CA - Elliot Rodger kills 6, injures 13 in Isla Vista, Near UC Santa Barbara, #2

[jjenny]

So then who prescribed the Xanax? If he had a prescription then a mental health care provider wrote the script like a Psychologist or a Psychiatrist. Which then the presumption is that he was under a more active therapy treatment than what has been stipulated?
And if this is the case, I wonder what this mental health caregiver is thinking now?

Tough spot. Sad every way you look at it.

Psychologists generally can not write prescriptions because they are not MDs. However, any MD can write a prescription. Doctor doesn't have to be a psychiatrist.

 

[jjenny]

I'm behind in the reading here, but it's possible he never TOLD anyone he had decided not to take the medication. He might have repeatedly had it refilled at the appropriate times (monthly or quarterly) so that his parents (who were probably paying for it via their insurance) and the shrink would not know that he was not taking it.

Very possible.

 

[mck16]

:giggle: SO true mck!

I would also like to add that they made me so anxious that I did not take them. They made me feel like I could scream. So, that tells me that they do effect people differently. I did not like the way they made me feel at all, so I didn't take them. jmo

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I would say maybe he was getting it on the street like Brandon Daniel (Who killed Officer Jaime Pardon in TX), but somehow I can not see ER being social enough to locate and be trusted by street dealers.
Then again who know, a lot of his friends said he was "off" but they never thought he was THAT bad....so 'tis possible.

Well, you can get Xanax thru dubious internet sites but when I suggested that, another poster here said the family attorney stated that ER had been on Xanax for 6 mos.

And one could concur that if the family attorney said that, it was likely a legit prescription for Xanax from one of the two Psychologists the family claimed ER was under the care of.

Mind you, for a diagnosis (and a prescription written) by Psychologists--it is not simply a shot in the dark. Benzo's are not given out like candy anymore. Psychologists are trained to ask pertinent questions to make a diagnosis. It is not random, hunch, or a winging-it venture. There is inference, observation, knowledge, and diagnostic/statistical criteria. While it is true that some patients are good at faking it.....it is equally true that some people are good at seeing the "fake", iykwim?

Psychologists are also insured and liable, licensed by their state and scrutinized under a board panel. I'm sure records will be subpoened.

Hmmmm......

 

[MyBelle]

Well, you can get Xanax thru dubious internet sites but when I suggested that, another poster here said the family attorney stated that ER had been on Xanax for 6 mos.

And one could concur that if the family attorney said that, it was likely a legit prescription for Xanax from one of the two Psychologists the family claimed ER was under the care of.

Mind you, for a diagnosis (and a prescription written) by Psychologists--it is not simply a shot in the dark. Benzo's are not given out like candy anymore. Psychologists are trained to ask pertinent questions to make a diagnosis. It is not random, hunch, or a winging-it venture. There is inference, observation, knowledge, and diagnostic/statistical criteria. While it is true that some patients are good at faking it.....it is equally true that some people are good at seeing the "fake", iykwim?

Psychologists are also insured and liable, licensed by their state and scrutinized under a board panel. I'm sure records will be subpoened.

Hmmmm......

I take anything their attorney says with a grain of salt. There are huge liability issues. While it is true their son was an adult, they were totally supporting him including providing the apartment and the vehicle he used in his crime spree.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Psychologists generally can not write prescriptions because they are not MDs. However, any MD can write a prescription. Doctor doesn't have to be a psychiatrist.

sigh.....I know Jenny! Anyway, most Psychologists give the scripts 'cause they practice with a Psychiatrist under his/her licensure. In some states, Psychologists can write their own scripts and this is increasing.

So, if ER was on Xanax for 6 months as the family attorney stated, where did he get it from? I doubt the MD who treated ER for the "ledge incident" would've renewed a Xanax script if he had been the one who initially prescribed it.

So who?

 

[mck16]

sigh.....I know Jenny! Anyway, most Psychologists give the scripts 'cause they practice with a Psychiatrist under his/her licensure. In some states, Psychologists can write their own scripts and this is increasing.

So, if ER was on Xanax for 6 months as the family attorney stated, where did he get it from? I doubt the MD who treated ER for the "ledge incident" would've renewed a Xanax script if he had been the one who initially prescribed it.

