GUILTY CA - Gianni, 24, & Sal Belvedere, 22, Ilona Flint, 22, San Diego, 24 Dec 2013 - #1

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  • #801
I agree SDHELPS, the presser seems to verify the two times POI is at the mall. Possibly there is grainy video and the mention that LE expects to 'release more info as it becomes available' means they are currently working to clarify that video and will release an image when it becomes recognizable to the public. just my thoughts
 
  • #802
Or if you buy something with your own money on the premise someone else was going to buy it from you but you get stuck with it because they don't hold up their end of the deal for whatever reason such as fear of getting caught etc

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Yeah, that's possible too.

What makes me think it was a loan default rather than a purchase default is this: if someone bought something, he would still have the inventory, so it's not a total loss. In a loan default, the lender takes a 100% bath, a really brutal financial loss.

I think monetary loss and revenge are the two primary factors, with the Christmas holiday weighing in to a lesser degree.

My guess is the lender was getting increasingly impatient and frustrated and this had been dragging on for quite a while, at least several months of receiving not even a penny. I think a deadline of December 23rd at midnight was given or may have even been an unspoken deadline in the lender's own mind. For a lot of people, Christmas shopping is one of the biggest financial expenditures of the year, and the killer may have been counting on that money in order to have what he considers a decent holiday. He needed the money by midnight on the 23rd in order to have just one day of Christmas shopping and, for him, the Grinch stole Christmas. If he was at the mall and saw the\a borrower buying something expensive for the girl while the lender's own mom had to do with less, and while he isn't getting even a penny repaid on the loan, that could've been very provocative. The final insult. The final straw.

If it doesn't have to do with drugs, I think people will be really surprised when they find out who did it. My profile of the killer (if drugs aren't involved) is:

*Male
*Christian parents. Christmas is a big deal at his home. Plenty of gifts under the tree.
*From an upper middle class family. He had enough money to loan, but is still on a budget.
*In his 20s. Young enough to be naïve enough to lend a large amount of money to an acquaintance, but old enough to actually have it to lend.
*Single, no children. A wife isn't going to let a husband lend money like that, for starters. The money would've been in the kid's college fund instead of available for discretionary BS like loaning money to friends.
*Very, very good at saving money and misunderstands people who can't save money. People in debt are usually addicted to spending. They're addicts. But he can't relate to that and can't even wrap his mind around that concept. He didn't forgive because he didn't understand. If he did, he wouldn't have lent the money in the first place.
*A quiet, bookish type who did very well in school.
*A very, very small circle of friends.
*A schizotypal personality: everyone knows he's eccentric, but nobody realizes he is capable of performing a triple homicide.
*Very polite.
*Rarely complains verbally and rarely displays anger in public, keeps it bottled up and this time it finally exploded.
*I think his politeness, his academic excellence, and his outward calm made him seem like a convenient person to take advantage of. He was misunderstood because he's so quiet, so two-faced (the face he shows to the public, and one behind the veneer). He wasn't the person they thought he was. Even now, after three murders under his belt, he's still the unfailingly polite quiet guy.
*Very impatient. He could've done it at a better location, but he had to do it right then and right there. He didn't have it in him to wait.

This is all just a hypothetical guess. I'm not saying any of this actually happened.
 
  • #803
Suspect was in the mall, yet no photo from him shopping? I know here in Los Angeles, my local mall has cameras set up because of the kiosks everywhere. I assume this mall isn't without kiosks, so I have to ask.... why no photo if they are so sure (and willing identify a POI at a presser)?


Leads me to believe they have someone locked in right now. Just waiting for more evidence or for said person to slip up. Releasing a photo would maybe scare him off.

I am confident they have video. It's likely more a matter of whether it shows enough from the face or not.

Having seen all the armed robberies lately and nearly every case having video out within a day or two, I think they have it...but are holding off. I suspect they want someone to give more info (and I'd suspect on perhaps noticing someone having been acting odd the last month now with all this info, etc.)

99.999999% they have his picture from one of the mall's camera why aren't they showing it. Lets face it he is no longer wearing the same thing - LOL - so what do they want the population to look for!!! Cant arrest everyone between 5-10 and 6 feet tall.

They want someone who knows someone who could fit to call something in, IMO...

I think it very well may be an Adidas hoodie and that's what lead to the 'unique' comment by LE. unique=only one, Adidas=only trademarked company selling hoodies with white stripes going around biceps

I think Adidas is TOO common...at least even just from my day out today here in SD.

I think it may well be something like a rugby or futbol (soccer in the US) jersey that would fit that characterization better.

