CA CA - Barbara Thomas, 69, from Bullhead City AZ, disappeared in Mojave desert, 12 July 2019 #9

[Nikynoo]

What are you talking about?

it was in response to @GordianKnot post. If you use the timeline of the VI's sister, then the 2pm photo cannot exist. So, what is it? The VI's sisters timeline is correct, or does the 2pm photo, (which the VI has confirmed that LE stated exists (at 2pm)) exist. It the information that the photo exists, then the VI's recollection is incorrect. To be fair, she does say that her memory isn't great and I imagine she would have been stressed by what she heard, so mis-remembering is a possibility.

 

[LAhiker]

My thought is that they either have the GPS from his phone or they do not (he turned off location services, which of course is highly suspicious). I think they have the GPS (and probably google maps and probably meta-data from all the pictures he took). We know he had a phone with him.

I also think they've had time to get the GPS from the truck (which should exist, given the truck's year, but I'm no truck expert).

They've had plenty of time to figure out exactly where he stopped along the way, if he had location services on.

So, from my point of view, they've had that information for quite some time. It either leads somewhere or it doesn't. If it does, if Barbara could be at a different spot, then it's now time to give a look. Weather is no longer an excuse, this weekend or this next week, to put it off.

I think they probably had much of this information during the 9-10 days of the search, which doesn't make me hopeful that there will be searches in any other places...

It’s not about “tricking,” as much as it’s about muddying the waters.

If he didn’t have location data turned on, then law enforcement would have to go by phone triangulation from cell towers.

That’s problematic, especially in that general area (towers far apart/terrain issues).

I have some questions. If RT left the GPS turned on on his phone, would that mean that there would be a continuous record of his movements? Would LE have to get a subpoena to get that info from the cell phone company, or would it be accessible some other way?

Let's imagine for a moment that GPS was turned off on his phone. In that situation, would cell towers have communicated with the phone even if when he wasn't making or receiving calls or texts? Even if there had been good signal in the area, how continuous a record of his movements would they have had? Given that (according to @sroad) cell service is spotty there, it probably wouldn't've been a very good record. Am I correct in understanding that LE would've needed a subpoena to get that data?

I guess other possibilities are that the phone was turned off or that it was in airplane mode. Airplane mode can make sense as a way of preserving the battery when signal is bad anyway.

Of course, even if LE needed a subpoena to get GPS or cell tower data, they could've gotten one and got the data. But I wonder if that would have delayed their getting such data until well into or after the 9-day search... JMO

 

[Nikynoo]

If I was RT, I would have to put myself in the family's shoes to understand how it might look, and I would want to be as open and honest and sharing as possible, and I would want to be involved in the family discussions about the possibilities of what could have happened to her. Even if I ended up being totally hurt, I don't think I could ever NOT share with her family the last photos taken of her.

Thats where you and I are different. Lets agree to disagree on this.

 

[deugirtni]

I agree to a certain extent, BUT, the IP lawyer in me says that they are not LE's photos to share.....

I'm not entirely certain about police not being able to show BT's family those last photos of her. Those photos would form part of an investigation, and surely LE is not completely cold to the family's concerns, especially being way the hay over on another continent. In fact, if there are any such photos, that family could assist police in verifying that the person shown in the photos is indeed their relative. jmo.

 

[Nikynoo]

I have some questions. If RT left the GPS turned on on his phone, would that mean that there would be a continuous record of his movements? Would LE have to get a subpoena to get that info from the cell phone company, or would it be accessible some other way?

Let's imagine for a moment that GPS was turned off on his phone. In that situation, would cell towers have communicated with the phone even if when he wasn't making or receiving calls or texts? Even if there had been good signal in the area, how continuous a record of his movements would they have had? Given that (according to @sroad) cell service is spotty there, it probably wouldn't've been a very good record. Am I correct in understanding that LE would've needed a subpoena to get that data?

I guess other possibilities are that the phone was turned off or that it was in airplane mode. Airplane mode can make sense as a way of preserving the battery when signal is bad anyway.

Of course, even if LE needed a subpoena to get GPS or cell tower data, they could've gotten one and got the data. But I wonder if that would have delayed their getting such data until well into or after the 9-day search... JMO

i dont know anything about location tracking, but I think upthread someone said that its available on the phone itself.

In regards airplane mode, I dont think so, but its possible. I would imagine that the phone would be charged as they traveled in the truck.

 

[10ofRods]

but not very much chronological information, what time they left, where they stopped off (e,g, it doesn;t mention the stop at the gas station). So, some information is missing from what was relayed from the sister to the VI. Other things *could* be missing also.