So who?

I think ER was very street savy and could get any drug he wanted to. I will be very surprised if they don't find multiple drugs in his tox screen. I would bet on some sort of steroids. jmo

 

[BigCat]

I think ER was very street savy and could get any drug he wanted to. I will be very surprised if they don't find multiple drugs in his tox screen. I would bet on some sort of steroids. jmo

I gotta say that I've never imagined ER to be street savvy. I think he would be much more comfortable around medical and mental health professionals (not sure what to call that kind of savvy) than drug dealers. I don't think it would have taken much effort on his part to get a Xanax prescription. He could have simply told his primary physician that he had panic attacks. It's my impression of LA that docs are fairly liberal with handing out scripts there; however, I have no first hand knowledge.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I think ER was very street savy and could get any drug he wanted to. I will be very surprised if they don't find multiple drugs in his tox screen. I would bet on some sort of steroids. jmo

I think ER had no clue what street savvy even meant. His drug of choice was alcohol, he viewed himself as a gentleman and was extremely conflicted by the loose morals young women exhibited and he hid himself behind a wall of fantasy movies and video games.

 

[nightwatch]

When I was a young teenager, college campuses were in the news quite often. There were many, many protests (usually about the Vietnam war, but sometimes about the colleges and the way things were done). These protests sometimes ended in violence, such as Kent State in 1970. I was terrified of the mere IDEA of going to college. The Texas University at Austin tower shooting (Charles Whitman, 1966) was something I was not even aware of until I was well into my 30s, if not 40s. I was only 11 at the time, and it wasn't really on my radar, so group violence by students and military/police was the big thing in my mind at the time

Many of today's young minds will probably be quite afraid to go to college due to mass murders. It's a sad state of affairs, indeed.

The same could be said for high school after columbine. Jmo

ciao

 

[Colbie]

IMO They handled it as a wellness check and not a 5150 check. If the mom was the one to call I would think she assumed ER was going to kill himself.But if a Mental Health Professional called it in, as a 5150 And the officer mishandled it he would be in trouble but ER was highly manipulative and fooled many people.

From my understanding a wellness check (also called a welfare check) encompasses people with psychiatric issues, disabled/elderly persons, those who are reported missing, etc. Once the police arrived for the wellness check with the information given to the dispatcher about the situation, they interview the person and determine if any services, psychiatric holds (which is a 5150), arrests, etc. need to be made.

In short, wellness/welfare checks can sometimes result in a 5150 hold, but 5150 holds most often come from wellness checks.

I've only practiced in Texas and Colorado so this might not be the case with certain areas, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[mck16]

I think ER had no clue what street savvy even meant. His drug of choice was alcohol, he viewed himself as a gentleman and was extremely conflicted by the loose morals young women exhibited and he hid himself behind a wall of fantasy movies and video games.

So, you think this massacre was carried out by a perfectly clear minded person. Maybe drunk, maybe on Xanax. I am sorry, but I disagree. He was definitely on some drug. jmo

 

[jjenny]

So, you think this massacre was carried out by a perfectly clear minded person. Maybe drunk, maybe on Xanax. I am sorry, but I disagree. He was definitely on some drug. jmo

His plan was to take Xanax and vicodine, so if he didn't manage to kill himself, the overdose would do him in. So, I presume that's what he did.

 

[mck16]

His plan was to take Xanax and vicodine, so if he didn't manage to kill himself, the overdose would do him in. So, I presume that's what he did.

So, where did he get the Vicodin. On the street??? jmo

 

[lawstudent]

So, you think this massacre was carried out by a perfectly clear minded person. Maybe drunk, maybe on Xanax. I am sorry, but I disagree. He was definitely on some drug. jmo

Was Adam Lanza on anything? Was James Holmes (I think something but I forget)? I'd say most mass murderers are not on anything when they commit these crimes. Drugs have a way of making you focus on yourself such that you might engage in violence with those immediately around you who you have a dispute with, but do not really go in line with long term planning and brooding and having the ability to pull it off. Drugs tend to derail longterm plans. Of course, this is a generalization, but most horrific crimes do not seem to be committed by people on drugs. They are suffering from mental illness or have snapped under extreme circumstances. Stupid, impulsive crimes are committed by people on drugs. Again, a generalization, but people always want to blame these crimes on psych meds (or ADHD meds, which is laughable). Most of these people don't appear to have been on any meds.

