CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[GrainneDhu]

Okay, I'm there now. It was a bit confusing for me because the only charity SAR groups in England are for national and international emergencies, or mountain/sea rescue. It seems amazing to me that LE would actually help out with a private SAR operation - or even operate it themselves - but that's wonderful news. *It's still sinking in.*

In England you might well be arrested if you tried to do that in a possible murder enquiry, so I've been concerned about how it could actually be done, or permission could be granted. You don't know how glad I am to hear that if we can find the places, searches can definitely take place!

In the US, so long as you obey the law, any private citizen can start poking around on a murder case. That's what news reporters do! By obeying the law, I mean no trespassing, no harassment of witnesses, no impersonating a police officer, etc.

If it is an active investigation, LE may get annoyed if an amateur sleuth gets in the way. If the investigation has gone cold (no active leads being pursued), LE is more likely to be tolerant of anyone trying to solve the case. It still doesn't mean that doing something illegal will be tolerated.

SAR groups who want to search definitely have to research which areas are privately owned vs publicly owned land. If the land is privately owned, searchers have to get permission from the owner before searching it. Publicly owned land is mostly open to anyone who wants to go there but there are certain places such as military bases, etc, where the public is prohibited. The good thing about that is that anywhere that the public is prohibited is unlikely to be a place where a body would be dumped.

 

[Oriah]

In the US, so long as you obey the law, any private citizen can start poking around on a murder case. That's what news reporters do! By obeying the law, I mean no trespassing, no harassment of witnesses, no impersonating a police officer, etc.

If it is an active investigation, LE may get annoyed if an amateur sleuth gets in the way. If the investigation has gone cold (no active leads being pursued), LE is more likely to be tolerant of anyone trying to solve the case. It still doesn't mean that doing something illegal will be tolerated.

SAR groups who want to search definitely have to research which areas are privately owned vs publicly owned land. If the land is privately owned, searchers have to get permission from the owner before searching it. Publicly owned land is mostly open to anyone who wants to go there but there are certain places such as military bases, etc, where the public is prohibited. The good thing about that is that anywhere that the public is prohibited is unlikely to be a place where a body would be dumped.

BBM: this is one of the biggest issues in SAR imo. I understand the right and desire to privacy. I understand not wanting skeletons popping out of the closet that may have nothing to do with a search for your missing person.
I just don't understand it overriding the desire to find a missing loved one.

I wish there was a safe haven-type law for people with knowledge of missing persons.

 

[zwiebel]

In this case, I think we can take if for granted that permission will not be forthcoming - at least in a couple of places where it would be very interesting to see what a K9 might, or might not scent.

This has probably been asked before, but if a person is alive in a certain place, then dies there and is moved, how long do they have to be dead before a cadaver dog can differentiate between the live and dead scent?

ETA: So if someone was killed and moved within minutes?

 

[zwiebel]

BBM: this is one of the biggest issues in SAR imo. I understand the right and desire to privacy. I understand not wanting skeletons popping out of the closet that may have nothing to do with a search for your missing person.
I just don't understand it overriding the desire to find a missing loved one.

I wish there was a safe haven-type law for people with knowledge of missing persons.

Yes, I read that 14 states have an exemption from prosecution clause for harbouring a fugitive relative, but for a missing person a law like that could be so much more productive because it would help bring people home.

ETA: Don't take my word for it about the 14 states. Nowhere have I been able to find a list of which they are, or what kind of harbouring and which kind of fugitive count. Just lots of questions about it. I was trying to find out if this might apply in Bob's case, or involved person/people might be thinking it applies.

 

[believe09]

In this case, I think we can take if for granted that permission will not be forthcoming - at least in a couple of places where it would be very interesting to see what a K9 might, or might not scent.

This has probably been asked before, but if a person is alive in a certain place, then dies there and is moved, how long do they have to be dead before a cadaver dog can differentiate between the live and dead scent?

ETA: So if someone was killed and moved within minutes?

Right away. A well trained dog will know right away. Oriah hopefully wont mind me answering....I have learned a whole lot from Oriah and sarx when it comes to dogs.

Oriah can correct me if I am wrong but if a shoe falls from me when I am alive and the other falls from me after I am dead, the dog knows the difference and would alert on the one that was on me when I died.

