Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #7

[deugirtni]

Interesting that Mr. V is 'leasing' from his employer the red Ram for $450/month even though he uses it for his duties in working for DM. But when DM wants to use it, or trade it for an entirely different vehicle, he just goes ahead and plans to do it, without even discussing with Mr. V. Doesn't sound like Mr. V had much control over his own 'company'.

 

[MsSherlock]

Interesting that Mr. V is 'leasing' from his employer the red Ram for $450/month even though he uses it for his duties in working for DM. But when DM wants to use it, or trade it for an entirely different vehicle, he just goes ahead and plans to do it, without even discussing with Mr. V. Doesn't sound like Mr. V had much control over his own 'company'.

IIRC, the company was DM's- it was only named after JV. DM was the owner- JV was the foreman. JV didn't know how the Co. was registered. Also, IIRC, JV bought the materials out of the money DM paid him and then he was reimbursed. IMO, that wasn't all that great for JV- a portion of the money that JV should have been able to use for living expenses had to go towards materials for the job. Borderline abusive. MOO

 

[napper505]

History lesson re: CM and WM

A couple of things and info regarding CM and WM


I recently talked to a former employee of CM's business 1980 ish. Interesting points .
1. CM very shrewd
2. Flew auto parts using DC3 and DC4's
3. Pilot's were not paid for their services. Young and upcoming pilots Paid CM to fly his aircraft in order to get hours and commercial licence's.
3. WM described as occasional pilot with Millard Air.

4. WM was pilot for Air Canada, was dismissed, He won Lawsuit against Air Canada.



The hanger was supposed to be equipped to handle a/c the size of a Boeing 737. Are there any images of the hanger other than the cars? Equipment for aero work?

Aerospace, thats what I do for a living.


oh and regarding Cell transmissions

you should have a look at this

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ware-the-police-dont-want-to-acknowledge.html

and this regarding Hacking GSM
[video=youtube;DU8hg4FTm0g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU8hg4FTm0g[/video]

 

[Stratocaster]

Scrolling through some online pictures of CN, and have seen enough of them to have familiarity with her appearance, then I see a few other pictures, of who I assume is her walking with her mother and it looks like she has gained 'plump' weight? Is this the same girl? It just doesn't look like the same 'Angelina Jolie-esk' pictures

 

[ABro]

Scrolling through some online pictures of CN, and have seen enough of them to have familiarity with her appearance, then I see a few other pictures, of who I assume is her walking with her mother and it looks like she has gained 'plump' weight? Is this the same girl? It just doesn't look like the same 'Angelina Jolie-esk' pictures

It's not CN with the red hair. That's a friend of hers who attended the bail hearing.

CN does not look anything like Angelina Jolie.

<modsnip>

 

[ABro]

oh and regarding Cell transmissions

you should have a look at this

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ware-the-police-dont-want-to-acknowledge.html

This has nothing at all to do with how standard cell phone calls and texts were tracked in the Bosma case. Nothing.

The fact is that tower pings are extremely accurate for locating phones, and if the users are with their phones, tower pings are extremely accurate for locating the users.

What is the purpose of linking articles on "Stingray" technology that may not even be used in Canada, according to the article in question?

 

[Arnie M]

.

napper505 in your post you mentioned stingrays and how police may use the technology without really admitting it.

Before there were cell phones or anonymous burner phones police (with a warrant) would tap the land-line phones of criminals and record the conversations. Of course the criminals and the underworld avoided doing business over the phone.

And if they had to make an anonymous call they simply stepped out onto the street and used a public payphone. So of course payphones outside of mafia hangouts or bars were in constant use.

What nobody realized , or even thought of , was those payphones were also bugged and conversations recorded along with video recordings of the person using the phone. Huge amounts of intelligence was gathered that way but they never told anyone and will never admit to it.

 

[Kamille]

hello everyone... ive been reading this trial and am enjoying everyone's opinions. I hate to sound like a jerk, but i have to disagree with some of the theories that have tossed around lately:

IMO Millards defense cant possibly be trying to say that JV is the real killer. For one, that would be like coming up with a defense on the fly which no competent lawyer would do. Surely Millard would have tried to deflect to JV already during his questioning and I think its likely that JV was given a cursory investigation and nothing was found to indicate he did it. IMO the defense is just trying to discredit any of JV testimony, especially if it makes it look like Millard wasn't rolling in cash. Is it possible that DM defense could get his entire testimony thrown out ie judge telling jury to ignore anything JV said because he was a hostile witness with some hatred of DM? Because to me, that is the crux of his defense - that he was rich so why the hell would he need to steal a truck when he could just buy any one he wanted. But as we are learning, he seemed to have assets but not much liquid assets to use.

