Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[billandrew]

I have a question about the phone records. Police were able to retrieve Bosma's phone data right away, during the early hours of May 7. At that point they would have identified the Bate phone number. However, it wasn't until May 9 that they received the Bate phone records via a Production Order.

What is the reason for the delay in getting the Bate phone records? Are the rules for obtaining phone records different for a missing person vs. suspects or persons of interest?

 

[andreww]

I have to admit that I haven't really ever heard that phraseology in relation to police. I have only ever heard that said when there are people of importance/executives present. But I just figured I wasn't in tune with all of the names that police are called.

BBM, I think you are on the right track in that these weren't uniformed police officers, but higher ranking detectives. Even plain clothed cops are pretty easy to spot I guess.

 

[andreww]

I think that the conditions of the warrant allowing LE access to private cellphone data, prevents them from revealing information that is not direct evidence of the crime. They can't publish other information, such as those texts.

I think the reason for that is that they had SH's phone. To get texts between say Millard and Smich, they would need one of those phones, and if I'm not mistaken they have neither. I don't think telecom companies will or can release the contents of text messages.

 

[andreww]

I have a question about the phone records. Police were able to retrieve Bosma's phone data right away, during the early hours of May 7. At that point they would have identified the Bate phone number. However, it wasn't until May 9 that they received the Bate phone records via a Production Order.

What is the reason for the delay in getting the Bate phone records? Are the rules for obtaining phone records different for a missing person vs. suspects or persons of interest?

I thought they were able to get the info on the Bate phone on the night of the 7th via compassionate reasons?

 

[deugirtni]

Regarding the May 10 meeting at the hangar, these details were provided during the cross-examination:

There was another meeting on May 10 about the new FBO, Sachak says, with multiple people there. There was a tour of the hangar at that time, Hussey says.
by Adam Carter March 10 at 3:49 PM

"I was showing them the facility," Hussey says.
by Adam Carter March 10 at 3:50 PM

Sachak says the people he was showing the hangar to "were impressed."
by Adam Carter March 10 at 3:50 PM

During that whole cross examination during that part, it was difficult (for me) to keep up with which meeting Sachak was exactly referring to. (Or was Sachak deliberately trying to mix them up, since his point seemed to be to show that DM had nothing to hide, with the truck out in full view, unconcealed, even though allllllll of these people were in attendance... but not enlightening the jury that he was actually talking about a meeting held on the 10th, when the truck was not even present in the hangar any more?)

There had been a meeting planned by SH, with a rep from Esso.. he had planned it to occur at 4pm on May 7th; then there was a text about the airport manager coming to a meeting as well. Then the meeting was rescheduled by DM for May 8th. The meeting took place on May 8th, but whomever it was with, it was interrupted when 'the accountant' 'showed up', at which time DM excused himself from the meeting. It was during this time that SH went and spoke directly to SS (his ex coworker) and physically saw the truck, which was on a tarp, and had spray paint cans nearby. At the time SH was unaware of the whole TB case.

Then on the 10th, there was another meeting, but this meeting included Richard from Flightline, and Peter from Bearskin Airline, and aside from DM and SH and SS, I'm not sure who else.

I'm not sure if the Esso rep and/or the airport manager were ever in attendance, or if they were, which meeting they attended (8th or 10th), or if the meeting with *those* individuals was held off site with SH only, or if it didn't end up happening at all, but that is the meeting referred to for which DM rescheduled to the 8th from the 7th, imo.

It will be helpful once we can see exhibit #104 which shows the text msgs between SH and DM. If anyone knows where to find it, please post!

 

[ABro]

I have a question about the phone records. Police were able to retrieve Bosma's phone data right away, during the early hours of May 7. At that point they would have identified the Bate phone number. However, it wasn't until May 9 that they received the Bate phone records via a Production Order.

What is the reason for the delay in getting the Bate phone records? Are the rules for obtaining phone records different for a missing person vs. suspects or persons of interest?

