Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[musicaljoke]

There's no reason why the tarp couldn't be orange: sure, an orange tarp was not found but grommets were found in both the scorched patches and in the incinerator. Obviously, some tarps got burned, and an orange one could have been one of them.

From the timeline, the orange tarp was put into the back of the black, 5th wheel trailer at 8:42 pm. Less than an hour later, DM's phone is pinging in Oakville. I can't see any evidence to suggest that the truck with the attached 5th wheel trailer went to the Ayr farm before heading to Kleinburg. My guess is that the drive from Waterloo to Kleinburg would have been at a cautious pace.

Do you think that there was time to fit in the detour? When did surveillance at the farm begin? I don't see it on the timeline, but I could have wiggle eyes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml#

 

[Stratocaster]

I think I'm stating the obvious here when I believe this case screams premeditation

- gun photos in computer archives, carefully taken not to expose faces
- DM with a vested interest to acquire a diesel engine towing truck for race transportation
- similar internet truck searches
- burner phone
- failed test drives with DM providing a different name (middle)
- parked Yukon walking distance from TB residence
- incinerator purchase in 2012, stored at farm, away from hangar employees/visitors
- SS appears to be in the know IMO, can't wait for his story

I have full faith in the crown and jury in this one, rest in peace Mr Bosma, rest in peace

 

[Abitcountry]

Here, for the record, is a link to the full PowerPoint presentation shown at trial, missing only the cover page. I'm not sure on what basis you are saying cell phone activity has since been eliminated.

Could it be that you misremembered?


https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1LUH8AIqxz_A5BaPXaGFPoyS8wM9CJAGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit

Thanks for the document...it is much easier to read than the exhibit#37 on Mob Reporter.

The first time I looked at the cell phone records, I recall noticing the burst of activity that seemed to be going on as DM & MS were headed to meet with TB.
What I recall reading was Menses and Noudga both making calls (or sending texts) not to their bf's but to the cell phones of Haggerman and Whidden. I read it more than once but when I came to review the cell phone activity some time much later, I was unable to find the same page.


I know we have all read a lot but I don't think I would imagine something so specific...to recall Noudga's phone activity when she show up so little in the rest of the exhibit.....but anything is possible.

 

[Juballee]

From the timeline, the orange tarp was put into the back of the black, 5th wheel trailer at 8:42 pm. Less than an hour later, DM's phone is pinging in Oakville. I can't see any evidence to suggest that the truck with the attached 5th wheel trailer went to the Ayr farm before heading to Kleinburg. My guess is that the drive from Waterloo to Kleinburg would have been at a cautious pace.

Do you think that there was time to fit in the detour? When did surveillance at the farm begin? I don't see it on the timeline, but I could have wiggle eyes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hb6kEtpLa8cHCVorBuy4yqfHymGvhfHeM6s8QMWGVW8/pubhtml#

I'm not sure how much faith I have in the witness who said he saw an orange tarp. Didn't he also say he saw headlights in the trailer? Unless they went through the tremendous effort of taking TB's truck out of the trailer, turning it around, and winching it back in, I believe his view, at best, would have been of the non-illuminated rear end of a black truck inside a trailer. Was it lit? I'd love to see a photo taken from the window he had his view from, to see the realistic distance and angles involved and judge for myself how much could actually been seen from there with the naked eye.

Also, just wanted to point out that orange tarps are not that common, could he have been talking about one of those orangish-red tarps that are rubberized and so heavy that they often take two people to carry?

 

[ABro]

Thanks for the document...it is much easier to read than the exhibit#37 on Mob Reporter.

The first time I looked at the cell phone records, I recall noticing the burst of activity that seemed to be going on as DM & MS were headed to meet with TB.
What I recall reading was Menses and Noudga both making calls (or sending texts) not to their bf's but to the cell phones of Haggerman and Whidden. I read it more than once but when I came to review the cell phone activity some time much later, I was unable to find the same page.


I know we have all read a lot but I don't think I would imagine something so specific...to recall Noudga's phone activity when she show up so little in the rest of the exhibit.....but anything is possible.

Please don't take this personally because it's not directed at you. But over and over again, on this thread, people keep insisting they saw things but can't find them because they have been eliminated, disappeared, removed.

As a journalist, I encounter people misremembering ALL the time. And when you show them very clearly that something isn't what they remembered, they invariably look sheepish and say they can't believe they got it wrong because they had such a clear picture of it.

This happens to me regularly too. I have a clear memory of something, but when I check it (because my job requires me to check not just insist) it turns out that I did indeed remember something wrongly. It's not at all uncommon and it may even have happened to the guy with the tarp.

None of us have perfect memories and even our so-called anchored memories are often incorrect.

At this point, you have to choose between you misremembering or an important court exhibit being inexplicably incorrect.

Again, I'm sorry if I sound snippish but there is just so much misinformation coming into this thread at a time when we have real evidence and real exhibits that can be checked and verified. It's very frustrating to see the waters being muddied.

