Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[billandrew]

Yes, there is no basis to believe they knew about Millard before the 10th.

Given how quickly Hamilton police were acting on leads, I assume they immediately (on the 7th) sent out a request to other police services for help identifying people with the tattoo. Peel and Toronto police didn't respond with Millard's identity until the 10th (my assumption only). To me this just seems like way too long to respond, but I admit to knowing nothing about the inner workings of police services.

 

[SnooperDuper]

if they had a tail on him almost immediately then they would have had police watching him..but they didn't until the 10th..and they missed out on finding the truck in the hangar on the 8th and 9th.

Well I was talking about the 10th, when DM was surveilled - obviously there is no need to publicize the tattoo since they already had their guy in their sights.

But they did - which makes me think it was for another reason.

Letting the public know about the tattoo was not important to the investigation.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Given how quickly Hamilton police were acting on leads, I assume they immediately (on the 7th) sent out a request to other police services for help identifying people with the tattoo. Peel and Toronto police didn't respond with Millard's identity until the 10th. To me this just seems like way too long to respond, but admittedly, I know nothing about the inner workings of police services.

Do you have a link for that - that LE did not get feedback on that tattoo until the 10th?

On the 10th LE visually confirmed the tattoo on DM, then they announced it, then they arrested him.

 

[billandrew]

Do you have a link for that - that LE did not get feedback on that tattoo until the 10th?

On the 10th LE visually confirmed the tattoo on DM, then they announced it, then they arrested him.

I don't have a source. I'm just assuming if DM was identified as a person of interest any earlier than the 10th, that police would have been all over him sooner. I see no reason why they would wait in such a time-sensitive situation.

 

[ABro]

Given how quickly Hamilton police were acting on leads, I assume they immediately (on the 7th) sent out a request to other police services for help identifying people with the tattoo. Peel and Toronto police didn't respond with Millard's identity until the 10th (my assumption only). To me this just seems like way too long to respond, but I admit to knowing nothing about the inner workings of police services.

Yes, it does seem like a long time. My notes do not make clear whether Jackson sent out the request on the 7th or the 8th. He first searched the HPS database and then sent a request to other police forces.

He alerted Hamilton and Teselepakis to go to hangar on the 10th.

 

[deugirtni]

This is from Adam Carter's Live Blog as well, in regard to the Wind representative's testimony. Scrap my last post, I was forgetting that LE do not need the physical phone in order to get the info they needed:

· Feb 8 2016 2:34 PM
Next witness is Sal Iaccio, senior corporate security analyst with Wind Mobile.

· Feb 8 2016 2:36 PM
He's being qualified as an expert in the area of cell phone communications.

· Feb 8 2016 2:40 PM
Two production orders were of interest to Hamilton police: 647-303-2279 - the "Lucas Bate" phone, and the other was 289-400-4124, a Brendan Daley.

· Feb 8 2016 2:42 PM
Police contacted Iaccio looking for information on a particular number on May 7, after Bosma disappeared. They were claiming there was an "imminent threat to life" at the time.

· Feb 8 2016 2:45 PM
The court is seeing entry records as to when police contacted Iaccio looking for information.

· Feb 8 2016 2:45 PM
Police were calling him just after 2 a.m. about the Bate phone.

· Feb 8 2016 2:46 PM
That's the last number that called Bosma before he vanished.

· Feb 8 2016 2:47 PM
In most cases police are looking for GPS coordinates of the device or historical phone records, Iaccio says.

· Feb 8 2016 2:48 PM
When a cell phone is powered off, it sends a message to the network - that way the network doesn't try to send a call to a phone that isn't on, Iaccio says.

· Feb 8 2016 2:50 PM
The Bate phone had been powered off since 9:23 p.m. on May 6 2013, he says. The last tower it pinged off of 1532 Wilson Street West in Ancaster.

· Feb 8 2016 2:50 PM
Cell tower is a general guideline as to an area -- not as specific as GPS.

· Feb 8 2016 2:51 PM
If a tower is a downtown core, the radius of the tower is 1 to 1.5 kilometres. If you're somewhere rural it can be 2 to 2.5 kilometres.

