CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

[sfbaynancydrew]

Here is their page:

http://independentlivinginstitute.com/ILI/About.html

ER talked about his counselor through the Regional Center. ILI is a Regional Center vendor, they are paid by the RC and ONLY accept RC clients through a purchase of service. He may have been referencing an independent living counselor through this program.

I believe the media may have misinterpreted their role. He was clearly living in the regular student housing apartments.

 

[Nymeria]

Does the Independent Living Institute contract with different apartment complexes to provide their services?

That I do not know, it is possible I suppose.

 

[CARIIS]

[modsnip to fix quote]

Sorry about how I structured my posts - I know you weren't talking about it, but I was trying to show the other poster, who hadn't named examples, how examples that look damning were not going to get him committed because he hadn't shown any imminent threat of violence until the video posting/emails right before the shooting (and the balcony incident if it had been clearer what happened).

@Song22, thanks for sharing your story. Your son is a minor, correct? I agree it is reasonably easy to get mental health care for children where the parents have insurance, but I was saying that once they become adults and don't feel they need treatment, people here are advocating that a great many of them should be preemptively held (forever?). To force that, the state would have to pay, or the person would have to have good health insurance. There would be so many people in the system. And I personally know of a few families who couldn't get their adult kids into mental health beds for several days, which isn't a long time, but with someone in that state, it can be the difference between life and death.

Also, fortunately, your son sounds like he is able to stabilize and you can bring him home soon. What bothers me is the common reaction that people who've had to go into a hospital for treatment of violent thoughts should not come out because it is too dangerous. While it is true that there's always a risk and some people need institutional care, most parents obviously do not want their child in their forever if there is hope of stabilization. There are just so many lines we have to draw - really tough situation. Sad you have to deal with it - hope he comes home soon.

 

[lawstudent]

ASD is a neurological disorder. It's become more and more loosely defined, so there really aren't subtypes. It's a spectrum of symptoms that can range from rendering the person totally nonfunctional to just making them seem a bit off.

It is not at all like bipolar/schizophrenia or other mental illnesses that tend to be episodic in nature. Many autistic people take no medication at all. It's not an issue of balancing brain chemistry like with the others, but sometimes normal emotional issues they have may be treated with medication. You don't have to worry about them being "stable" in the same way. There is statistically no increase in violence among the autistic population. We did have a very unfortunate incident where I live with a student with Asperger's, but that's the only one I can think of. I believe Lanza had way more than Asperger's.

While I see characteristics of the autism spectrum symptoms in him, I do not think that was his main issue. He was clearly very high-functioning and thus "low" on the spectrum. I don't even see how he'd qualify for Asperger's, which was recently taken out of the DSM diagnosis manual. He is actually very perceptive, but seems unable to replicate normal behavior. Hearing voices indicates some sort of psychosis, but he almost seems to be a sociopath who was caught early and appeared strange due to his other conditions. Unlike other sociopaths, he couldn't blend in, and maybe he received counseling to try and get him to connect more and not be so self-centered, so it expressed itself differently. It also definitely sounds like depression to some extent - just an increasing disconnect. I think, as most of these people do, he has a strange psych profile that won't fit a label, or a bizarre combination of disorders.

 

[Isabelle]

Why would they not give him freedom?

Group homes for mentally ill persons do not allow independent freedom of the residents. This from a home health RN.

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

Does the Independent Living Institute contract with different apartment complexes to provide their services?

The apartment complex could not provide services, they would have to be licensed by Cal-DSS, regulated and subjected to yearly audits.

However the ILI may have a list of sympathetic apartment complexes who accept referrals from their program and accept a renter with the knowledge that they have the assistance of this program to help keep the client on top of paying bills, buying groceries, navigating transportation, etc.

It's not a foregone conclusion but it's possible. And most likely entirely irrelevant to the crimes he committed. Just another support system and entitlement he received but ultimately didn't use to improve himself.

 

[CARIIS]

also didn't hear that he had been on any meds as a youth. It is imperative to start meds early to decrease the symptoms (how great it would have been if ER's obsessive/intrusive thoughts had been under control when he was in high school through meds) and to te

I think, hope mom and dad will come forward I think we are going to find therapy meds etc for sme time. I dont know that

It is not hard to have a child hospitalized if you have money. It is very difficult if you do not have resources. I have a child who has Bipolar. He has been hospitalized several times. The hospital is comfortable and well-staffed. There is coping-skills training and therapy and group therapy. Bipolar kids sometimes have tantrums. He becomes defiant and aggressive. He will make threats and physically attack us or else start banging his head or punching himself in the face. We can call the police and they are well-trained and kind to him. An ambulance comes and brings him to the hospital. Then they decide if he should be inpatient or outpatient. Outpatient is all day coping skills and therapy. If we, the parents want him to be inpatient, we tell them.