This is another one of those things which isn't entirely clear. I believe that the police make a distinction between a humanitarian or exigent circumstances request, which covers only a very limited period of time, and a production order, which can be for far longer time periods.

We know from the Wind witness's testimony that they had info on the Bate phone early Tuesday morning and that Greg Jackson phoned Igor Tuesday morning and went to see him Tuesday afternoon.

 

[ABro]

I am confused and curious as to why the texts between SH and DM which are referred to in testimony and evidence in court on March 10th, do NOT show up on the cellphone logs? Does anyone know why this would be? Did LE leave out a bunch of the communications, believing them not to be particularly relevant? Or were they not visible in the logs LE received from the providers?

The guy who prepared the PowerPoint said it did not include all communications. They only included what they believed was relevant.

 

[andreww]

During that whole cross examination during that part, it was difficult (for me) to keep up with which meeting Sachak was exactly referring to. (Or was Sachak deliberately trying to mix them up, since his point seemed to be to show that DM had nothing to hide, with the truck out in full view, unconcealed, even though allllllll of these people were in attendance... but not enlightening the jury that he was actually talking about a meeting held on the 10th, when the truck was not even present in the hangar any more?)

There had been a meeting planned by SH, with a rep from Esso.. he had planned it to occur at 4pm on May 7th; then there was a text about the airport manager coming to a meeting as well. Then the meeting was rescheduled by DM for May 8th. The meeting took place on May 8th, but whomever it was with, it was interrupted when 'the accountant' 'showed up', at which time DM excused himself from the meeting. It was during this time that SH went and spoke directly to SS (his ex coworker) and physically saw the truck, which was on a tarp, and had spray paint cans nearby. At the time SH was unaware of the whole TB case.

Then on the 10th, there was another meeting, but this meeting included Richard from Flightline, and Peter from Bearskin Airline, and aside from DM and SH and SS, I'm not sure who else.

I'm not sure if the Esso rep and/or the airport manager were ever in attendance, or if they were, which meeting they attended (8th or 10th), or if the meeting with *those* individuals was held off site with SH only, or if it didn't end up happening at all, but that is the meeting referred to for which DM rescheduled to the 8th from the 7th, imo.

It will be helpful once we can see exhibit #104 which shows the text msgs between SH and DM. If anyone knows where to find it, please post!

I wonder what these guys thought when they they discovered the guy they were wooing as a business partner was spending his nights stealing trucks and killing people?

 

[billandrew]

What time of day on the 10th did AJ get fired?

I haven't been able to determine that. At some point he was asked to go to Home Depot to get some supplies for the trailer they were building. Some reports suggest that SS went with him. When he got back, SS and DM had a heated discussion in the hangar office. DM then waved AJ over and told him to grab his things and go home.

The business meeting / hangar tour with Hussey ended around 2pm. AJ made no mention of this meeting taking place, so it's possible that he was fired before the meeting began, or he was out getting supplies at the time. The police arrived sometime between 3-4pm, and again, AJ made no mention of that in his testimony. However, there is a strange part of his testimony where he says, referring to the moment he got fired, "that's when I realized the police had been there." This has made me wonder whether he got fired toward the end of the day, but it had to be before 4:41pm since that's when DM left the hangar in his Yukon.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I haven't been able to determine that. At some point he was asked to go to Home Depot to get some supplies for the trailer they were building. Some reports suggest that SS went with him. When he got back, SS and DM had a heated discussion in the hangar office. DM then waved AJ over and told him to grab his things and go home.

The business meeting / hangar tour with Hussey ended around 2pm. AJ made no mention of this meeting taking place, so it's possible that he was fired before the meeting began, or he was out getting supplies at the time. The police arrived sometime between 3-4pm, and again, AJ made no mention of that in his testimony. However, there is a strange part of his testimony where he says, referring to the moment he got fired, "that's when I realized the police had been there." This has made me wonder whether he got fired toward the end of the day, say between 4-5pm.