IMO the fact that the 2 defense lawyers started sparring with each other when it came to where the bullet casing was found indicates that they are only trying to get their client off of the First Degree charge and will consider anything less than that a win. Let's not forget, they have only pleaded not guilty to 1st degree murder.


Also, I think the switching of the white van with the Yukon was just coincidence. There is no way DM was doing that in order to frame JV. If he really wanted to frame JV for murder why would he have done such a good job disposing of the bodies? [RIP] All the switching took place before the night of the 6th and so to believe that he was doing it to set JV up as a patsy then you also have to believe that DM was of the mind he could not pull this crime off. IMO DM is a smug narcissist, who felt himself entitled. He went into this convinced he would never be caught. I think he only mentioned possibly being set up in a moment of panic when he realized the jig was up.

Another poster [and if I could find the post I would have quoted it] wrote that they think DM defense is that he wasn't in the truck when Mr. Bosma was shot and that he felt he needed to help his friend after the fact. I have to agree with that.

I can hardly wait until CN and MM get on the stand!... those days are going to be electrifying
cheers everyone

Welcome chaines :welcome:

I agree that the defense is not trying to suggest that JV is responsible for the murder. They are only going to go after him as a liar and someone who is shifty and untrustworthy. In the two hours that they will cross him, they will expose every less than legal thing he's ever done since the day he met Dellen Millard and hammer away at everything he has said on the stand so far as being less than truthful. For no other reason than to try to destroy his credibility and have the jury throw out his testimony. Maybe even see if there is any leeway there for some reasonable doubt.

I think what is being tossed around by some posters, myself included, is that one thing seems pretty certain and that is that DM was, at the very least, planning to steal a truck. So some of the sketchy things he did prior to his first test drive with IT may have been to make things point more towards the "shifty Columbian" guy, should they have been successful in stealing IT's vehicle but there may have been some video evidence of the Yukon in the area. Especially since they would have been doing this during the day in a fairly populated area. I personally don't think he had the idea that a loaded gun and the cover of darkness was needed to complete the task until after that IT test drive was a bust, but that is just my opinion.

So when DM realized that LE may be on to the fact that TB's truck was in his hangar at some point, DM probably reverted to that original idea to throw some shade at JV, the guy who he traded the Yukon with and who had keys and access to most of his properties. Hence the text... "I think someone I work with is trying to set me up". At the time, he had no idea the kind of evidence LE were going to have on him. After discovery, I think he knows that this strategy is not going to work out so the defense can only hope for the "scared innocent dupe who really just wanted to buy a truck" strategy.

MOO

 

[RenegadeX]

Can anyone confirm if any testimony to date has confirmed that DM+AM were intending to enter the 2013 Tejate Baja 500 race, as they'd done previously? If not, if I was a lawyer, I'd have got an international warrant to check with the race officials.

2nd comment: if I was a lawyer I would have asked AJ the following question: "On a typical day inside the Millardair hangar, when yourself or SS was working on whatever you were working on, did you work in silence, or did you listen to music?". I would be fishing for a reply that indicated that the radio was typically on, but either way my next question would be if he recalls if that changed during the week of TB's disappearance.

The answers to both questions have relevance to what we've heard so far.

 

[deugirtni]

Can anyone confirm if any testimony to date has confirmed that DM+AM were intending to enter the 2013 Tejate Baja 500 race, as they'd done previously? If not, if I was a lawyer, I'd have got an international warrant to check with the race officials.

2nd comment: if I was a lawyer I would have asked AJ the following question: "On a typical day inside the Millardair hangar, when yourself or SS was working on whatever you were working on, did you work in silence, or did you listen to music?". I would be fishing for a reply that indicated that the radio was typically on, but either way my next question would be if he recalls if that changed during the week of TB's disappearance.

The answers to both questions have relevance to what we've heard so far.

The bookkeeper LWilliams (there are 2 LWs now, both of whom are Lisas, ugh!) testified, there was mention of DM and Shane going back to do a race (in Mexico).

I found the registration lists dated April 23, 2013, and then May 28, 2013, and DM isn't on either of them. It started out with one guy registered in 'Class 3', but then he withdrew, and there ended up being 2 others, one of whom was a late registrant.