The first sentence in the post mentioned above says "hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can"

So, VI is recounting what he heard from someone else who talked to RT. RT>Sister>VI>WS

 

[Nikynoo]

I'm not entirely certain about police not being able to show BT's family those last photos of her. Those photos would form part of an investigation, and surely LE is not completely cold to the family's concerns, especially being way the hay over on another continent. In fact, if there are any such photos, that family could assist police in verifying that the person shown in the photos is indeed their relative. jmo.

if its just a missing person case, then no, they would need RT's permission. If its anything else and the photos are in evidence, again no, because release may compromise the investigation. We haven't heard from the VI for a few days, perhaps he has photos by now, who knows?

 

[Nikynoo]

The first sentence in the post mentioned above says "hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can"

So, VI is recounting what he heard from someone else who talked to RT. RT>Sister>VI>WS

Yes. Though to be fair, I think the VI may have copied and pasted the message from his sister.

 

[MassGuy]

I have some questions. If RT left the GPS turned on on his phone, would that mean that there would be a continuous record of his movements? Would LE have to get a subpoena to get that info from the cell phone company, or would it be accessible some other way?

Let's imagine for a moment that GPS was turned off on his phone. In that situation, would cell towers have communicated with the phone even if when he wasn't making or receiving calls or texts? Even if there had been good signal in the area, how continuous a record of his movements would they have had? Given that (according to @sroad) cell service is spotty there, it probably wouldn't've been a very good record. Am I correct in understanding that LE would've needed a subpoena to get that data?

I guess other possibilities are that the phone was turned off or that it was in airplane mode. Airplane mode can make sense as a way of preserving the battery when signal is bad anyway.

Of course, even if LE needed a subpoena to get GPS or cell tower data, they could've gotten one and got the data. But I wonder if that would have delayed their getting such data until well into or after the 9-day search... JMO

So if the GPS was turned on, then his location data would be very specific.

Law enforcement would have request this information via a subpoena, as they would to obtain information from his phone company (cell tower data).

If this was turned off, the phone still communicates with towers periodically. This occurs not only when sending and receiving texts, but after a certain amount of time.

If I’m not mistaken, this also occurs when a phone is powered down, and powered back up.

When the phone is off though, there’s no way to track it.

 

[10ofRods]

So why not make it plain to our VI that picture was taken that day if that's the case? I get a sense of beating around the cholla. JMO.

If it's a criminal investigation (and other SM would indicate that tips continue to drift in that direction) then there's no reason why LE would make that available to VI or me or reporter or anyone, until they are ready to do so. Typically, it would be within a consultation with a prosecutorial agency that such decisions get worked out. SBSCO is playing it close to the vest for now. That's the charitable interpretation.

They did tell VI that they had photographic evidence with time certain to show she was "there" that day (presumably, K/HH area).

I like to think it's a criminal investigation, at least for now. There seems no other ready explanation for what happened.

 

[GordianKnot]

The first sentence in the post mentioned above says "hmmm i don’t have the sharpest memory but i’ll try to recount as best as i can"

So, VI is recounting what he heard from someone else who talked to RT. RT>Sister>VI>WS

I think in that post, @dbdb11 copied and pasted what his sister had sent to him directly onto the thread.
I believe those are his sister's direct recollections, not db's retelling of her account.
@dbdb11, is that correct?

JMO.

 

[CSIDreamer]

so, does that mean we can forget about the imaginary photo taken at 2pm also?

I hope so.

 

[Nikynoo]

I hope so.

OK

 

[LAhiker]

it was in response to @GordianKnot post. If you use the timeline of the VI's sister, then the 2pm photo cannot exist. So, what is it? The VI's sisters timeline is correct, or does the 2pm photo, (which the VI has confirmed that LE stated exists (at 2pm)) exist. It the information that the photo exists, then the VI's recollection is incorrect. To be fair, she does say that her memory isn't great and I imagine she would have been stressed by what she heard, so mis-remembering is a possibility.

While the VI has confirmed that LE told him photos place RT where and when he said he was, we don't know exactly when or where that was, and as far as I know, the VI hasn't confirmed the time of a specific photo. So I don't think we have info that can either confirm or disconfirm either the VI's sister's recollection of what RT said or, if her memory is accurate, what he did say. JMO

 

[CSIDreamer]

OK

I have yet to find anyone such as LE or our VI saying 2 PM. I'm curious as to the reason for the sad face. I feel it's a rumor that isn't stopping.

 

[Nikynoo]

While the VI has confirmed that LE told him photos place RT where and when he said he was, we don't know exactly when or where that was, and as far as I know, the VI hasn't confirmed the time of a specific photo. So I don't think we have info that can either confirm or disconfirm either the VI's sister's recollection of what RT said or, if her memory is accurate, what he did say. JMO

I am certain that the VI mentioned that the photo was taken at 2pm. As that post has been deleted, do we now proceed on the basis that there has been no confirmation of photographic evidence from LE to the VI (or anyone else)? e.g. forget the post altogether?

 

[Nikynoo]

I have yet to find anyone such as LE or our VI saying 2 PM. I'm curious as to the reason for the sad face. I feel it's a rumor that isn't stopping.