 

[musicaljoke]

I'm not sure how much faith I have in the witness who said he saw an orange tarp. Didn't he also say he saw headlights in the trailer? Unless they went through the tremendous effort of taking TB's truck out of the trailer, turning it around, and winching it back in, I believe his view, at best, would have been of the non-illuminated rear end of a black truck inside a trailer. Was it lit? I'd love to see a photo taken from the window he had his view from, to see the realistic distance and angles involved and judge for myself how much could actually been seen from there with the naked eye.

Also, just wanted to point out that orange tarps are not that common, could he have been talking about one of those orangish-red tarps that are rubberized and so heavy that they often take two people to carry?

We know that the lighting made a wash of orange at the time the trailer was loaded, so hearing the witness say that the tarp was orange adds some credibility to the whole account in my mind. The colour of the tarp is a small detail that he may or may not have remembered accurately.

At first glance, I thought that I was seeing headlights in the photo of TB's truck in the back of the trailer. I don't doubt the witness on that point either.

Here's a picture of the back of the truck. What do you think? Could someone think they were seeing headlights?

http://www.scoopnest.com/user/AdamCarterCBC/705417871908859904

 

[Ironworker736]

We know that the lighting made a wash of orange at the time the trailer was loaded, so hearing the witness say that the tarp was orange adds some credibility to the whole account in my mind. The colour of the tarp is a small detail that he may or may not have remembered accurately.

At first glance, I thought that I was seeing headlights in the photo of TB's truck in the back of the trailer. I don't doubt the witness on that point either.

Here's a picture of the back of the truck. What do you think? Could someone think they were seeing headlights?

http://www.scoopnest.com/user/AdamCarterCBC/705417871908859904

The only reason I'd doubt this witness testimony is because of this...

He says he couldn't see inside the trailer when the doors were open.by Adam Carter 10:51 AM


"At that time I thought I seen two headlights [inside the trailer]," Alma says after reading his statement from May 14, 2013. "That's all."
by Adam Carter 10:55 AM


Which is it? He could see in or he couldn't see in?

 

[Murphys_Law]

Assuming that the tarp observed by the eyewitness is the same tarp found in the back of the trailer by LE, a simple explanation as to why the eye witness perceived it to be an orange tarp is that the witness is colour blind.

Approx 8% of men are colour blind. A specific type of red-green colour blindness called "protanopia" may confuse mid-greens with orange.

 

[cansleuther]

I'm not sure how much faith I have in the witness who said he saw an orange tarp. Didn't he also say he saw headlights in the trailer? Unless they went through the tremendous effort of taking TB's truck out of the trailer, turning it around, and winching it back in, I believe his view, at best, would have been of the non-illuminated rear end of a black truck inside a trailer. Was it lit?

<rsbm>

TB's truck may not have even had headlights at this point - slides 8 through 11 show that, when the trailer and truck were seized, the headlights had been removed and placed in the bed of the truck.

However, it looks like there are lights on the ceiling of the trailer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HcLKBpswT4aEswVnRPbTVmbjQ/view?pref=2&pli=1

 

[Abitcountry]

Please don't take this personally because it's not directed at you. But over and over again, on this thread, people keep insisting they saw things but can't find them because they have been eliminated, disappeared, removed.

As a journalist, I encounter people misremembering ALL the time. And when you show them very clearly that something isn't what they remembered, they invariably look sheepish and say they can't believe they got it wrong because they had such a clear picture of it.

This happens to me regularly too. I have a clear memory of something, but when I check it (because my job requires me to check not just insist) it turns out that I did indeed remember something wrongly. It's not at all uncommon and it may even have happened to the guy with the tarp.

None of us have perfect memories and even our so-called anchored memories are often incorrect.

At this point, you have to choose between you misremembering or an important court exhibit being inexplicably incorrect.

Again, I'm sorry if I sound snippish but there is just so much misinformation coming into this thread at a time when we have real evidence and real exhibits that can be checked and verified. It's very frustrating to see the waters being muddied.

I am in full agreement with your comments here.
I did scroll through each page of the exhibit that you sent....and you are correct there is not a single page with the information that I "recall". I did see one page where there were 3 references to Whidden...and a page that had calls/texts to or from Noudga...I think on some level I very well may have mushed the two together.
I know I had been reading a lot when the cell phone exhibit came out...and I did read it through quickly without taking time to study it---and there is barely time to go into long term memory at that rate.
No offence taken because I did pause long enough to consider the source...and if it happens to you as well then I guess I am in good company after all .
Thanks for taking the time to flesh out your response....I do appreciate it .
I found your first response to be curt but not snipping.

 

[Juballee]

Assuming that the tarp observed by the eyewitness is the same tarp found in the back of the trailer by LE, a simple explanation as to why the eye witness perceived it to be an orange tarp is that the witness is colour blind.

Approx 8% of men are colour blind. A specific type of red-green colour blindness called "protanopia" may confuse mid-greens with orange.

Colour blindness is a good guess, but might it not also affect his ability to see other colours as well? If I recall, I think he did say that the truck he saw was red.