In 2011, DM and AM had the # 303, and I read somewhere that you keep your number until it has been inactive for a year, at which time they have the right to reassign it to someone else, if requested. ( http://score-international.com/rulebook/vehicle-number-policy/ )

45th Annual Tecate SCORE Baja 500
May 30-June 2, 2013—Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico
Total Entries: 266 (as of 5/28/13)

CLASS 3 (3)
301 Withdrawl
307 William Fey
*300 Donald Moss

*Nuevos en la lista

http://baja-roads.blogspot.ca/2013/05/45th-annual-tecate-score-baja-500-entri.html

45th Annual Tecate SCORE Baja 500

May 30-June 2, 2013—Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico
Total Entries in the start draw: 169 (as of 4/23/13)

CLASS 3 (1)
301 Chris Wilson

http://www.race-dezert.com/home/45th-score-baja-500-drawing-results-42659.html

 

[MsSherlock]

BSBM

I recently talked to a former employee of CM's business 1980 ish. Interesting points .
1. CM very shrewd
2. Flew auto parts using DC3 and DC4's
3. Pilot's were not paid for their services. Young and upcoming pilots Paid CM to fly his aircraft in order to get hours and commercial licence's.
3. WM described as occasional pilot with Millard Air.

4. WM was pilot for Air Canada, was dismissed, He won Lawsuit against Air Canada.



The hanger was supposed to be equipped to handle a/c the size of a Boeing 737. Are there any images of the hanger other than the cars? Equipment for aero work?

In concern to pilots- IMO, CM was just doing what many other operators did with their young pilots. Even today it can be argued that young commercial pilots are exploited in the industry. Operators have long known that the pilot needs multi engine hours just as much as the operator needs the pilot to fly their multi engine planes- to build up the hours the pilot either rents a plane for 400-500 an hour or works for next to nothing. If the young pilot doesn't take the job, there's always someone behind him/her that will. It's a tough business. WM was lucky because CM had planes for him to fly to build up those hours, finally landing him a job with Air Canada. Many are not so lucky. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/nyregion/14pilot.html?_r=0

Back in November/2012, AS, the guy who was securing contracts for the new MRO, had a heated discussion with DM in concern to DM getting his junk out of the hangar so they could bring prospects thru and get some contracts in place. DM and AS met for dinner to go over things. 2 weeks later, WM was dead.

"&#8220;He was an impediment to the hangar operation&#8221; who didn&#8217;t meet his deadlines, almost never arrived at work before noon, and refused to clear his collection of cars, jeeps, hot rods, jet skis and personal airplanes from the business premises."

"Mr. Sharif responded that until the facilities, estimated to have cost some $6 million, could be toured by potential customers, no deals would be signed."

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

 

[Juballee]

BSBMIn concern to pilots- IMO, CM was just doing what many other operators did with their young pilots. Even today it can be argued that young commercial pilots are exploited in the industry. Operators have long known that the pilot needs multi engine hours just as much as the operator needs the pilot to fly their multi engine planes- to build up the hours the pilot either rents a plane for 400-500 an hour or works for next to nothing. If the young pilot doesn't take the job, there's always someone behind him/her that will. It's a tough business. WM was lucky because CM had planes for him to fly to build up those hours, finally landing him a job with Air Canada. Many are not so lucky. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/nyregion/14pilot.html?_r=0

Back in November/2012, AS, the guy who was securing contracts for the new MRO, had a heated discussion with DM in concern to DM getting his junk out of the hangar so they could bring prospects thru and get some contracts in place. DM and AS met for dinner to go over things. 2 weeks later, WM was dead.

"“He was an impediment to the hangar operation” who didn’t meet his deadlines, almost never arrived at work before noon, and refused to clear his collection of cars, jeeps, hot rods, jet skis and personal airplanes from the business premises."

"Mr. Sharif responded that until the facilities, estimated to have cost some $6 million, could be toured by potential customers, no deals would be signed."

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/m...-bosma-murder-suspect-started-to-dismantle-it

I always take AS's words with a grain of salt, as it sounds to me like he was still feeling bitter over being fired. It is possible that he was trying to mitigate the impression that he may have been fired over a lack of performance, since it was his job to bring in the contracts that Millardair needed, and as we know they had none at that time.

From what we know now, DM had lots of other places where he could have parked his toys, at least temporarily, and had ample means to move them. Should AS actually have had an appointment for someone to tour the facility, surely they would have given more than the day's notice that would have been required to move those toys.

Personally I doubt that we will be hearing from AS during this trial.

All my opinion only.

 

[MsSherlock]

I always take AS's words with a grain of salt, as it sounds to me like he was still feeling bitter over being fired. It is possible that he was trying to mitigate the impression that he may have been fired over a lack of performance, since it was his job to bring in the contracts that Millardair needed, and as we know they had none at that time.

From what we know now, DM had lots of other places where he could have parked his toys, at least temporarily, and had ample means to move them. Should AS actually have had an appointment for someone to tour the facility, surely they would have given more than the day's notice that would have been required to move those toys.

