue was DNA tested and came back as a match to TH.

No it didn't at all and much to complicated to go into now.......

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Welcome to our Group OliviaD2. :wagon:

 

[dexter75]

No it didn't at all and much to complicated to go into now.......

I agree
If so, I missed it and would love to see a link confirming this.&#128521;

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[Karinna]

(quote)
There is simply no evidence that bones were found during the investigation. No one documented the bones on site at any of the three locations where they were allegedly found. Not a single photo exists. No one documented the &#8220;charred material&#8221; &#8212; not a single photo is in evidence. The FBI and crime lab reports didn&#8217;t even designate the shin bone as bone. If true that no bones were found, one can only speculate about the origin of the tissue sent to the labs. Clearly there were problems identifying the remains as Teresa Halbach&#8217;s, though one wouldn&#8217;t know that from trial testimony or media reports. The defense accepted Culhane&#8217;s report as proof that Teresa&#8217;s body was found. How can it be trusted when there is a huge problem with the chain of custody? If Dr. Eisenberg shipped it directly to the FBI as stated, how did Culhane test it at all?

The fact is the remains (if there were any found to begin with) were never conclusively identified and that means the fraud in this case may be much bigger than anyone could have imagined. Hopefully at some point Avery&#8217;s attorneys will look into this matter. It is too important to overlook.
https://stopwrongfulconvictions.wor...he-dna-evidence-teresa-halbach-investigation/

 

[Karinna]

This is not surprising, as many studies have shown that DNA cannot withstand high heat exposure &#8212; such as the heat alleged to have been generated in the raging bonfire.

Recent progress of DNA analysis techniques is improving its discrimination power and sensitivity on an ongoing basis and now this technique is routinely applied to the identification of skeletal remains.74&#8211;76 DNA profiling was expected to be a useful tool for identifying severely burnt bones when morphological tests would fail because of the deformation and fragmentation. However, casework we have encountered and studies published on burnt bone DNA typing show the harsh reality of this application. As mentioned earlier, the organic matrix disappears at a comparatively early phase in the burning process, and DNA is no exception.

Several studies have reported the applicability of DNA typing to the investigation of burnt bones.28,33,36,45,52 As a pioneer of experimental study in this area, Cattaneo et al assessed the amplification of 120 bp products of the human mitochondrial DNA region V in experimentally burnt human compact bones (800°C&#8211;1,200°C, for 20 minutes) as well as in charred bones obtained from actual forensic cases.52 They found that none of these burnt specimens retained DNA that was amplifiable and concluded that DNA typing cannot be used successfully with charred bones. (source)

 

[Karinna]

(scource)

Review
Forensic investigation of burnt human remains
https://www.dovepress.com/forensic-...-remains-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-RRFMS

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Just bringing this over as a parallel. KB was found alive! (see treading threads above) Unfortunately, Charlie Carver was not. RIP Charlie. However, the parallel is how the crime scene is being handled. Coroner on site, forensic anthropologist on site. See that thread and updates for more info on how the scene is being handled.

 

[dexter75]

Just bringing this over as a parallel. KB was found alive! (see treading threads above) Unfortunately, Charlie Carver was not. RIP Charlie. However, the parallel is how the crime scene is being handled. Coroner on site, forensic anthropologist on site. See that thread and updates for more info on how the scene is being handled.

Of course!!
Like most ANY site where BONES are discovered, that is how IT SHOULD BE..
UNLESS you are Steven Avery and HUMAN BONES that have been charred beyond recognition are found on YOUR property being guarded by YOUR vicious dog after a young woman goes MISSING photographing vehicles for you... ( AGAIN ) Then..pfft..why bother with all of THAT nonsense?? IMO..

 

[BigCityAccountant]

In South Carolina, (haven't read the whole story yet) so not sure if it is Spartanburg or not~~but they found burnt and decomposing body. It will be interesting to see how SC LE handles the case versus how MSCO and CC handled TH's.

 

[dexter75]

In South Carolina, (haven't read the whole story yet) so not sure if it is Spartanburg or not~~but they found burnt and decomposing body. It will be interesting to see how SC LE handles the case versus how MSCO and CC handled TH's.

Betting right now..the two are NOT even CLOSE..re investigation & recovery efforts..sifting/trying to salvage/preserve cremains..

 

[Vincentzh]

Hi there, I was wondering Did they ever find the skull ?
I dont find any discussion about this.