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM: this is one of the biggest issues in SAR imo. I understand the right and desire to privacy. I understand not wanting skeletons popping out of the closet that may have nothing to do with a search for your missing person.
I just don't understand it overriding the desire to find a missing loved one.

I wish there was a safe haven-type law for people with knowledge of missing persons.

Personally, I think it is an artifact of the war on drugs.

I think if the law were limited only to evidence pertaining to a missing person during SAR searches, property owners would be more likely to grant permission.

 

[zwiebel]

In many cases they would I am sure. Sadly, it wouldn't make a cent's worth of difference in this case, imo.

Going on the search that was carried out in Bob's property last year, I am guessing that it is one place that remains accessible, because there is at least one person in this case willing to co-operate with LE as they truly want Bob to be found. My fear is that this may soon be reclaimed by the Trust - daughters in other words - and then would anyone put money on it remaining available for searches? Or will the 'confidentiality of the Trust' take priority over finding their father once again?

 

[Oriah]

Right away. A well trained dog will know right away. Oriah hopefully wont mind me answering....I have learned a whole lot from Oriah and sarx when it comes to dogs.

Oriah can correct me if I am wrong but if a shoe falls from me when I am alive and the other falls from me after I am dead, the dog knows the difference and would alert on the one that was on me when I died.[/quote]

BBM: that's a really good analogy. In that scenario, an HRD dog (properly trained, of course) will be able to scent discriminate the HR scent from the live scent, within minutes of the 'deceased' shoe falling. Some K9's are also trained to HR scent discriminate by age of the HR scent. So that shoe that was recently attached to a deceased person vs the shoe that was attached to a deceased person 3 years ago smell differently to a K9 trained in aged scent- and they should alert accordingly.

And all this talk of footwear- we have the info of the slippers that were beside Mr. Harrod's bed. And the tennis shoes he was allegedly wearing at the time he disappeared.
What was he wearing on his feet the night before he disappeared?

 

[believe09]

In many cases they would I am sure. Sadly, it wouldn't make a cent's worth of difference in this case, imo.

Going on the search that was carried out in Bob's property last year, I am guessing that it is one place that remains accessible, because there is at least one person in this case willing to co-operate with LE as they truly want Bob to be found. My fear is that this may soon be reclaimed by the Trust - daughters in other words - and then would anyone put money on it remaining available for searches? Or will the 'confidentiality of the Trust' take priority over finding their father once again?

How can the trust reclaim the marital residence of Bob's wife? I wouldnt worry about that zwiebel. Mrs Harrod is entitled to live in her husband's home. It is her home as well. The co conservators might be trying very very hard to force her out, for reasons known primarily to them, but the chances of their success are slim and none I bet. Gitana1 weighed in on the upcoming trial as to whether or not Mrs Harrod can be compelled to pay rent for her home. The answer is no-I look forward to the decision by the judge which will take this nonsense off of the table.

Perhaps if the co conservators had called in all of the markers, including that rather sizeable one belonging to AH, they would have had the money they appear to be seeking in order to increase the holdings of Bob's estate.

Wonder if that secret agreement has appeared in the files yet now that it has been unsealed?

 

[believe09]

And all this talk of footwear- we have the info of the slippers that were beside Mr. Harrod's bed. And the tennis shoes he was allegedly wearing at the time he disappeared.
What was he wearing on his feet the night before he disappeared?

I wonder if anyone noticed, Oriah, but then again perhaps the heated family meeting made everyone less observant. I suppose they might have noticed if Bob was wearing anything remarkably different from his normal attire...like a pair of bright red Converse high-tops for example.

 

[zwiebel]

Everytime anyone asks a question like that and I know the answer is, Bob's bio family, my heart just sinks a little. Even if the info is there, did it stay the same for two days running, is always my thought.

Re Mrs Harrod's home. That is justice doing what it is supposed to do, believe09. Thank you. I still find it incomprehensible that this case is being brought against their father's wife in the first place. What a waste of time, energy, thought and money. When all that could be expended on helping to find Bob.