Zuraidah Alman ‏@ZuraidahCTV Feb 4
A trailer in hanger gone too.In aft Jennings sent to Home Depot.While gone police come talk to Millard. Jennings returns,Millard fires him.

 

[deugirtni]

I think that the conditions of the warrant allowing LE access to private cellphone data, prevents them from revealing information that is not direct evidence of the crime. They can't publish other information, such as those texts.

Not saying anything about publishing the info in the texts... but there are very detailed cellphone logs submitted to the court in exhibit#37, one of which mentions a text DM made to SH on May 6th at 12:20:25am. (which is just before TB gets incincerated???? Is that an error which should read May 7th????)

From Exhibit#37:

Monday, May 6, 2013
12:20:25 AM
3355 Millard sent a text to 3409 Hussey

This exhibit#37 that I saved to my hard drive begins with this:

Ontario Provincial Police
Created by: Phil Wilkinson
Date: February 8, 2016

Forgot to mention, I cannot find this communication listed on the exhibit#37 appearing at this link which was posted by ABro:

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...AGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#slide=id.p51

 

[SnooperDuper]

By Friday, something had changed, however. The black truck was gone, the tarp was gone and the giant trailer that sat outside the hangar was also gone, Jennings said.

After lunch, he went to Home Depot to get some boards they needed for their renovation of another trailer. When he came back, Shane and Dell were in the office area, where Jennings said Dell lived.

“Dell was looking at me. Shane would look at me, turn his head. They were having a heated discussion,” he told the court.

Then Millard came over and told him to get all his stuff and go home. “That’s when I later found out that the police had been there,” Jennings testified.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/

 

[deugirtni]

I haven't been able to determine that. At some point he was asked to go to Home Depot to get some supplies for the trailer they were building. Some reports suggest that SS went with him. When he got back, SS and DM had a heated discussion in the hangar office. DM then waved AJ over and told him to grab his things and go home.

The business meeting / hangar tour with Hussey ended around 2pm. AJ made no mention of this meeting taking place, so it's possible that he was fired before the meeting began, or he was out getting supplies at the time. The police arrived sometime between 3-4pm, and again, AJ made no mention of that in his testimony. However, there is a strange part of his testimony where he says, referring to the moment he got fired, "that's when I realized the police had been there." This has made me wonder whether he got fired toward the end of the day, but it had to be before 4:41pm since that's when DM left the hangar in his Yukon.

Zuraidah Alman ‏@ZuraidahCTV Feb 4
A trailer in hanger gone too.In aft Jennings sent to Home Depot.While gone police come talk to Millard. Jennings returns,Millard fires him.

I found this from Adam Carter's Live Blog, suggesting that AJ got fired and left at the same time on May 10th, as DM left the hangar... and DM I believe, was already under surveillance by that time, if we can find the time when he left (BBM):

Adam Carter
· Feb 4 2016 12:34 PM
Millard came over at one point and told Jennings to get his stuff and go home. He was calm at the time, but was stern and said "you can go home. All your stuff. Take it and go home."

· Feb 4 2016 12:35 PM
"I was kind of in shock and relief," Jennings says.Adam Carter

· Feb 4 2016 12:36 PM
Both Millard and his son in law left. "I felt like a mouse in a trap. I didn't know if someone was going to come back and whack me -- I didn't know what was going on," Jennings says.

 

[billandrew]

This is another one of those things which isn't entirely clear. I believe that the police make a distinction between a humanitarian or exigent circumstances request, which covers only a very limited period of time, and a production order, which can be for far longer time periods.

We know from the Wind witness's testimony that they had info on the Bate phone early Tuesday morning and that Greg Jackson phoned Igor Tuesday morning and went to see him Tuesday afternoon.

I also thought it was Tuesday that they spoke with Igor, but I got confused about this while watching Det. Kavanagh's update on May 10, 2013. He states:

"Yesterday [May 9], investigators working on this case received the results of a production order for the cellular telephone of the man that contacted Mr. Bosma. From the cellular records and interviews, police have found that these two same individuals that attended Mr. Bosma's house test-drove a similar type of vehicle in the City of Toronto on May 5 in the middle of the day."

