Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

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  • #461
I know I'm suppose to be kicking back for March Break but just came across the Chartright website and had to post it. The huge man cave hangar that WM lost his life for, the one we saw DM use and abuse for his own sick reasons, the same one we saw DM hauling the eliminator up to and the same one that MB's finally cashed in, has now become a jewel along the tarmac at Waterloo International. Emerging out of all of this pain, greed & loss, is a viable business, not unlike the one that WM and SH dreamt of. IMHO, DM was so out of his league in the aviation industry. SH? I hope he's working there!!

http://www.chartright.com/Contact-Us/Kitchener-Waterloo
 
  • #462
Molly Hayes tweeted that Griffin (WRPS surveillance officer) arrived at the hangar at 3pm. I reckon there was some overlap between the HPS detectives' (Hamilton & Tselepakis's) visit and the WRPS surveillance team arriving on site.

After arriving at the hangar, Griffin tailed Millard until after he left the bank in Kitchener around 5:07pm. He stated that he followed Millard onto the 401, but he was relieved by HPS. Higgins of HPS took over tailing Millard at that time. Griffin then went to Millard's farm at 6:10pm and stayed there until around 2am. I find this part interesting. He must have known that HPS was tailing (and ultimately arresting) Millard, right? So the point of watching the farm was to find out if anyone else showed up.

From the sounds of the info we have, it sounds like AJ didn't get fired until the end of the day on the 10th (Friday), and this, even though the truck had already been moved to some other unknown (to him) location. Already gone was the opportunity to allow police to find the missing truck in DM's hangar where it was being prepped for disguise. So this means that AJ sat on his information once again during the entire day on Friday, even knowing for certain for a full 24+ hours that it was in fact TB's missing truck... until his own @$$ got fired, at which time he felt the need to protect his own interests, rather than doing something good for TB and society in general. I am seriously left wondering if AJ would have *ever* reported this, if DM hadn't otherwise been 'caught'. Really discouraging, after people considering him to be a 'hero'. I am left wondering what his purpose exactly was, in taking the photograph of TB's truck in DM's warehouse. A future potential blackmail option perhaps?

He (AJ) said that they both (he and DM) left the hangar at the same time after his firing. I'm not sure if outside police forces would have been privy to the timing of arrest intentions of another police force in another city, but at that point they were still without their second (and potentially third?) suspect, so it makes sense that they would keep watch on all of DM's properties until they were thoroughly searched under warrant.
 
  • #463
I know I'm suppose to be kicking back for March Break but just came across the Chartright website and had to post it. The huge man cave hangar that WM lost his life for, the one we saw DM use and abuse for his own sick reasons, the same one we saw DM hauling the eliminator up to and the same one that MB's finally cashed in, has now become a jewel along the tarmac at Waterloo International. Emerging out of all of this pain, greed & loss, is a viable business, not unlike the one that WM and SH dreamt of. IMHO, DM was so out of his league in the aviation industry. SH? I hope he's working there!!

http://www.chartright.com/Contact-Us/Kitchener-Waterloo

This case really is such a tragic story on so many levels, affecting so many people, and previously good names/reputations, isn't it? So many young men would be so grateful to have a father to care so much about his son's future prospects in life, to take a risk with the family's wealth to build something viable to give his son something meaningful to earn an honest living doing, and then on to his children after him.

Makes me wonder if WM ever actually discussed this whole plan with DM, or if he just went ahead on his own, without considering what his son's aspirations were for his life? Seems DM never had an interest in doing this in the first place. Surely there was *something* viable that the two of them could have come up with together that would have been a mutually pleasing compromise? Unless DM was so caught up in the criminal side of things that nothing else excited him except for seeing illegal activities he could get away with?

Can anyone say if Al Sharif is on the roster to testify for the Crown?
 