· Feb 8 2016 2:53 PM
The customer name and address report on the Bate phone is Lucas Bate, at 350 Kipling Avenue in Etobicoke. It was prepaid, and activated on March 11, 2013. That location was later revealed to be a school. There was no Bate there.

· Feb 8 2016 2:53 PM
There's no credit check or any kind of verification done on a Wind Mobile prepaid phone.

· Feb 8 2016 2:55 PM
Court now seeing the invoice on the Bate phone.

· Feb 8 2016 2:57 PM
Crown asks how often "bogus" accounts are created with Wind Mobile. "For prepaid accounts, it's pretty common," Iaccio says.

· Feb 8 2016 2:59 PM
Jury has now been led out. Can't report on what's being said now.

· Feb 8 2016 3:03 PM
Now we're into the afternoon recess for 20 mins.

· Feb 8 2016 3:26 PM
The jury is now being recalled.

· Feb 8 2016 3:30 PM
Court now being shown cell records from the "Lucas Bate" phone.

· Feb 8 2016 3:33 PM
Phone records showing calls to Dennis Arujio and Omar Palmilli, who have already testified.

· Feb 8 2016 3:34 PM
Tumanenko's phone is on these records too -- as is Tim Bosma's.

· Feb 8 2016 3:37 PM
The tower address can be seen on these records too. The tower most often being used when the Bate phone contacted Palmilli is 265 Markland Drive in Etobicoke.

· Feb 8 2016 3:38 PM
That's the address of the tower - not necessarily exactly where the phone is.

· Feb 8 2016 3:39 PM
Now we're looking at calls to the Tumanenko phone.

· Feb 8 2016 3:41 PM
Now we're seeing the records of the Bate phone calling Tim Bosma before he vanished.

· Feb 8 2016 3:43 PM
Cell records show the Bate phone was pinging off a tower on Wilson Street in Ancaster the night Bosma disappeared. "The very last entry ... is to the Bosma phone on the 6th of May, 2013," Crown Craig Fraser says.

· Feb 8 2016 3:44 PM
Pillay now cross examining.

· Feb 8 2016 3:44 PM
The Bate phone was physically powered off after talking to Bosma, cell records show.

· Feb 8 2016 3:46 PM
Iaccio can't pinpoint exactly where the phone was. "It could have been 5 metres away from the tower or 2.5 kilometres away from it," he says.

· Feb 8 2016 3:47 PM
Pillay pointing out that tower coverage area isn't a concentric circle. “It could continuously change … minute by minute, second by second?” Pillay says “Yes,” Iaccio says.

· Feb 8 2016 3:48 PM
Iaccio is excused. That's it for today.

 

[Kamille]

But why wait until the 10th? TB was missing. Why wouldn't they jump all over Millard as soon as they had his name?

They did not get the information from the two "reliable police sources in Peel and Toronto" until sometime on May 10th. At the same time, Det Kavanaugh was likely already prepped and/or giving his press conference and while he knew that the perp had this tattoo at the time of the conference, he did not know that DM had been identified. He actually wasn't positively identified as having that tattoo until the afternoon when Det. Hamilton and Det. Tselepakis showed up at the hangar. He was not put on surveillance until after they left the hangar and called Det Kavanaugh. Did you indicate you have info that they left the hangar at 3:55pm? I saw that time in your timeline. I find that hard to believe because AJ would have been there then as he was fired just before 4pm. LE came "sometime after lunch" when AJ (and SS I suppose?) were at the Home Depot for an hour. Did they come right after SH had left around 2pm? Because there is no mention by him of seeing LE at the hangar. There were a lot of people in and out of that hangar on May 10th prior to 2pm and yet when LE showed up, there was only one older male gentleman there with DM, identified by him to the detectives as his accountant.

So since I assume the accountant was at the meeting, I think LE must have shown up sometime between 2pm-3pm on the 10th. I don't think they would have stayed long.

MOO

 

[deugirtni]

Well I was talking about the 10th, when DM was surveilled - obviously there is no need to publicize the tattoo since they already had their guy in their sights.