Like this New Zealand All Blacks jersey (Actually, that was the very first thing that came to mind with unique, black, long sleeve, bands on the biceps - though you see a million variations of the knock off of all jerseys depending on what country they were made in, nevermind then even within each country!)

I think the word unique was very intentional.
 
  • #804
Oh, and just in general, I HIGHLY doubt the person worked at the mall.

The odds of some random mall employee killing Sal and Ilona, and then managing to also:

a) know they were connected to Gianni (who LE is still saying was NOT at the mall that night)

b) managed to FIND Gianni

c) managed to get him somewhere and kill him...and...

d) then make him turn up 90 miles north in his own car?

Unless there was some mall employee connected to the family who had a vendetta against them or something (I highly doubt that) I just think the odds of some kid from Target or Best Buy or anywhere else there really employee wise being behind this.

Given Gianni being found where he was, and obviously having been 'kept' somewhere for nearly a month, this is entirely too planned out and targeted, basically...and way to aimed at them.

JMO.


ETA: If you're going with who all requires tan pants - it's MANY places, restaurants included, down there. Starbucks is another, Staples (across the street) is tan, black, and maybe denim w/ red shirts (much like Target) - really, at least 60% of what's around either requires it or gives it as one of the only options for pants. Heck, probably also the theatre and Macy's.

Aside from that being unlikely to help narrow it down, it'd be WAY more risky for it to be an employee b/c they WOULD be easily identifiable on film - and there clearly is some given the specific times given.

Nevermind all the other reasons above I listed as to why I doubt it it is...but if you want to start listing employers, it'd be a VERY long list down there, including all the other Mission Valley peripheral malls that are included (and the restaurants) - plus factoring in some change requirements for the holidays.
 
  • #805
I have been thinking of this statement since I watched and listen to it live. Why say this in this way?

Well, we'd had people theorizing here it was a mafia type thing (I'm not in that camp, but...there are certainly those who are)...that could be a factor? Belief the person had left the country and it's not to someone w/ extradition to the US type agreement?

Personally I think it's more apt to be that they have reason to think that there might be "we'll take this into our own hands" type of action and they're trying to say THEY are going to do this through legal channels not "street justice."

(And I don't think it's about SDPD's reputation - the agency w/ the real respect/reputation issue - at least in most of the county - is the Sheriff Dept...and if they're involved, it'd only be the hands on part b/c of the business...but I suspect it'll still be left to SDPD)
 
  • #806
Well, we'd had people theorizing here it was a mafia type thing

Rightly or wrongly, the male victims' family's Sicilian background has made that theory more popular than it otherwise would be.
 
  • #807
KGTV definitely has their "Team 10" folks looking into the business side of things:

http://www.10news.com/news/investig...ess-started-by-murder-victim-gianni-belvedere

They - KGTV - have been the most thorough on this one all along - where as KFMB was the one gnawing on the McStay case more closely. They've been intimating that there was something on the business side of things that likely was playing into things, and even moreso since Gianni was found. I'm guessing that may be due to some sources they have and others don't...
 
  • #808
A mafia hit most likely wouldn't have taken out the girlfriend. WAGs are pretty sacred in that world. On the other hand, bodies in trunks and at malls are both things that the mafia has done. But, see my first sentence. WAGs are almost always off limits.

Very few Italians are actually mobbed up. Even Sicilians. Stupid TV shows and movies perpetuate that myth.

(WAGs=Wives and girlfriends)
 
  • #809
A mafia hit most likely wouldn't have taken out the girlfriend. WAGs are pretty sacred in that world. On the other hand, bodies in trunks and at malls are both things that the mafia has done. But, see my first sentence. WAGs are almost always off limits.

(WAGs=Wives and girlfriends)

Times are changing. They didn't use to, but they do now. :drumroll:
 
  • #810
I don't think it was rabid hedgehogs. :smile:
 
  • #811
Someone said earlier how much the brothers resembled each other and maybe the perp accidentally killed Sal when he wanted to kill Gianni. What if it was the other way around? (Sorry if this was suggested already.) But, if the perp killed the wrong brother (Gianni) it would make sense that he'd panic and put him in the trunk and then go find the correct target (Sal) that way no one found Gianni and messed up the perp's chances of getting Sal. That makes more sense to me then killing 2 people, leaving their bodies in plain sight and then killing the intended target but hiding that body.

I hope that made sense.
 
  • #812
Yeah, that's possible too.

What makes me think it was a loan default rather than a purchase default is this: if someone bought something, he would still have the inventory, so it's not a total loss. In a loan default, the lender takes a 100% bath, a really brutal financial loss.