Presently our son is in residential treatment. It is wonderful. It is not at all scary or traumatic. He will be home in a few months. He's there to get more intensive therapy. We are not as rich as the Rodgers, but we make a good income. And yet, even with our good income we are getting tons of help from medicare. We pay for half of one month--it's not cheap, but it's doable. We will pay it off with a payment plan. The rest of his stay-- as long as we need it--is paid for by medicare entirely.

I'm sharing all of this to say that in many communities it is not hopeless at all. It's absolutely true that in many, many communities mental healthcare access is horrible--especially in rural communities. When we first had our son diagnosed it did feel overwhelming and it sometimes felt hopeless because we didn't know what was available to us. But with two educated parents, we hit Google and got to work. We live pretty close to Mayo clinic and that's where he was diagnosed. It wasn't cheap, but we didn't go bankrupt.

Where is the actual evidence that ER was being seen daily by a therapist when he was 8? This seems to be just referring to the school counselor? I haven't seen any evidence that he was actually getting any real treatment as a youth. But I could have missed it--I cant keep up!

I also didn't hear that he had been on any meds as a youth. It is imperative to start meds early to decrease the symptoms (how great it would have been if ER's obsessive/intrusive thoughts had been under control when he was in high school through meds) and to teach compliance so that when he became an adult he would take his meds. ER was supposed to take risperdal. That was the first med my son was prescribed and it worked wonders (he had intrusive thoughts, bloody/violent visions)--but my son needed more than just risperdal. Taking riseprdal alone when you're in your late teens with these kinds of symptoms is not intensive intervention.

I am not blaming the parents. I am a parent with a kid who has scary symptoms. BUT it's just hugely important if you have a kid like this, not to be in denial. I don't think my child would ever do something like this, but the minute I find a violent picture in his journal or the minute he shares that he's had some recurring bloody image in his head--I am on it! We don't ever dismiss these symptoms. ER was definitely sharing his symptoms with many people. How often did he express his hatred for so many others? If my kid was repeatedly expressing hatred or entitlement I would be on it. In fact, one of the dangers of having a child with a mental illness is that sometimes families will tip-toe around the child and cater to them and then create a secondary problem with narcissism. This happened to my dad who is also bipolar and narcissistic because everyone always gave in to his tantrums.

I bring up these things in hopes that if there are families struggling they will be encouraged to seek resources just as soon as it becomes evident that there is a problem. There is help out there and often the hospital is the way to get it fastest. Early intervention is super important. You can have your older child hospitalized for "tantrums"--screaming, biting, hitting etc. (I'm not talking about age-appropriate younger child tantrums). ER describes having tantrums as a teen and could have been hospitalized for that. JMO

 

[Suthrnqt]

Marking my spot.....

 

[Isabelle]

The institute "serves handicapped, developmentally delayed, and under-educated individuals in the areas of independent living, academics and vocational skills."

ER's dad's attorney made the comment that the son lived in a community that provides care and support to disabled persons, aka group home for mentally ill with around the clock support/care staff. This was not correct information. ER lived in an apartment complex that catered to college students. IMO, the attorney was setting up damage control or was showing the sympathy card.

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

Group homes for mentally ill persons do not allow independent freedom of the residents. This from a home health RN.

That may be true, but group homes for developmentally disabled adults, even dual diagnosed mentally ill ones DO. They are classified as a different population and governed by a completely different set of regulations. (Title 22 and 17)

 

[jjenny]

That may be true, but group homes for developmentally disabled adults, even dual diagnosed mentally ill ones DO. They are classified as a different population and governed by a completely different set of regulations. (Title 22 and 17)

Well, he clearly didn't live in one.

 

[Isabelle]

That may be true, but group homes for developmentally disabled adults, even dual diagnosed mentally ill ones DO. They are classified as a different population and regulated by a completely different set of rules. (Title 22)

The amount of freedom would depend on the level of function. I believe the individual's advance through levels that give them more independence. ER did not have this type of living situation, his was no different from any other student living in the comples.

 

[CARIIS]

Funny!!

Isn't amazing that so many people can not grasp that some do not check in an instant

- in our days (!) it could take as much 2 days before a response for "us" old folks!! Could you imagine a 20 year old not getting a response to "do you want cream in you coffee within 14.2 seconds

its unreal~

It is not hard to have a child hospitalized if you have money. It is very difficult if you do not have resources. I have a child who has Bipolar. He has been hospitalized several times. The hospital is comfortable and well-staffed. There is coping-skills training and therapy and group therapy. Bipolar kids sometimes have tantrums. He becomes defiant and aggressive. He will make threats and physically attack us or else start banging his head or punching himself in the face. We can call the police and they are well-trained and kind to him. An ambulance comes and brings him to the hospital. Then they decide if he should be inpatient or outpatient. Outpatient is all day coping skills and therapy. If we, the parents want him to be inpatient, we tell them.