Personally I doubt that we will be hearing from AS during this trial.

All my opinion only.

IMO, AS has never appeared to be particularly bitter- maybe perplexed as to why DM wasn't being more of an assistance to his father who was building a 6 plus million dollar MRO so his lack lustre son could have a real job- but not bitter. AFAIK, there were no questions asked when the whole crew at Millardair were laid off- after all, WM had died from an "aneurysm" and I seriously doubt that any of the aviation veterans WM had hired could ever see a future working under the one and only DM. Personally, IMHO, AS is a successful business man and I've often thought that it was totally unnecessary for anyone to doubt his capabilities.

There's a definite common theme with DM- absolutely everyone is at fault, except for him. MS is a hood, JV doesn't file his taxes, SH was looking to make it big, WM wasted his money on the hangar. Then you have this bizarre LW duo. LW 1 is doing 10 hours a month making quick book entries for a company that was doing nothing and driving back and forth from Vaughn for "meetings". She sat there while DM's defence called her uneducated and ignorant of business...nice. LW 2 sat there while her professional real estate name was tweeted faster than a high speed fan, while she was telling the world about sleeping with one of her clients and getting a 10K gift in the mail from the mother of the accused. Fantastic for her that now when a client tries to find her the first 20 pages of google will be stories of DM's "real estate agent with sexual benefits". Both of the LW's fell on the knife for DM and while he's spending the rest of his life in jail, they'll be somehow trying to disassociate themselves and hopefully get back to earning a living.

AFAIK, DM didn't have any place to park his toys. Please link if you do have that info. AFAIK, they were going to build something at the farm, but that never got started. Did the Millardair shutdown hurt any of the aviation guys working for WM? Seriously doubt it. Not a fact, but I'm sure these highly skilled people are all working somewhere. DM & WM needed them. DM by all accounts is uneducated, disorganized and unskilled.

The Crown is just getting ready to put the icing on their cake. CN, MM & AM. Did CN know that DM's real estate agent did more than put up for sale signs? Why didn't he ask LW to give him a hand moving things and spare CN an accessory after the fact charge? Does AM care more about his family's name than he does about DM? Does AM want to be the one to be caught in a lie on the stand? MM? Does she want DM to be successful in putting all the blame on MS?

IMHO, these 3 witnesses will be the trifecta for the Crown.

 

[nightshift]

how true - "LW 2 sat there while her professional real estate name was tweeted faster than a high speed fan, while she was telling the world about sleeping with one of her clients and getting a 10K gift in the mail from the mother of the accused. Fantastic for her that now when a client tries to find her the first 20 pages of google will be stories of DM's "real estate agent with sexual benefits".

Googled "Lisa Widden" - first page of results 7 entries dealing with trial. nothing dealing with real estate. Pretty much kiss real estate career away

 

[matou]

Welcome nightshift! ITA with your post.

:welcome4::welcome4:

 

[SnooperDuper]

I always take AS's words with a grain of salt, as it sounds to me like he was still feeling bitter over being fired. It is possible that he was trying to mitigate the impression that he may have been fired over a lack of performance, since it was his job to bring in the contracts that Millardair needed, and as we know they had none at that time.

From what we know now, DM had lots of other places where he could have parked his toys, at least temporarily, and had ample means to move them. Should AS actually have had an appointment for someone to tour the facility, surely they would have given more than the day's notice that would have been required to move those toys.

Personally I doubt that we will be hearing from AS during this trial.

All my opinion only.

DM had 30 vehicles that he would have to find a home, according to the licence plate testimony, and we know that DM had no place to put that many things. And that's not including things without a plate like the wood chipper and the incinerator. There was a lot of junk, I'd day.

I don't think AS's testimony is relevant to this trial either - he will testify in the WM trial, IMO.

 

[billandrew]

LW 2 sat there while her professional real estate name was tweeted faster than a high speed fan, while she was telling the world about sleeping with one of her clients and getting a 10K gift in the mail from the mother of the accused. Fantastic for her that now when a client tries to find her the first 20 pages of google will be stories of DM's "real estate agent with sexual benefits". Both of the LW's fell on the knife for DM and while he's spending the rest of his life in jail, they'll be somehow trying to disassociate themselves and hopefully get back to earning a living.

RSBM. Well said, MsSherlock.

When the jury considers Lisa Whidden's testimony, they will be able to take all of her actions into account:

• Slept with her real estate client who was already in a relationship.
• Accepted a $10,000 gift immediately after DM was arrested.
• Refused to provide a police statement.
• Refused to speak to the Crown and had to be compelled to testify.
• Whined on the stand, in front of the jury and the Bosma family, about how the police treated her poorly and took her cell phone without her permission.