Didn't the officer who was following the trailer say that she drove beside the tow truck for about 10 minutes, honking and trying to get his attention? I wonder if the red tarp could have fallen out then, or at least the defence can claim that if it was beneficial to them. The officer wouldn't have been looking for a tarp when she went back, just a box.

My opinion only

 

[musicaljoke]

The only reason I'd doubt this witness testimony is because of this...

He says he couldn't see inside the trailer when the doors were open.by Adam Carter 10:51 AM


"At that time I thought I seen two headlights [inside the trailer]," Alma says after reading his statement from May 14, 2013. "That's all."
by Adam Carter 10:55 AM


Which is it? He could see in or he couldn't see in?

I can't speak for him, but, perhaps he couldn't see into the trailer when the doors were open because it was all black in there. Except for what looked like headlights. I think that he's describing it like he saw it at the time, not knowing what he was looking at. He's not describing it with details he knew to be true after the fact.

 

[Juballee]

<rsbm>

TB's truck may not have even had headlights at this point - slides 8 through 11 show that, when the trailer and truck were seized, the headlights had been removed and placed in the bed of the truck.

However, it looks like there are lights on the ceiling of the trailer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2HcLKBpswT4aEswVnRPbTVmbjQ/view?pref=2&pli=1

What would be powering the lights inside the trailer? Would they have their own power source or would they only work when the trailer was hooked up to the towing vehicle, like the brake lights?

 

[Juballee]

I can't speak for him, but, perhaps he couldn't see into the trailer when the doors were open because it was all black in there. Except for what looked like headlights. I think that he's describing it like he saw it at the time, not knowing what he was looking at. He's not describing it with details he knew to be true after the fact.

But if everything was bathed in an orange or red light from the sunset, wouldn't that make the chrome look more like taillights?

 

[ABro]

The only reason I'd doubt this witness testimony is because of this...

He says he couldn't see inside the trailer when the doors were open.by Adam Carter 10:51 AM


"At that time I thought I seen two headlights [inside the trailer]," Alma says after reading his statement from May 14, 2013. "That's all."
by Adam Carter 10:55 AM


Which is it? He could see in or he couldn't see in?

The witness is an old guy who didn't remember something he said in a police statement three years ago when his memory of events would clearly have been fresher.

The jury saw him testify to seeing a U-turn the day after they saw a video showing the truck doing the exact same thing the witness described. He seemed to have been pretty darned observant all things considered.

 

[Stratocaster]

Can anyone speculate who would be involved in minor 'chopping' of TB's truck at the hangar before it was loaded into cargo trailer (Dodge ram identifying trim/front seats/lights/pressure washed on the green tarp)....I believe SS ordered a windshield removing tool and some sanding discs, I'm guessing at DM's request from Napa, being he's a licensed mechanic, I wonder if SS was there from the start of the 'chop'. Or did the 'chop' start in the early hours of May 7th with only the two accused?

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm not sure how much faith I have in the witness who said he saw an orange tarp. Didn't he also say he saw headlights in the trailer? Unless they went through the tremendous effort of taking TB's truck out of the trailer, turning it around, and winching it back in, I believe his view, at best, would have been of the non-illuminated rear end of a black truck inside a trailer. Was it lit? I'd love to see a photo taken from the window he had his view from, to see the realistic distance and angles involved and judge for myself how much could actually been seen from there with the naked eye.

Also, just wanted to point out that orange tarps are not that common, could he have been talking about one of those orangish-red tarps that are rubberized and so heavy that they often take two people to carry?

Just wanted to mention, I have one in my back yard that covers the kid's bikes and is secured with bungee cords in the winter. The neighbors use the same exact one, to cover their patio furniture in winter. No idea where they got theirs, but mine came from Canadian Tire. Standard duty orange tarp. http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/autom...e&utm_source=AskAndAnswer&utm_content=Default

 

[Gibson67]

I wonder why when the details of the cellphone activity was presented, that Spencer Hussey was not one of the texts or calls that DM received over the days of the 6th-11th. Crown never mentioned any of those texts before they presented him as a witness..unless his texts were some of the unknowns? Then again LE obviously had the records so I wonder why they never placed those texts in the powerpoint presentation.


Adam Carter
@AdamCarterCBC 3 days

Hussey says around the date of Bosma's disappearance, they were having in depth conversations via text about business operations. #TimBosma

 

[billandrew]

I wonder why when the details of the cellphone activity was presented, that Spencer Hussey was not one of the texts or calls that DM received over the days of the 6th-11th. Crown never mentioned any of those texts before they presented him as a witness..unless his texts were some of the unknowns? Then again LE obviously had the records so I wonder why they never placed those texts in the powerpoint presentation.

They didn't present all of the activity, IMO. It's a curated list to highlight points that are relevant for the Crown's case, primarily the movements and locations, but also the communications between certain people at certain times. It probably wasn't necessary to present all of the texts between DM and Hussey.

 

[matou]

Hussey's name shows up in the cell phone info. It's there. I was wondering who that was before he was on the stand. I see that name on slide 10.

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...AGTr4PrZnEc7rU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#slide=id.p28