  • #464
This case really is such a tragic story on so many levels, affecting so many people, and previously good names/reputations, isn't it? So many young men would be so grateful to have a father to care so much about his son's future prospects in life, to take a risk with the family's wealth to build something viable to give his son something meaningful to earn an honest living doing, and then on to his children after him.

Makes me wonder if WM ever actually discussed this whole plan with DM, or if he just went ahead on his own, without considering what his son's aspirations were for his life? Seems DM never had an interest in doing this in the first place. Surely there was *something* viable that the two of them could have come up with together that would have been a mutually pleasing compromise? Unless DM was so caught up in the criminal side of things that nothing else excited him except for seeing illegal activities he could get away with?

Can anyone say if Al Sharif is on the roster to testify for the Crown?
IMO, AS wouldn't be a witness in this case- perhaps in the WM?
 
  • #465
IMO, AS wouldn't be a witness in this case- perhaps in the WM?

I don't see why not, since DM's defence counsel was making big issue out of DM's supposed interest and excitement in SH's plan for the hangar to become an FBO. I'm still not sure on the differences between an FBO and an MRO, but Sharif would surely know about DM's *lack* of interest in the MRO, which would go against being excited about an FBO, and especially since he already had the MRO all ready to go with employees and government certification. He was also aware of some of the activities that were going on in the hangar, which were preventing the ability to give tours to prospective clients, according to him. But yet we are suddenly asked to believe that DM had all of this seemingly same stuff in the works which he was VERY excited about. And the fact that he fired the employees pretty much as soon as his dad died, suggests that the vision of an MRO was only in DM's father's mind, and not DM's. MOO
 
  • #466
I don't think the airport would have been against it since that that is exactly what the new owners of the lease are doing.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/chartright-air-group-takes-over-former-millard-air-hangar-1.3019314
Just to put all of this FBO business into perspective. Aviation is a very complex industry. I hate to use DM in the same sentence as the new operator, but Chartright is an example of the multi layers of talent and excellence that are required when dealing in this high end aviation sector. DM wouldn't have even been qualified to sweep the floor at a high end FBO. Can you imagine any of the people in this video showing up in a vehicle that looked like DM's? Can you imagine DM's office space looking like this?

I sure can't, and the reality is business people who own multi million dollar aircraft sure wouldn't appreciate the likes of MS & MM slinking around their brand new 20 million dollar Lear Jet or mechanic boy SS sanding down cars beside their 50 Million dollar 737. IMHO, DM is a pathetic lazy loser who's family just happened to have a few old airplanes and enough money to guarantee WM & DM never had to excel at anything in order to live a good life.

Yes, WM may have been out of his league on the MRO but IMO that's exactly why he had put together an experienced team. IMO, the biggest mistake WM made was getting DM involved. He would have been better off giving him 5K a month to be the King of Steam in the basement at Maple Gate. "Hotel for airplanes" cracks me up. Lot's of FBO's have hangar space available for aircraft- and most multi millionaires/billionaires don't mind paying a few bucks to keep their plane inside the hangar at a swanky FBO rather than sitting out on the ramp. DM's "plane hotel"- sounds just as whacky as his pet cremation business. In the world of high end aviation- DM was a pauper. MOO

http://www.chartright.com/About/Chartright-s-Story
 
  • #467
I don't see why not, since DM's defence counsel was making big issue out of DM's supposed interest and excitement in SH's plan for the hangar to become an FBO. I'm still not sure on the differences between an FBO and an MRO, but Sharif would surely know about DM's *lack* of interest in the MRO, which would go against being excited about an FBO, and especially since he already had the MRO all ready to go with employees and government certification. He was also aware of some of the activities that were going on in the hangar, which were preventing the ability to give tours to prospective clients, according to him. But yet we are suddenly asked to believe that DM had all of this seemingly same stuff in the works which he was VERY excited about. And the fact that he fired the employees pretty much as soon as his dad died, suggests that the vision of an MRO was only in DM's father's mind, and not DM's. MOO
Here are two good articles that explain what FBO's and MRO's are. They're very different.
FBO's : http://blog.privatefly.com/what-is-a-fbo
MRO's: http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/hot-issues/mro---maintenance-repair--overhaul
 
  • #468
I think I get it now. And from what I am getting, a company could easily and quickly lose their shirts being an MRO. They would have to hire very skilled workers, likely unionized(?), and pay them while the business went through its start-up mode until it was breaking even and making a profit.