Presently our son is in residential treatment. It is wonderful. It is not at all scary or traumatic. He will be home in a few months. He's there to get more intensive therapy. We are not as rich as the Rodgers, but we make a good income. And yet, even with our good income we are getting tons of help from medicare. We pay for half of one month--it's not cheap, but it's doable. We will pay it off with a payment plan. The rest of his stay-- as long as we need it--is paid for by medicare entirely.

I'm sharing all of this to say that in many communities it is not hopeless at all. It's absolutely true that in many, many communities mental healthcare access is horrible--especially in rural communities. When we first had our son diagnosed it did feel overwhelming and it sometimes felt hopeless because we didn't know what was available to us. But with two educated parents, we hit Google and got to work. We live pretty close to Mayo clinic and that's where he was diagnosed. It wasn't cheap, but we didn't go bankrupt.

Where is the actual evidence that ER was being seen daily by a therapist when he was 8? This seems to be just referring to the school counselor? I haven't seen any evidence that he was actually getting any real treatment as a youth. But I could have missed it--I cant keep up!

I also didn't hear that he had been on any meds as a youth. It is imperative to start meds early to decrease the symptoms (how great it would have been if ER's obsessive/intrusive thoughts had been under control when he was in high school through meds) and to teach compliance so that when he became an adult he would take his meds. ER was supposed to take risperdal. That was the first med my son was prescribed and it worked wonders (he had intrusive thoughts, bloody/violent visions)--but my son needed more than just risperdal. Taking riseprdal alone when you're in your late teens with these kinds of symptoms is not intensive intervention.

I am not blaming the parents. I am a parent with a kid who has scary symptoms. BUT it's just hugely important if you have a kid like this, not to be in denial. I don't think my child would ever do something like this, but the minute I find a violent picture in his journal or the minute he shares that he's had some recurring bloody image in his head--I am on it! We don't ever dismiss these symptoms. ER was definitely sharing his symptoms with many people. How often did he express his hatred for so many others? If my kid was repeatedly expressing hatred or entitlement I would be on it. In fact, one of the dangers of having a child with a mental illness is that sometimes families will tip-toe around the child and cater to them and then create a secondary problem with narcissism. This happened to my dad who is also bipolar and narcissistic because everyone always gave in to his tantrums.

I bring up these things in hopes that if there are families struggling they will be encouraged to seek resources just as soon as it becomes evident that there is a problem. There is help out there and often the hospital is the way to get it fastest. Early intervention is super important. You can have your older child hospitalized for "tantrums"--screaming, biting, hitting etc. (I'm not talking about age-appropriate younger child tantrums). ER describes having tantrums as a teen and could have been hospitalized for that. JMO

It's a wonder that the email was seen so quickly. Could have been much worse, as us old folks don't necessarily check our email every 5 minutes.

The call from the therapists had to have been prompted by the video. You can't read that manifesto that quickly, in fact I'm not sure I can finish it.

 

[Isabelle]

I wish more information about ER's true medical/mental condition would be released, but I don't expect it will.

 

[CARIIS]

[FONT=&quot]Good piece has map [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/police-were-warned-of-suspect-before-deadly-rampage/[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]poster of his guns [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/santa-barbara-college-community-in-shock-after-mass-murder/[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]new witness stories / family lawyer[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/524-e...conic-lombard-street-to-face-partial-closure/

a bit more on welfare check
http://www.keyt.com/news/mass-murder-roadmap-zig-zags-through-college-town/26162178

interview with neighbor
http://www.keyt.com/news/alleged-gunmans-apartment-now-a-crime-scene/26157468

 

[sfbaynancydrew]

The amount of freedom would depend on the level of function. I believe the individual's advance through levels that give them more independence. ER did not have this type of living situation, his was no different from any other student living in the comples.

Totally agree, I was going off a tangent.

ER definitely appeared to be living on his own and his expectations appeared to be that of an average adult college student renting an apartment.

 

[Isabelle]

I wonder if the expense the family would have incurred for inpatient care prompted them to have him move to SB and hope for the best.

 

[Isabelle]

Seeing Christopher Martinez' dad so grief stricken is like a hot knife in my heart! So much pain that will never end.

 

[CARIIS]

I am pretty sure there was a time peroid in the last 5 weeks where mom made him remove the posts and then he reposted closer to his decision that he cant he live with the pain anymore

also anyne heard any thing on autopsy of the roomates? I have been wodnering if time of death varied between each victim.

ER stated that he had made other videos and posted them up on YouTube a month before the murders and held back the final "retribution" one due to having a cold or something.

So in essence, he did give the proverbial "warning shot" but apparently no one could hear it, perhaps. I don't know if he had personally e-mailed or sent the videos to people a month before the murders but they were put up on YouTube.

 

[jjenny]

I wonder if the expense the family would have incurred for inpatient care prompted them to have him move to SB and hope for the best.

If he was autistic, he was very highly functioning.
I am not sure what would be the reason to have him in inpatient care (before his parents knew he was homicidal and suicidal)?