Whidden's actions help to prove that DM surrounded himself with people of weak character who he could easily manipulate, thus supporting the image of him as the puppet master who planned and orchestrated everything, including the murder of TB.

 

[matou]

RSBM. Well said, MsSherlock.

When the jury considers Lisa Whidden's testimony, they will be able to take all of her actions into account:

• Slept with her real estate client who was already in a relationship.
• Accepted a $10,000 gift immediately after DM was arrested.
• Refused to provide a police statement.
• Refused to speak to the Crown and had to be compelled to testify.
• Whined on the stand, in front of the jury and the Bosma family, about how the police treated her poorly and took her cell phone without her permission.

Whidden's actions help to prove that DM surrounded himself with people of weak character who he could easily manipulate, thus supporting the image of him as the puppet master who planned and orchestrated everything, including the murder of TB.

She also contacted DM (who was already in custody) to tell him that LE was at her home questioning her about him. She was ready to tell LE whatever story he would have offered her IMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

IMO, AS has never appeared to be particularly bitter- maybe perplexed as to why DM wasn't being more of an assistance to his father who was building a 6 plus million dollar MRO so his lack lustre son could have a real job- but not bitter. AFAIK, there were no questions asked when the whole crew at Millardair were laid off- after all, WM had died from an "aneurysm" and I seriously doubt that any of the aviation veterans WM had hired could ever see a future working under the one and only DM. Personally, IMHO, AS is a successful business man and I've often thought that it was totally unnecessary for anyone to doubt his capabilities.

AS was interesting because he was the first person who knew DM well that came out and threw shade on him. What's most interesting to me the the true disdain that men like AS and RB, both accomplished men, have for DM. They had both made their way in business and they showed no respect for DM at all.

Compare and contrast that with the reaction of DM's many women. They are obviously using a different scale to assess DM (perhaps net worth?)

There's a definite common theme with DM- absolutely everyone is at fault, except for him. MS is a hood, JV doesn't file his taxes, SH was looking to make it big, WM wasted his money on the hangar.

It makes it seem like DM just didn't attract the right kind of people. If everyone around you is not an upstanding citizen, what are we to believe?

Then you have this bizarre LW duo. LW 1 is doing 10 hours a month making quick book entries for a company that was doing nothing and driving back and forth from Vaughn for "meetings". She sat there while DM's defence called her uneducated and ignorant of business...nice. LW 2 sat there while her professional real estate name was tweeted faster than a high speed fan, while she was telling the world about sleeping with one of her clients and getting a 10K gift in the mail from the mother of the accused. Fantastic for her that now when a client tries to find her the first 20 pages of google will be stories of DM's "real estate agent with sexual benefits". Both of the LW's fell on the knife for DM and while he's spending the rest of his life in jail, they'll be somehow trying to disassociate themselves and hopefully get back to earning a living.

So why did these women allow themselves to be degraded in public? They wouldn't have faced this shaming if they had not stood up to defend DM.

AFAIK, DM didn't have any place to park his toys. Please link if you do have that info. AFAIK, they were going to build something at the farm, but that never got started.

30 vehicles + assorted machinery...no, DM did not have another place to put all that.

Did the Millardair shutdown hurt any of the aviation guys working for WM? Seriously doubt it. Not a fact, but I'm sure these highly skilled people are all working somewhere. DM & WM needed them. DM by all accounts is uneducated, disorganized and unskilled.

Those who are secure in their careers, like AS and RB, have felt free to criticize DM.

The Crown is just getting ready to put the icing on their cake. CN, MM & AM. Did CN know that DM's real estate agent did more than put up for sale signs? Why didn't he ask LW to give him a hand moving things and spare CN an accessory after the fact charge? Does AM care more about his family's name than he does about DM? Does AM want to be the one to be caught in a lie on the stand? MM? Does she want DM to be successful in putting all the blame on MS?

IMHO, these 3 witnesses will be the trifecta for the Crown.

Agreed. I think people's doubts about premeditation will be put to rest.

 

[mskrisc]

how true - "LW 2 sat there while her professional real estate name was tweeted faster than a high speed fan, while she was telling the world about sleeping with one of her clients and getting a 10K gift in the mail from the mother of the accused. Fantastic for her that now when a client tries to find her the first 20 pages of google will be stories of DM's "real estate agent with sexual benefits".

Googled "Lisa Widden" - first page of results 7 entries dealing with trial. nothing dealing with real estate. Pretty much kiss real estate career away

Also, no longer on the website as an agent for the Remax location she was with at the time.