In case anyone else is interested, here is a short(er) synopsis of what services each of FBO and MRO provides:

Most FBOs offer aircraft fuel, oil, and parking, along with access to washrooms and telephones. Larger FBOs offer additional aircraft services such as hangar storage, maintenance, aircraft charter or rental, flight training, de-icing, and ground services such as towing and baggage handling.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/aviationsecurity/page-189.htm
=======

Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul providers (MROs) play an essential role in sustaining the world’s airline fleets. MRO is the blanket term for all the services relating to assuring aircraft safety and airworthiness. It is estimated that the global market is worth up to USD50 billion. MRO providers exist all around the world, with the majority of the market share focused on North America (35%), Western Europe (26%) and Asia Pacific (17%). Indeed, most of the world’s top 10 MRO providers are headquartered in these regions.

The largest providers typically offer the three main MRO capabilities: airframe, engine and component services. Engine maintenance makes up the largest proportion of the global market (35%), followed by component (22%) and airframe heavy maintenance (13%). Line maintenance accounts for just over one-fifth of the global market (22%), with modifications making up the balance. Most major providers cater only for only commercial customers with the minority offering services to government and defence clients. Maintenance accounts for approximately 10% of airlines’ costs.
MRO providers can be categorised into four groups: in-house (e.g. Qantas Engineering); independent third party (e.g. ST Aerospace); airline third party, which serve both their parent airline and other clients (e.g. Iberia Maintenance); and Original Equipment Manufacturers, or OEMs (e.g. Honeywell).

In the past, most maintenance work was conducted in-house, with a movement in the 1990s towards outsourcing the work to independent and airline third party providers, led by the emerging LCCs. These days, the majority of line maintenance is conducted in-house. Engine services continue to be dominated by OEMs with other providers holding an evenly-divided share, with component services divided in a roughly equal proportion. Airframe maintenance is mainly conducted in-house, with a negligible contribution from OEMs. Most airlines which outsource work to a third party do so to allow them to focus on their core business, commercial flying.

http://centreforaviation.com/profiles/hot-issues/mro---maintenance-repair--overhaul
 
  • #469
Seems like WM should have been the one wearing the 'ambition' tattoo.
 
  • #470
You know how sometimes you will hear or read something, and then it will kind of play with your mind? Well, that has been happening to some extent with me in regard to the conversation recently held relating to Bullard's (sp?) testimony (the neighbour near the Bosma's residence). I cannot say for certain whether (or was it Bullen?) Bullen actually said the word 'smaller' when he referred to the second vehicle. I heard his testimony, took a few notes, not my usual thorough note-taking on that day, but I just don't recall him saying 'smaller'. When I read the one tweet (and I believe there is only one that says that) which said that he said 'smaller', the first thing I thought was that he actually may have said 'similar', as opposed to 'smaller'.

Anyway.. that Yukon XL that belongs to DM, it is a LARGE vehicle. It is as large as a pickup truck. It looks like it could BE a pickup truck with a cap on it. And it is also hard to believe that in 2013, someone, anyone, wouldn't know what an SUV was. I could see if it was 2000, and someone wasn't sure what an SUV was, but not in 2013. That is kind of crazy to me. I have NO idea how the man could say that he knew it wasn't a truck and he knew it wasn't a car, but something in between. Really? That is just not how I would expect a Yukon XL to be described at all. If he did in fact say it was 'smaller', I guess I could potentially see that, because probably even though it is almost as long as TB's truck in length, it is likely lower to the ground, which would/could make it appear to be a 'smaller' vehicle. Did TB's truck have larger tires, and normally pickup trucks are higher off the ground than a Yukon, aren't they? So I guess that could explain that part. Was Bullen ever asked to identify the second vehicle and was he able to pick out the Yukon as being the one similar? I can't remember.