 

[Colbie]

They didn't seem to do much of anything after deciding he was polite. Haven't they heard of Ted Bundy?
Yet apparently this was all well and good, according to your link.
Wow.

I've never understood why LE, most of whom don't have advanced degrees in behavioral psychology or clinical experience, are given the responsibility to determine whether or not a 5150 is needed. I have heard of rare police departments in the US that have a psychiatric nurses or clinical social workers on call to assist police with making the appropriate determination during welfare checks. I wonder if the police had watched the videos and had such assistance from a mental health professional that the outcome would be different?

I definitely think that the California proposal to make it easier to get "restraining orders" for family members or mental health professionals to prohibit legal possession of firearms by those at risk of violence would also have been beneficial. I really hope this becomes the law in all states.

 

[Quester]

Man Who Came Face-to-Face With Isla Vista Killer Recounts Close Call
http://ktla.com/2014/05/29/man-who-came-face-to-face-with-isla-vista-killer-recounts-his-close-call/

 

[mck16]

Was Adam Lanza on anything? Was James Holmes (I think something but I forget)? I'd say most mass murderers are not on anything when they commit these crimes. Drugs have a way of making you focus on yourself such that you might engage in violence with those immediately around you who you have a dispute with, but do not really go in line with long term planning and brooding and having the ability to pull it off. Drugs tend to derail longterm plans. Of course, this is a generalization, but most horrific crimes do not seem to be committed by people on drugs. They are suffering from mental illness or have snapped under extreme circumstances. Stupid, impulsive crimes are committed by people on drugs. Again, a generalization, but people always want to blame these crimes on psych meds (or ADHD meds, which is laughable). Most of these people don't appear to have been on any meds.

These drugs make you feel empowered to do what ever you want and to whomever you want. This occurs in the mental illness persons or in the people who are just on drugs. They are in a state of being higher empowered and think that whatever they do is right. Drugs elevate the mind to the level of thinking that what they do is right and all will be okay. It is a false feeling of euphoria. jmo

 

[Colbie]

I'm behind in the reading here, but it's possible he never TOLD anyone he had decided not to take the medication. He might have repeatedly had it refilled at the appropriate times (monthly or quarterly) so that his parents (who were probably paying for it via their insurance) and the shrink would not know that he was not taking it.

It is impossible to enforce medication adherence. Reporting psychiatric medication noncompliance to the police or relatives would be a major HIPAA violation and would most definitely end up in a malpractice lawsuit. We cannot enforce medication compliance without an inpatient/outpatient involuntary hold. I've heard of many doctors terminating care with a patient if they do not adhere to the treatment plan. With a drug like Risperidone, blood levels are routinely checked to see if the Risperidone is at a therapeutic level. Most doctors find out about medication noncompliance this way in addition to client report and presentation.

 

[momrids6]

I've never understood why LE, most of whom don't have advanced degrees in behavioral psychology or clinical experience, are given the responsibility to determine whether or not a 5150 is needed. I have heard of rare police departments in the US that have a psychiatric nurses or clinical social workers on call to assist police with making the appropriate determination during welfare checks. I wonder if the police had watched the videos and had such assistance from a mental health professional that the outcome would be different?

I definitely think that the California proposal to make it easier to get "restraining orders" for family members or mental health professionals to prohibit legal possession of firearms by those at risk of violence would also have been beneficial. I really hope this becomes the law in all states.

BBM: either do teachers- yet they are faced with the responsibility of "educating" them- as well as all students safety..? You (as in a general term) do not want to see some of what is in class with your kids, imo. Teachers are not given a dx. They are not given a list of meds each kid is on / supposed to be taking, etc. They are given a list of accomodations/modifications to curriculum if there is a 504 or IEP in place only.


Um- 3 were stabbed to death. ER had no criminal record. A law to prohibit possession based on an opinion of another is a slippery slope, imo. I also believe a law of that type would definitely discourage people from seeking treatment. I have a disabled son, who is more likely to be a victim- who also has a CCP