 

[zwiebel]

Right away. A well trained dog will know right away. Oriah hopefully wont mind me answering....I have learned a whole lot from Oriah and sarx when it comes to dogs.

Oriah can correct me if I am wrong but if a shoe falls from me when I am alive and the other falls from me after I am dead, the dog knows the difference and would alert on the one that was on me when I died.[/quote]

BBM: that's a really good analogy. In that scenario, an HRD dog (properly trained, of course) will be able to scent discriminate the HR scent from the live scent, within minutes of the 'deceased' shoe falling. Some K9's are also trained to HR scent discriminate by age of the HR scent. So that shoe that was recently attached to a deceased person vs the shoe that was attached to a deceased person 3 years ago smell differently to a K9 trained in aged scent- and they should alert accordingly.

And all this talk of footwear- we have the info of the slippers that were beside Mr. Harrod's bed. And the tennis shoes he was allegedly wearing at the time he disappeared.
What was he wearing on his feet the night before he disappeared?

A tiny detail: I searched through all the pics I could find, and did find one where Bob was wearing his whitetrainers in the house. But given this was a special occasion and someone was taking photos, I still feel Bob was the type to wear his slippers in the house normally. Unless he had just been for his daily stroll, or was intending to go out. I don't think he intended to go out the night of the heated meeting, or the day he disappeared, personally.

ETA: I searched thoroughly before, not just in a few minutes now.

 

[Oriah]

I wonder if anyone noticed, Oriah, but then again perhaps the heated family meeting made everyone less observant. I suppose they might have noticed if Bob was wearing anything remarkably different from his normal attire...like a pair of bright red Converse high-tops for example.

Hmm. I suppose.

I was more wondering (and this is just from a K9 scenting standpoint, because I love shoes for scent work) why we have a description of the shoes Mr. Harrod was last seen wearing; and of his slippers being in the residence- but why we have an absence of info on the sneakers, and why would PPD not have used footwear found as a scent article??

Wait- that sounds kind of confusing. I guess I'm wondering if one or both of Mr. Harrod's sneakers as reported on his missing info was in the residence, as well as the slippers?

Because obviously he didn't leave the residence with his slippers. But we have no confirmation on his sneakers?

Wow, rambling now. Sorry!

 

[zwiebel]

It's not you rambling, it's just the rambling routes a person has to follow for any trails of evidence in this case!

As far as I know there is not certainty about any item of clothing/shoeware Bob was wearing that day. The one person who was in his house and should have known, either hasn't said or wasn't certain.

Given Bob's little collection of hats (seen on an msm photo sitting on a bookshelf behind Mrs Harrod) I wouldn't be surprised if he had a couple of pairs of near identical white trainers. Maybe a pair are still available? They didn't make it on to the memorabilia list.

ETA Has anyone got a teenager in the house who might be able to id them, if I link the picture?

 

[zwiebel]

I'm not sure about the wearing the slippers a lot theory now. They look almost unworn to me.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/-214111--.html?pic=2

I can't find the photo of the trainers it took me so long to find before. One day I'll learn to bookmark things.

 

[zwiebel]

Really sorry, I can't find the post with my link, or the pic using google. I know I posted in reply to Cubby about a teenager probably being able to spot the brand a mile off, but I still can't find it in a keyword search.

Never mind, it will turn up eventually. And available teenagers aren't likely to lose their logo- spotting ability in a hurry.

 

[zwiebel]

Anyway, given that Mrs Harrod kept Bob's hats (as evidenced in the photos), and provided no-one else removed them from the house, I suspect there will be a pair of shoes that could be made available to you, if you need them, Oriah.

By the way, last year I received a rechargeable power drill for Christmas. The year before, a cement mixer. This year, Mr Z is taking two weeks off work and I am getting something I really want. Something nice for Bob that we can all share. Best Christmas present in a long time.

 

[Cubby]

If I win tonights Power Ball, I'm putting up a million dollar reward for Bob's case. And that's a promise.

 

[believe09]

If I win tonights Power Ball, I'm putting up a million dollar reward for Bob's case. And that's a promise.

fingers crossed that Cubby wins...

 

[zwiebel]

Will family members be excluded from claiming any reward?

ETA: Yikes! Bob's family, not yours Cubby!