Now I am starting to have a few conspiracy theories running in my mind.. when I think about that description, and then combine it with how the trucks would have needed to backtrack in order to be seen going past the Supersucker camera, and then when the other vehicles were noted to have also been seen on the camera, and then the timing thing, and the discrepancies in cell tower pings, and etc. (ie one of the officers saying that TB's phone pinged at 10:56pm, even though the phone had been powered down at 10:02pm, etc). This is what a week off will do to me.
 
  • #471
Much has been made of exactly how stupid and inept DM is...

However he shows real leadership qualities: he is able to lead and to delegate, and people follow him.

He's also attended many business meetings, about the MRO, about real estate...he's apparently confident and knowledgeable.

It's not that he's truly an idiot. He just did this idiotic thing, despite all the savvy he has.

MS, OTOH, you can imagine doing stupid things, because he wasn't doing much at all before. Cleaning toilets in the hangar, spraypainting graffiti...

However it took an organized managerial mind to put together all the tools needed for this crime. I think DM was the one that collected or had everything needed to carry out the plan.

I don't actually believe that he's stupid at this point. I'd rather say "optimistic". If DM had really, really thought about what it would take to cover the tracks of his crime before he carried it out, maybe he wouldn't have done it at all. Sober second thought. But I think he fantasized about it like a movie plot, and didn't think realistically about the situation at all. He believed if he kept everything within his sphere of control (his properties, his equipment) he could go undetected. However, he set up no defences against being actually investigated, where LE breaches the wall of privacy DM built around him. He told a shallow lie about going into business with his uncle that could easily be uncovered if one cared to investigate. DM was OK as long as everyone took him at his word. He seems to have had some sheeple around that might have been willing to accept anything out of his mouth. I think this only encouraged him.
 
  • #472
Much has been made of exactly how stupid and inept DM is...

However he shows real leadership qualities: he is able to lead and to delegate, and people follow him.

He's also attended many business meetings, about the MRO, about real estate...he's apparently confident and knowledgeable.

It's not that he's truly an idiot. He just did this idiotic thing, despite all the savvy he has.

MS, OTOH, you can imagine doing stupid things, because he wasn't doing much at all before. Cleaning toilets in the hangar, spraypainting graffiti...

However it took an organized managerial mind to put together all the tools needed for this crime. I think DM was the one that collected or had everything needed to carry out the plan.

I don't actually believe that he's stupid at this point. I'd rather say "optimistic". If DM had really, really thought about what it would take to cover the tracks of his crime before he carried it out, maybe he wouldn't have done it at all. Sober second thought. But I think he fantasized about it like a movie plot, and didn't think realistically about the situation at all. He believed if he kept everything within his sphere of control (his properties, his equipment) he could go undetected. However, he set up no defences against being actually investigated, where LE breaches the wall of privacy DM built around him. He told a shallow lie about going into business with his uncle that could easily be uncovered if one cared to investigate. DM was OK as long as everyone took him at his word. He seems to have had some sheeple around that might have been willing to accept anything out of his mouth. I think this only encouraged him.

I really think that the time factor became problematic for him, as it was truly a surprise to see how fast everything started happening, and as has been mentioned so many times before.. I think that was pretty rare.. for police to have taken SB's concerns so seriously so quickly.. I swear that for most other adult men, things may not have moved anywhere near that fast. I think it was due to their perfectly clean records, and their religious leanings, and possibly also perhaps to being related to someone who worked in a police service. (I forget at this minute who that was?)