Thats because the VI deleted the post.

Sad face because we are no closer to finding Barbara or figuring out what happened. We have no confirmed information at all, and deleted posts by the VI isn't helping IMO.

 

[MsBetsy]

Don't you think this imagined scenario would have been included in RT's description of events which he told his missing wife's relatives about, if it were true?

No, at least not to the media.
There is only so much information to report in an interview that only lasts about a minute. We don't know everything he told his family, but it seems as if they only had a few conversations about it in the very beginning.

Usually in such cases LE or the media will try to include the main points, or the relevant details.

There is no way they can fit in the whole story, so they probably would not include all the things they did before they went for the walk, during the walk, and everything Robert did after the walk.
Although a ten page report could be written about all the details, they are only going to include what is relevant in finding the missing person.
It may very well be included in the police report, though. Imo

 

[10ofRods]

Perhaps missing from the original text, which is understandable, but NOT totally missing forever and completely forgotten about. There was also more than one person listening apparently? I'm sure the family has hashed this out a billion times amongst themselves, as would any family of a MP. imo.

Yes - the other party is the very ill younger brother (and perhaps others). The call was between RT and Barbara's brother; it was on speaker phone IIRC and sister was there. I think it would have been the brother who would have been listening and asking questions and to whom RT's words were directed.

Was our VI's family told about the stop at the gas station? (if not, WHY not?)

Well, yes, since the VI followed up by calling the gas station and the kennel, IIRC. VI has been the only person who can pry info out of LE on this case, IMO.

I have some questions. If RT left the GPS turned on on his phone, would that mean that there would be a continuous record of his movements? Would LE have to get a subpoena to get that info from the cell phone company, or would it be accessible some other way?

Let's imagine for a moment that GPS was turned off on his phone. In that situation, would cell towers have communicated with the phone even if when he wasn't making or receiving calls or texts? Even if there had been good signal in the area, how continuous a record of his movements would they have had? Given that (according to @sroad) cell service is spotty there, it probably wouldn't've been a very good record. Am I correct in understanding that LE would've needed a subpoena to get that data?


I guess other possibilities are that the phone was turned off or that it was in airplane mode. Airplane mode can make sense as a way of preserving the battery when signal is bad anyway.

Of course, even if LE needed a subpoena to get GPS or cell tower data, they could've gotten one and got the data. But I wonder if that would have delayed their getting such data until well into or after the 9-day search... JMO

In a recent case in California, I believe no subpoena was needed for the Google GPS data (and I think the GPS data was also available to LE without a subpoena). The case never went to trial, so I don't know what would have happened (the defendent killed himself, according to what the Medical Examiner ruled). I think it may have been SBCSO as well. The GPS data led to a trail showing that the defendant-murderer stopped at several pawn shops and other places to sell/get rid of the victim's belongings. The trail ultimately led out of state. Warrants were issued based on that data.

There was some hope in the above case that the victim might still be alive (defendant said he dropped her off on a street corner in Kern County, IIRC). In this case, I'm not sure that there's as much a hurry to get the GPS data, so maybe they'd go for a subpoena (but not sure they have to). They've had plenty of time for that. I don't know how else they would have known to go to the convenience store.

If RT was turning off GPS and cell data, I'd think that would definitely make LE hurry up and get those records. But I think that most phone companies these days are perfectly willing to offer the data up to legitimate LE without much ado. There must be law on this point, but I sure don't know it.

Yes. Though to be fair, I think the VI may have copied and pasted the message from his sister.

I've communicated with the VI outside of this thread, so I'm going to keep that part out of this conversation, but I'd say that's not my impression based on these threads. I think the VI would have mentioned it here on the thread if it were the case. I think he did go a bit more into detail more recently.

I worry that he hasn't been around, but I'm glad he's taking a break and perhaps taking care of himself.

Why would VI mention his own faulty memory if he was cutting and pasting? Makes no sense and VI always makes sense, IMO. I think he was away from his Hong Kong family when all of this went down and spoke to his sister very soon after the phone call. He mentions more context somewhere on these threads but hopefully he'll pop and in answer our questions on this point.

I do know that people fill in gaps in stories to suit what they are picturing at the time they hear the story, we all do that. No one's memory is absolutely perfect.

 

[LAhiker]

I am certain that the VI mentioned that the photo was taken at 2pm. As that post has been deleted, do we now proceed on the basis that there has been no confirmation of photographic evidence from LE to the VI (or anyone else)? e.g. forget the post altogether?

I do think we should refrain from regarding that as a piece of info. The VI did say that LE told him that the photos showed that there was photographic evidence that RT & BT were there when RT said they were (but apparently didn't clarify exactly what that meant).

So if we think that LE was telling our VI the truth, we should not think there was no photographic evidence that they were there. Put more simply, the photos show they were there. But unless or until there is more specific info from the VI or from LE, we should forget about 2pm.

JMO