But they did - which makes me think it was for another reason.

Letting the public know about the tattoo was not important to the investigation.

It would have been important in regard to gathering whatever information they could get from whoever might have had any in regard to Millard.

 

[Kamille]

Do you have a link for that - that LE did not get feedback on that tattoo until the 10th?

On the 10th LE visually confirmed the tattoo on DM, then they announced it, then they arrested him.

On May 10, police received information from "two reliable police sources from Toronto and Peel" that a man named Dellen Millard matched the tattoo description, and police put in a request for his phone records as well.

The phone records in the early days of the investigation were obtained through "humanitarian requests" to the providers, Det. Const. John Tselepakis testified, which is done in emergency circumstances when information could be potentially life-saving.

Records showed Millard's phone pinging in similar locations to the Lucas Bate phone on the night of May 6, Jackson testified. Further investigation revealed that the Lucas Bate phone was purchased under a bogus name and address.

From there, police wanted to confirm whether Millard matched the description they had, so Tselepakis and Staff Sgt. Paul Hamilton were tasked to pay him a visit. Both detectives testified Wednesday about a visit to Millard at his hangar at the Region of Waterloo airport on May 10.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6...d-cellphone-that-led-to-ambition-tattoo-clue/

 

[billandrew]

Somewhere between the 7th and the 10th there seems to have been a hold-up in the investigation, whether it was connecting Millard's name to the tattoo or acquiring detailed records from Wind for the Bate phone.

And I find it surprising that Det. Kavanagh, on the 10th, would mistakenly say during the press conference "yesterday we got the phone records" instead of "three days ago we got the phone records." Perhaps it is normal to make mistakes, but to me he seems so specific and exact about everything else that it kinda surprises me.

 

[Kamille]

Somewhere between the 7th and the 10th there seems to have been a hold-up in the investigation, whether it was connecting Millard's name to the tattoo or acquiring detailed records from Wind for the Bate phone. And I do find it surprising that Det. Kavanagh, on the 10th, would mistakenly say during the press conference "yesterday we got the phone records" instead of "three days ago we got the phone records." Perhaps it is normal to make mistakes, but to me he seems so specific and exact about everything else that it kinda surprises me.

I think it's a case of them getting the records on the 7th, identifying other people who were contacted by the Bate phone, interviewing IT and then going over more extensive records from the production order on the 9th to confirm the info they had. Then briefing Det. Kavanaugh about what they had and then putting in a search for info about the tattoo. Not sure which would have come first, putting in a request for info on the tattoo or waiting on the production order for more extensive records before putting in the request. But it appears that as of the time of the press conference, Det. Kavanaugh did not have any info from "police sources" with DM's name. Other officers may have been getting this info at the same time as Det. Kavanaugh was giving the press conference and he was probably briefed about it as soon as it was done. Then he made the call to get detectives (suits) to go to the hangar to investigate DM and see if he had this tattoo, along with some other items known to them from the investigation, the satchel being one such item that IT had also given them info on.

MOO

 

[Prairie_dawg]

Well I was talking about the 10th, when DM was surveilled - obviously there is no need to publicize the tattoo since they already had their guy in their sights.

But they did - which makes me think it was for another reason.

Letting the public know about the tattoo was not important to the investigation.

They kill two birds with one stone. They are already surveilling DM and see if he starts acting strange and doing cover up type activities. Also they get leads from the public of all the folks that know of DM and may wish to contribute as well as potentially bringing up other possible POIs with the same tattoo.

 

[billandrew]

They did not get the information from the two "reliable police sources in Peel and Toronto" until sometime on May 10th. At the same time, Det Kavanaugh was likely already prepped and/or giving his press conference and while he knew that the perp had this tattoo at the time of the conference, he did not know that DM had been identified. He actually wasn't positively identified as having that tattoo until the afternoon when Det. Hamilton and Det. Tselepakis showed up at the hangar. He was not put on surveillance until after they left the hangar and called Det Kavanaugh. Did you indicate you have info that they left the hangar at 3:55pm? I saw that time in your timeline. I find that hard to believe because AJ would have been there then as he was fired just before 4pm. LE came "sometime after lunch" when AJ (and SS I suppose?) were at the Home Depot for an hour. Did they come right after SH had left around 2pm? Because there is no mention by him of seeing LE at the hangar. There were a lot of people in and out of that hangar on May 10th prior to 2pm and yet when LE showed up, there was only one older male gentleman there with DM, identified by him to the detectives as his accountant.