I think monetary loss and revenge are the two primary factors, with the Christmas holiday weighing in to a lesser degree.

My guess is the lender was getting increasingly impatient and frustrated and this had been dragging on for quite a while, at least several months of receiving not even a penny. I think a deadline of December 23rd at midnight was given or may have even been an unspoken deadline in the lender's own mind. For a lot of people, Christmas shopping is one of the biggest financial expenditures of the year, and the killer may have been counting on that money in order to have what he considers a decent holiday. He needed the money by midnight on the 23rd in order to have just one day of Christmas shopping and, for him, the Grinch stole Christmas. If he was at the mall and saw the\a borrower buying something expensive for the girl while the lender's own mom had to do with less, and while he isn't getting even a penny repaid on the loan, that could've been very provocative. The final insult. The final straw.

If it doesn't have to do with drugs, I think people will be really surprised when they find out who did it. My profile of the killer (if drugs aren't involved) is:

*Male
*Christian parents. Christmas is a big deal at his home. Plenty of gifts under the tree.
*From an upper middle class family. He had enough money to loan, but is still on a budget.
*In his 20s. Young enough to be naïve enough to lend a large amount of money to an acquaintance, but old enough to actually have it to lend.
*Single, no children. A wife isn't going to let a husband lend money like that, for starters. The money would've been in the kid's college fund instead of available for discretionary BS like loaning money to friends.
*Very, very good at saving money and misunderstands people who can't save money. People in debt are usually addicted to spending. They're addicts. But he can't relate to that and can't even wrap his mind around that concept. He didn't forgive because he didn't understand. If he did, he wouldn't have lent the money in the first place.
*A quiet, bookish type who did very well in school.
*A very, very small circle of friends.
*A schizotypal personality: everyone knows he's eccentric, but nobody realizes he is capable of performing a triple homicide.
*Very polite.
*Rarely complains verbally and rarely displays anger in public, keeps it bottled up and this time it finally exploded.
*I think his politeness, his academic excellence, and his outward calm made him seem like a convenient person to take advantage of. He was misunderstood because he's so quiet, so two-faced (the face he shows to the public, and one behind the veneer). He wasn't the person they thought he was. Even now, after three murders under his belt, he's still the unfailingly polite quiet guy.
*Very impatient. He could've done it at a better location, but he had to do it right then and right there. He didn't have it in him to wait.

This is all just a hypothetical guess. I'm not saying any of this actually happened.

Great Profiling. I can just picture this guy in my mind. Let's see how it pans out if/when they catch him.
 
  • #813
Yeah, that's possible too.

What makes me think it was a loan default rather than a purchase default is this: if someone bought something, he would still have the inventory, so it's not a total loss. In a loan default, the lender takes a 100% bath, a really brutal financial loss.

I think monetary loss and revenge are the two primary factors, with the Christmas holiday weighing in to a lesser degree.

My guess is the lender was getting increasingly impatient and frustrated and this had been dragging on for quite a while, at least several months of receiving not even a penny. I think a deadline of December 23rd at midnight was given or may have even been an unspoken deadline in the lender's own mind. For a lot of people, Christmas shopping is one of the biggest financial expenditures of the year, and the killer may have been counting on that money in order to have what he considers a decent holiday. He needed the money by midnight on the 23rd in order to have just one day of Christmas shopping and, for him, the Grinch stole Christmas. If he was at the mall and saw the\a borrower buying something expensive for the girl while the lender's own mom had to do with less, and while he isn't getting even a penny repaid on the loan, that could've been very provocative. The final insult. The final straw.

If it doesn't have to do with drugs, I think people will be really surprised when they find out who did it. My profile of the killer (if drugs aren't involved) is:

*Male
*Christian parents. Christmas is a big deal at his home. Plenty of gifts under the tree.
*From an upper middle class family. He had enough money to loan, but is still on a budget.
*In his 20s. Young enough to be naïve enough to lend a large amount of money to an acquaintance, but old enough to actually have it to lend.
*Single, no children. A wife isn't going to let a husband lend money like that, for starters. The money would've been in the kid's college fund instead of available for discretionary BS like loaning money to friends.
*Very, very good at saving money and misunderstands people who can't save money. People in debt are usually addicted to spending. They're addicts. But he can't relate to that and can't even wrap his mind around that concept. He didn't forgive because he didn't understand. If he did, he wouldn't have lent the money in the first place.
*A quiet, bookish type who did very well in school.
*A very, very small circle of friends.
*A schizotypal personality: everyone knows he's eccentric, but nobody realizes he is capable of performing a triple homicide.
*Very polite.
*Rarely complains verbally and rarely displays anger in public, keeps it bottled up and this time it finally exploded.
*I think his politeness, his academic excellence, and his outward calm made him seem like a convenient person to take advantage of. He was misunderstood because he's so quiet, so two-faced (the face he shows to the public, and one behind the veneer). He wasn't the person they thought he was. Even now, after three murders under his belt, he's still the unfailingly polite quiet guy.
*Very impatient. He could've done it at a better location, but he had to do it right then and right there. He didn't have it in him to wait.

