CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #3

[mrjitty]

@mrjitty you are leaving me hanging here LOL I am interested to know what you are thinking!

Nothing earthshattering

I just think this was a bad day at the office for the Prosecutor

I get the idea to show that CM was a scam artist and crook. Joey is "missing" and CM is scamming clients for cash. My guess is that the prosecution cannot use that kind of evidence from before the murders as it is classic propensity evidence (like the issues with the priors). So here was a chance to reveal chase as a scam artist

But I think all of this is too peripheral and we are risking losing the big picture down here in the weeds

 

[Niner]

Tuesday, January 29th:
*Trial continues (Day 13) (@ 9:30am PT) - CA - McStay Family: Joseph (40), Summer (43), Gianni (4) & Joey Jr (3) (Feb. 4, 2010, Fallbrook; found Nov. 11, 2013) - *Charles "Chase" Ray Merritt (57/now 60) arrested (11/5/14) & indicted (11/7/14) of 4 counts of murder with special circumstance; plead not guilty. DP case.
12 jurors & 6 alternates were finalized on Tuesday (12/11/18). 8 women & 4 men, while the alternates include 4 men & 2 women. Trial started on 1/7/19.
Skipping Day 1 thru 6 – reference post #1180 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #2
1/16/19 Day 7: State witnesses: Det. Troy DuGal. Denys Williams, a forensic evidence technician for San Diego County, now retired, since 2014. Trial continues on 1/17.
1/17/19 Day 8: State witnesses: Denys Williams, retired evidence technician with San Diego Co. She took photos inside the McStay home. Joe Sequeida, employee from Metro Sheet Metal. Dark on Fridays, continues on Tuesday, 1/22, as Monday the 21st is a holiday.
1/22/19 Day 9: State witnesses: Joe Sequeida, from Metro Sheet Metal. John Bluth, is the motorcycle rider that found the human skull and called police. Sgt. Gary Hart. is with the San Bernadino Sheriff's dept. At the time of this investigation he was a detective. After jurors released for break, one atty (Maline) was scolded by judge for being 20 min late to court for third time. Sgt. Armando Avila (subject to recall), was a detective in the homicide for San Bernardino County at the time the remains were found. Trial continues on 1/23 and will be from 9:30am to 12:30pm.
1/23/19 Day 10: State witnesses: Dr. Alexis Grey, forensic anthropologist. The state will now play the police interrogation video of Merritt of 2/17/10 (DuGal's interview). Trial continues on 1/24.
1/24/19 Day 11: Judge announces there will be no court on Monday, Feb 4 & possible late start on Feb 5. They are back to playing the Audi interview of CM, on Feb 17th. State witnesses: Heatherly Radeleff, San Bernardino Sheriff's Lead Crime Scene Specialist. Det. Edward Bachman, lead investigator San Bernardino County. Trial dark on Fridays, trial continues on 1/28.
1/28/19 Day 12: State witnesses: Susan Heckaman, worked for Geis Construction. Jeffrey Martin, Martin's company (Geis Construction) did business with McStay's company. Dr. Chanikarn Changsri, medical examiner. Trial continues 1/29.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO, they have a tendency to leave loose ends, why call this witness and then not followup with evidence establishing it was CM who received the money? Doing so, especially, with it being so early in the trial is going to alienate the jury. I hope the evidence they have verifying the lunch meeting is something more convincing than the booking reservation, to support the claim DK made about being in Hawaii.

Agreed.

I don't get why they didn't have the correct witness for this info. If there is a key point they wanted to make with these exhibits - they need the right witness to make it.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes. From opening statements:

We next knew that this was a financial case, so we contacted Denis Shogren, who is a forensic accountant. He has been an accountant for 20 years, his primary purpose is he's a forensic accountant in trusts and wills, he likes to see where money goes, where it's spent. And it's funny, we really needed him because this is a financial case but the government never wrote (?) for an accountant to tell them where the money went. You are going to learn about that. Our expert gave them a report, they hired one now. I guess we will see where that goes.

Following the knife fiasco, I think we should treat the defence claims in opening as likely misleading and speculative until proven otherwise

 

[mrjitty]

They painted the picture - he didn't fulfill the contract despite receiving about $11700 and they still had to go and seize the goods at additional expense and do their own installation and assembly. If we factor in that this was Joey's company's money Chase should probably only have been paid his labour and materials/expenses, but I'm only guessing Joey wouldn't have given him 100% on that sale.

I think if analysed cold bloodedly, it does reveal Chase as a pure scam artist and con man.

A defence talking point is why would Chase rip off Joey in such an obvious way - he'd get caught. But the thing about conmen is that is exactly what they do. Then comes all the lying and excuses until people see through it.

The prior customer complaints found by @Texas Red are fascinating because they reveal exactly this sort of obvious con/scam behaviour.

He takes people in, takes their money, then rips them off by not completing their jobs and misusing their funds. Then he lies to them.

That's exactly what he was doing with Joey and MSM.