So since I assume the accountant was at the meeting, I think LE must have shown up sometime between 2pm-3pm on the 10th. I don't think they would have stayed long.

MOO

The source is actually from one of your posts!

Susan ClairmontVerified account ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
By end of visit with Millard at airport at 3:55 pm May 10, police have decided Millard is a suspect in #Bosma's disappearance.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?299926-Bosma-Murder-Trial-02-03-16-Day-3/page14

 

[redwing7225]

I have a few questions for truck experts.

1) How long does it take to remove a cap off the back of a pickup? and can it be done with two people or would they require help?

2) Is it customary for 5th wheel users to leave the hitch in the bed while a cap is on?

3) If the 5th wheel hitch has to be added after the cap has been removed, how long does that typically take?

thanks in advance

Not an expert...but, truck caps are typically made from fiberglass which is light. Takes at most, 20min to remove from the truck and 2 grown men would not need assistance. Once installed, 5th wheel attachments generally would not need to be removed therefore accessible on demand.

 

[Kamille]

The source is actually from one of your posts!

Susan ClairmontVerified account ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
By end of visit with Millard at airport at 3:55 pm May 10, police have decided Millard is a suspect in #Bosma's disappearance.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?299926-Bosma-Murder-Trial-02-03-16-Day-3/page14

I think that's a misinterpretation. I think it was supposed to mean that by 3:55pm, DM was officially on surveillance and considered a suspect. But I don't think that is the time that the two detectives physically left the hangar.

MOO

 

[Satchie]

Given how quickly Hamilton police were acting on leads, I assume they immediately (on the 7th) sent out a request to other police services for help identifying people with the tattoo. Peel and Toronto police didn't respond with Millard's identity until the 10th (my assumption only). To me this just seems like way too long to respond, but I admit to knowing nothing about the inner workings of police services.

I think you're right: From Feb 6 testimony:

Susan Clairmont ‏@susanclairmont
On May 10, police made emergency disclosure request to Rogers for Millard's phone records.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?300226-Bosma-Murder-Trial-02-09-16-Day-6&p=12344382#post12344382

 

[deugirtni]

The source is actually from one of your posts!

Susan ClairmontVerified account ‏@susanclairmont 1m1 minute ago
By end of visit with Millard at airport at 3:55 pm May 10, police have decided Millard is a suspect in #Bosma's disappearance.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?299926-Bosma-Murder-Trial-02-03-16-Day-3/page14

Wow, so that really suggests that AJ wasn't going to do the right thing until he knew that he was at risk of being considered a participant. Guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree in many cases.

 

[billandrew]

I think that's a misinterpretation. I think it was supposed to mean that by 3:55pm, DM was officially on surveillance and considered a suspect. But I don't think that is the time that the two detectives physically left the hangar.

MOO

Hm, yes, I can see how it might be a misinterpretation. Other officers testified that surveillance started just after 3pm. What is the significance of Tselepakis specifically stating 3:55pm? What time to do you think Hamilton and Tselepakis actually visited the hangar? I would really like the timeline to be as accurate as possible.

 

[deugirtni]

Can someone please post the link for where to find the summary of tweets from SC and MH that were on a spreadsheet by day? TIA!

 

[Satchie]

The case was handed over from the general criminal investigation branch to the homicide unit on May 8th. So they had a strong suspicion he wasn't alive. The exchange of information and change of personnel could have slowed things down, as well, homicide would proceed more in an evidence-gathering mode to build a case than trying to find a live person.

Also, it would have taken time to prepare the press release with the photos of the ambition tattoo, I suspect it was written on May 9th, but not presented until the morning of the 10th.