But the delegation thing and having people follow him.. I have seen that before.. the person doesn't necessarily have to have any talent in that regard, as long as he is providing 'losers' with whatever their needs happen to be, for free. I will bet money that if DM had stopped providing things to people, he would have had a mass dropout of followers. I have actually witnessed that a few times in real life. It seems to be a hard lesson to learn.

It is *really* difficult for me to imagine him behaving professionally and competently in business meetings, after seeing his body language and facial expressions in the courtroom. It makes me wonder if he was only deemed or said to have managed these things with confidence and competence, just because he had money, and he had a reputable name?

With all of the concealment efforts after the fact, it really doesn't seem like the 'murder' part of this story was planned. Obviously the truck theft part WAS planned. I have a feeling, but we are apparently only half way there at this point, that the prosecution may have more difficulty than first imagined, getting a verdict of first degree murder. MOO. I am obviously not a law expert, and it is the job of the highly paid defence lawyers to figure out if the 'confinement' aspects applies in the legal sense, in this case. I have a feeling that it does not, after doing a bit of research.

It *would* be interesting to do another poll.. now that it is half-time, on what we think the verdicts will be.
 
  • #473
<rsbm>

I will bet money that if DM had stopped providing things to people, he would have had a mass dropout of followers.

AM is still his friend on Facebook despite everything.

With all of the concealment efforts after the fact, it really doesn't seem like the 'murder' part of this story was planned.

I don't get that: they would have not have tried to conceal anything if the murder was planned? Planned or unplanned, if you have a dead body on your hands and you don't want anyone to know...

Is the jury really going to believe that the incinerator was plan B? They don't know/have been asked not to consider anything about LB.

I have a feeling, but we are apparently only half way there at this point, that the prosecution may have more difficulty than first imagined, getting a verdict of first degree murder. MOO. I am obviously not a law expert, and it is the job of the highly paid defence lawyers to figure out if the 'confinement' aspects applies in the legal sense, in this case. I have a feeling that it does not, after doing a bit of research.

I think the evidence, altogether, is overwhelming and that people have been convicted on far less. It's also heavily weighed towards DM, and I think some people are disappointed that MS isn't taking on more of the blame.
 
  • #474
<rsbm>



AM is still his friend on Facebook despite everything.



I don't get that: they would have not have tried to conceal anything if the murder was planned? Planned or unplanned, if you have a dead body on your hands and you don't want anyone to know...

Is the jury really going to believe that the incinerator was plan B? They don't know/have been asked not to consider anything about LB.



I think the evidence, altogether, is overwhelming and that people have been convicted on far less. It's also heavily weighed towards DM, and I think some people are disappointed that MS isn't taking on more of the blame.

FB friends aren't always real friends. But he could be. Not saying he doesn't have *any* real friends, but just speaking in regard to the 'sheeple'.

Yes, for sure they would have tried to conceal everything.. but... for example.. the plan was obviously to remove the VIN from the truck, and have the truck painted.. if not for the whole tattoo-being-recognized and starting the ball rolling to catch a killer, I'm not sure how much evidence there would have been in the end, if the two had received as much time as they were obviously hoping for, to clear out evidence.. forever. Such as.. there would be no sign ever again, of TB's truck, it would have simply disappeared; if the incinerator had been cleaned out perfectly.. same thing, evidence of a human inside would be gone; if the truck seats had been taken to a steel junk yard, and the whole tattoo recognition didn't happen, same thing; keep going, with what could have been done with a little more time, and what would have been left to convict on? There would be a photograph (possibly, but not if the whole thing had taken longer to become such a media event), but would it prove anything, because can't timestamps be altered, and even if there was a photo of the truck in the hangar, if there was nothing else to find, could a conviction be obtained on that? I guess so, if they didn't clean up the blood spatter inside the truck, but probably they would have cleaned that better with some more time? Not sure. All I know is.. it's too bad that AJ didn't contact CS much much sooner, and Igor is my hero. :)

And yes, I agree.. first degree convictions have been obtained on much less. moo
 
  • #475
it's too bad that AJ didn't contact CS much much sooner

In my opinion, AJ should have contacted the police as soon as he thought the truck was Tim's.
 