The he went too far - and that is the motive for quadruple homicide.

The case is blindingly obvious at it's heart but I worry the prosecution is not painting a simply picture

 

[mrjitty]

I found these two reports claiming CM, was ripping people off through his waterfall business way back in 2005 and 2006.
Ripoff Report | Waterfalls By Chase complaints, reviews, scams, lawsuits and frauds reported, 2 results

This is fascinating and supports the idea this guy was not particularly sophisticated.

Run of the mill con artist/scammer.

Take peoples money, don't deliver, then hide.

 

[mrjitty]

One interesting point

The Murder Police have DKs bank statements

The idea he was not investigated seems pretty laughable now.

 

[mrjitty]

I really wish that the State didn't insist that it happened in the home. I find it hard to believe that they were killed anywhere there is carpet, anywhere near walls, all of the clothes, and really, how do you avoid ALL of those things? The prosecution witness, the ME, seems to agree that there would be blood, so IMO there is no doubt that there should have been some blood. I'm sure the defense will go even further with their own witnesses and will have it described as huge pools of blood lol Add to that, the house was not 'clean', there was dust, there were footprints on the floor, and clothes everywhere.

I was taking note of the left/right hand thing too ehenson, I am not sure we can tell much from it because there is no way to know if he was in front or behind them. JMO

Just playing devil's advocate, because we don't yet know the forensics of the house.

I think the defence is pulling a reverse Amanda Knox.

Without wanting to comment on guilt in that case, the Knox defence was that "the crime scene" was the bedroom where the murder occurred. So that was the defence mantra. No Knox DNA in the murder room. Yet forensic evidence potentially pointing to guilt was found elsewhere in the house - e.g bloody footprints, mixed blood.

In this case we have the reverse. The defense points to a messy living area and says "look no murder!"

But murder does not happen in every room. Yes the house is a crime scene - but in which room(s) did murder take place?

E.g if in the bathroom, or walk in closet, or course we don't see spatter in the living areas.

I will put my money where my mouth is and say they did find blood somewhere - despite a cleanup.

And my guess is blood did run onto the 'bleached" carpet.

 

[asyousay]

Yesterday was really intriguing for me as I have never been able to get over the lack of blood.

I still think not all the family were killed in the house and if they were that the prosecution have a ton of evidence to prove it.

Blood can be found years afterwards I thought (?) from the tv shows I watch so even when you think you have got rid of they can still find it as blood is a to clean.

 

[Tortoise]

Summer didn’t have a shirt in the grave. So he got rid of it because he had her blood and some how his dna on it.

Let's look at the paint on the bra (and the hammer) to see if we can't work out what it means.

I speculate:

The large amount of paint on the bra cup indicates she had no shirt on. Unless paint pots were transported to the desert but they're photographed in the house and not in the graves.

She was wearing the bra when it got paint on it because she's still wearing it in the grave.

I reject the suggestion she was painting while lying on the floor and paint dripped down onto her - this wasn't a drip or splash from above, it's a thick coating of her left cup (see photo below) and then she's turned over onto her right side and the paint has dripped down towards the middle of the bra, suggesting it happened soon after the paint got there because it hadn't dried, and there was no more movement after that because she's lying there long enough for the paint drips to dry and not to change course.

Her left bra cup was submerged in the paint tray - to get that dripping quantity and I think that could be a line of paint showing submersion. I can't think of another source of paint in an area large enough for the side of her body to lie submerged in, like the paint tin for example.

This attack happened in the house while she is wearing bra and sweatpants. The paint on the bra is matched to the same paint on the hammer, and the paint was wet when it got on the hammer. Unless there was a wet paint source ie paint tin, roller, or tray, in the desert the hammer got paint on it at the house and the wielder of the hammer had wet paint on his hands or gloves.

There is no blood in the white paint on the hammer. This suggests the hammer wasn't washed - if it was soluble paint. The type of paint in the tray was probably being used with a roller suggesting it was paint for the walls, not for the woodwork, and so it was likely to be an emulsion (washable) paint. So where is the blood on the handle if it hasn't been washed? Does this indicate it was not a very bloody scene - no blood spatter on the paint on the hammer or on the killer's gloves which made contact with the paint, and it's a very short handle close to site of impact. Does the fact the handle wasn't washed suggest he was using someone else's hammer and wearing gloves, so he wasn't worried about fingerprints in the paint or DNA?

If I try and tie this in with my earlier posted theory about Summer's wet pants and being restrained with painters tape while seated, I would suggest the head strikes match that scenario perfectly. I theorize she was struck first under the chin to get her to give him her phone password, breaking her jaw, and then later when he decides to kill her he hits her multiple times on the head while still restrained seated upright, because if she was on the ground and unconscious after the first head strike he would not have access to all sides of her head unless he's turning her over to hit her but that seems pointless.

Multiple strikes to the head seated in the same position, lead to her death and the release of urine. Remember Susan Blake talking about the smell of dirty diapers - maybe he forgot to clean up the seat of the chair cushion. He goes and finds a large container in the closet - so that there is no DNA in the truck.