He then goes to provide Tumanenko's description of the two males, including the ambition tattoo, and states that the male has not been identified as yet. He then asks the public to contact the tip line if they have any information about the two males. Remarkably, they were able to arrest Millard later that day.

The relevant info begins at 3:30 in the video:

[video=youtube;-QQvNrsjgBk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QQvNrsjgBk[/video]

 

[ABro]

It was Tuesday they spoke to Igor.

There are a lot of details that are wrong in the press conference. For example Kavanagh says that the test drivers went to Igor's workplace when they went to his apartment building.

IMO this is absolutely normal. It's very easy to get facts wrong when things are happening all around you. The officers interviewed Igor at his work so you can see where the confusion might stem from.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I also thought it was Tuesday that they spoke with Igor, but I got confused about this while watching Det. Kavanagh's update on May 10, 2013. He states:

"Yesterday [May 9], investigators working on this case received the results of a production order for the cellular telephone of the man that contacted Mr. Bosma. From the cellular records and interviews, police have found that these two same individuals that attended Mr. Bosma's house test-drove a similar type of vehicle in the City of Toronto on May 5 in the middle of the day."

He then goes to provide Tumanenko's description of the two males, including the ambition tattoo, and states that the male has not been identified as yet. He then asks the public to contact the tip line if they have any information about the two males. Remarkably, they were able to arrest Millard later that day.

The relevant info begins at 3:30 in the video:

<rsbm>

LE was holding the cards close to their chest at this point...they delayed announcing the info that they had at this point IMO.

I would not go by what was said in press conferences because in part LE is trying to manipulate the accused into showing their cards by reacting to the information released.

LE was quite delayed in reporting the info they did have.

 

[billandrew]

It was Tuesday they spoke to Igor.

There are a lot of details that are wrong in the press conference. For example Kavanagh says that the test drivers went to Igor's workplace when they went to his apartment building.

IMO this is absolutely normal. It's very easy to get facts wrong when things are happening all around you. The officers interviewed Igor at his work so you can see where the confusion might stem from.

Edit to remove my last post. I have found this from the Wind Mobile rep's testimony:

Lisa Hepfner &#8207;@HefCHCHNews 2m2 minutes ago
Iaccio got a call at 2am on May 7, 2013, from #HamOnt police wanting info on the phone that called #TimBosma for test drive

Mark Carcasole &#8207;@MarkCarcGlobal 2m2 minutes ago
Humanitarian request. As we learned last week, an emergency situation. Police can get info without court ordered a life is in danger. #Bosma

 

[Typhoo1961]

I am not colour blind, can distinguish even slight differences in hue but for some strange reason I have said orange when seeing green and green when seeing orange on several occasions. Don't know why and I do correct myself because I can see the proper colour. Maybe the witness is colour blind and doesn't realize it, or maybe it's a mental slip up?

Or maybe the witness actually DID see an orange tarp and his eyesight is fine.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

Or maybe the witness actually DID see an orange tarp and his eyesight is fine.

Yep, and it doesn't really matter. The fact is there is no continuity on the tarp, so we will never know. DM and MS may have dropped it off, swapped it out OR was green not orange. Regardless that's not the important issue unless a later witness brings up seizure of an orange tarp or another witness. The main thing is that the U-turn occurred, a witness saw it as did a video camera, and the witness saw the accused individuals return to the hanger and carry something requiring two people to carry, and put in the back of the trailer. That something may or may not have been the seats we can never know only speculate. JMO

 

[deugirtni]

Just posting as FYI, out of interest:

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/ccr-rc/pmj-pej/p5.html

[h=1]FPT HEADS OF PROSECUTIONS COMMITTEE
REPORT OF THE WORKING GROUP ON THE PREVENTION OF MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE[/h]5. EYEWITNESS IDENTIFICATION AND TESTIMONY