  • #476
I thought the interesting thing about his testimony is that he says he saw 'two young men'. Who was the other one, if it was Smich, where did he come from? I thought it was CN who was helping DM conceal the truck and other evidence that day.

I had posted a remark to "orange tarp" and "truck seats possible in it" and "the men with trailer". Then suddenly I thought of some error made by me when I recalled, it would have been CN on that special drive together with DM and not "two men". :confused: :confused: Next step was to delete my post (already answered by someone).
Now post #405 is providing the answer to our question and problem. :)
 
  • #477
(snip) .... But I think he fantasized about it like a movie plot, and didn't think realistically about the situation at all. He believed if he kept everything within his sphere of control (his properties, his equipment) he could go undetected. However, he set up no defences against being actually investigated, where LE breaches the wall of privacy DM built around him. He told a shallow lie about going into business with his uncle that could easily be uncovered if one cared to investigate. DM was OK as long as everyone took him at his word. He seems to have had some sheeple around that might have been willing to accept anything out of his mouth. I think this only encouraged him.

I agree with your post and especially the portion I quoted above .... it is as though he has lived a bit of a "fantasy life" until recently ... he has never suffered any real repercussions for anything wayward he may have done in his life .... he has never had to face "reality" the same way most of us learned our early life lessons

Even now it does not appear to have sunk in .... for all we know he still fantasizes about his next vacation.
 
  • #478
I know I'm suppose to be kicking back for March Break but just came across the Chartright website and had to post it. The huge man cave hangar that WM lost his life for, the one we saw DM use and abuse for his own sick reasons, the same one we saw DM hauling the eliminator up to and the same one that MB's finally cashed in, has now become a jewel along the tarmac at Waterloo International. Emerging out of all of this pain, greed & loss, is a viable business, not unlike the one that WM and SH dreamt of. IMHO, DM was so out of his league in the aviation industry. SH? I hope he's working there!!

http://www.chartright.com/Contact-Us/Kitchener-Waterloo

The other day I saw a picture of the Chartright hangar .... they installed a couple of large above-ground fuel tanks and fuel pumps off to the side of the main doors ..... and a bunch of sod and grass has been churned up as though they are going to do some paving or increase the size of the ramp area.

The location of the Hangar is perfect for a Helicopter MRO .... off by itself in the corner of the airport .... they dont need the taxiways or runways like a fixed wing would.
 
  • #479
  • #480
From the sounds of the info we have, it sounds like AJ didn't get fired until the end of the day on the 10th (Friday), and this, even though the truck had already been moved to some other unknown (to him) location. Already gone was the opportunity to allow police to find the missing truck in DM's hangar where it was being prepped for disguise. So this means that AJ sat on his information once again during the entire day on Friday, even knowing for certain for a full 24+ hours that it was in fact TB's missing truck... until his own @$$ got fired, at which time he felt the need to protect his own interests, rather than doing something good for TB and society in general. I am seriously left wondering if AJ would have *ever* reported this, if DM hadn't otherwise been 'caught'. Really discouraging, after people considering him to be a 'hero'. I am left wondering what his purpose exactly was, in taking the photograph of TB's truck in DM's warehouse. A future potential blackmail option perhaps?

He (AJ) said that they both (he and DM) left the hangar at the same time after his firing. I'm not sure if outside police forces would have been privy to the timing of arrest intentions of another police force in another city, but at that point they were still without their second (and potentially third?) suspect, so it makes sense that they would keep watch on all of DM's properties until they were thoroughly searched under warrant.

I agree, AJ was never going to call police, probably because like most of us he felt SS was involved in one way or another. When AJ testified that he was physically ill after confirming it was TB's truck, I feel it was because of the possible ramifications for himself, SS and his daughter more than any remorse for TB or his family.


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