This is all just a hypothetical guess. I'm not saying any of this actually happened.

Wow - very thorough - great job!

Personally, I keep going round and round on potential scenarios. I just think a personal loan would not warrant holding someone for a period of time (Gianni) - what would that gain unless there was a ransom (which I did think could be a possibility some time back). Also, if someone was to suddenly 'lose it' and expel pent up anger, IMO you would be more inclined to see them shooting up the entire mall or at the very least, a more dramatic, public display of anger. These shootings were public but in a private sort of way (IYKWIM). There was some element of control - unless LE are not telling us the full story, there doesn't seem to be many witnesses - lots of people close by, but such limited pubic awareness of what was happening so close to them. The person who did this knew how to use stealth in this crime. Experienced maybe, or equipped to do the job with limited noise and spectacle.

I am now leaning more towards two possible scenarios - one to do with Gianni's business, and one to do with the family. But I do believe money will be at the centre of it.

Edit: Did Gianni's new business venture step on any toes? Was he gaining market edge on another business? Just a thought.
 
  • #814
I thought the "ethically" comment by SDPD was odd too. I've never heard that from LE regarding solving a case. I wonder if it's a code message or something - like telling someone who knows who did it - "it's ok, come forward, we're not going to hurt your buddy if you tell us."
 
  • #815
It seems to me Gianni's car was very clean when it was found. In the time it was missing, I think it might have been washed, parked indoors somewhere or covered up (in SoCal I've seen car covers on parked cars in driveways, the street, and even parking lots).

There's a video at the link below that shows the car being loaded onto the tow truck and it seems to be gleaming, even the glass.

http://blog.pe.com/breaking-news/20...found-in-vehicle-connected-to-san-diego-case/
264mblw.jpg
 
  • #816
It is really clean. What is up with that license plate? It's bent and looks to not be fully attached. Maybe it had been removed and then replaced. This is a crazy crazy case.
 
  • #817
I've been following the whole thread but there's one event I seem to have missed the answer to.

After Ilona and the brother were killed, was the shooter spotted getting into the back of a Honda? Meaning he was a passenger and there were multiple people involved?

Or was he spotted getting into the driver's seat of a getaway car, meaning he acted alone?

According to former FBI special agent Brad Garrett, who is now a law enforcement consultant for ABC News, those responsible for the deaths of the Belvedere brothers and Flint likely have ties to Riverside.

"Bad guys typically drop cars in the proximity of where they hang out because they know it, it's familiar to them," he said. "So is there a connection as far as the shooters are concerned? My guess is the answer is yes."
This quote leads me to believe bestinthewest's theory about this involving drugs.

Maybe the guy who dropped off the car in Riverside was their drug connect. He drove down to SD to settle whatever dispute it was that they had, and then took Gianni with him back up to Riverside. Just speculating here.
 
  • #818
I've been following the whole thread but there's one event I seem to have missed the answer to.

After Ilona and the brother were killed, was the shooter spotted getting into the back of a Honda? Meaning he was a passenger and there were multiple people involved?

Or was he spotted getting into the driver's seat of a getaway car, meaning he acted alone?


This quote leads me to believe bestinthewest's theory about this involving drugs.
Maybe the guy who dropped off the car in Riverside was their drug connect. He drove down to SD to settle whatever dispute it was that they had, and then took Gianni with him back up to Riverside. Just speculating here.


BBM: Both last night at 11:00 pm and then again this morning at 6 am KGTV reported that a drug deal gone horribly wrong is what detectives are saying. The news reports have not been updated online but I will keep a look out for when they are.

So yes this would give credence to what thebestinthewest stated and what I was told at lunch yesterday.

Keep your eye on: http://www.10news.com/
 
  • #819
correct me if I'm wrong. The one article I read about the poi being seen at the mall said one sighting was on the 23rd & the other on the 24th. Was he wearing the same cloths? If they have him on video two different days, they surely know what he looks like & are not revealing.
 
  • #820
Another thought. I'm having a hard time connecting the person seen twice in the mall with a planned triple homicide. I think it more likely that this person was looking for someone to rob or carjack. Le might be looking for him as a possible witness.
 
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