When the restraining tape is removed she falls to her left side on the floor and the paint tray. She is rolled over as he removes her from the paint tray and sees her pants are wet and maybe fecal-soiled and he doesn't want it on his clothing because of the odor so he pulls her pants off by the left leg forcing the right pants leg to pull up inside. He dumps the pants in the container as well as the ball of painters tape and then her body lying on her right side and the paint starts to drip down on her bra. The right cup is still attached to the bra because there's no point cutting one half of her bra off only to leave the other side still on her. She's lying in the grave with her left side down so tipped out of the container from her right side exactly as she went into it, pants ending up last next to her head. I think the uppermost right bra cup in the grave has been ripped by pulling from hard earth by animal activity.

Photos - click to enlarge.

1. the bra cup
2. the paint on the hammer handle

 

[asyousay]

Where is it coming from that Chase used containers to transport the body?

What size container would you need to fit Joey or Summer who was small but still over 5ft?

 

[Tortoise]

All of their hands are missing. I find this most strange given that Summer would have been lying in the grave with at least one of her arms underneath her. OS: "The left cup of Summer’s black bra was found under her body. She was lying face down almost on her side." Also Joey Sr was wrapped up and tied around.

Summer wore rings on her left hand, but it's possible she removed them for painting - another sign she was painting when this occurred. Joseph also wore a ring but he's not wearing it in all the photos. Were their wedding bands found at the house? Would an animal really seek out and remove all eight hands?

photos of them wearing rings

I wonder the significance of this.

 

[Tortoise]

Where is it coming from that Chase used containers to transport the body?

What size container would you need to fit Joey or Summer even who was over 5 ft?

1. Clothes strewn everywhere on the floor in the closet.
2. I've read comments that Summer's wedding dress was out, but I don't know where in the house.
3. No DNA in the truck - presumably.
4. Speculation from all of the above because trails of blood in the house and on the driveway would point to a crime having occurred which the Sheriffs Dept said there was no sign of.

 

[mrjitty]

There is no blood in the white paint on the hammer. This suggests the hammer wasn't washed - if it was soluble paint.

Or it was washed, and the paint got on there after the murders.

 

[mrjitty]

All of their hands are missing.

All their hands are cut off?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Let's look at the paint on the bra (and the hammer) to see if we can't work out what it means.

I speculate:

The large amount of paint on the bra cup indicates she had no shirt on. Unless paint pots were transported to the desert but they're photographed in the house and not in the graves.

She was wearing the bra when it got paint on it because she's still wearing it in the grave.

I reject the suggestion she was painting while lying on the floor and paint dripped down onto her - this wasn't a drip or splash from above, it's a thick coating of her left cup (see photo below) and then she's turned over onto her right side and the paint has dripped down towards the middle of the bra, suggesting it happened soon after the paint got there because it hadn't dried, and there was no more movement after that because she's lying there long enough for the paint drips to dry and not to change course.

Her left bra cup was submerged in the paint tray - to get that dripping quantity and I think that could be a line of paint showing submersion. I can't think of another source of paint in an area large enough for the side of her body to lie submerged in, like the paint tin for example.

This attack happened in the house while she is wearing bra and sweatpants. The paint on the bra is matched to the same paint on the hammer, and the paint was wet when it got on the hammer. Unless there was a wet paint source ie paint tin, roller, or tray, in the desert the hammer got paint on it at the house and the wielder of the hammer had wet paint on his hands or gloves.

There is no blood in the white paint on the hammer. This suggests the hammer wasn't washed - if it was soluble paint. The type of paint in the tray was probably being used with a roller suggesting it was paint for the walls, not for the woodwork, and so it was likely to be an emulsion (washable) paint. So where is the blood on the handle if it hasn't been washed? Does this indicate it was not a very bloody scene - no blood spatter on the paint on the hammer or on the killer's gloves which made contact with the paint, and it's a very short handle close to site of impact. Does the fact the handle wasn't washed suggest he was using someone else's hammer and wearing gloves, so he wasn't worried about fingerprints in the paint or DNA?

If I try and tie this in with my earlier posted theory about Summer's wet pants and being restrained with painters tape while seated, I would suggest the head strikes match that scenario perfectly. I theorize she was struck first under the chin to get her to give him her phone password, breaking her jaw, and then later when he decides to kill her he hits her multiple times on the head while still restrained seated upright, because if she was on the ground and unconscious after the first head strike he would not have access to all sides of her head unless he's turning her over to hit her but that seems pointless.

Multiple strikes to the head seated in the same position, lead to her death and the release of urine. Remember Susan Blake talking about the smell of dirty diapers - maybe he forgot to clean up the seat of the chair cushion. He goes and finds a large container in the closet - so that there is no DNA in the truck.

When the restraining tape is removed she falls to her left side on the floor and the paint tray. She is rolled over as he removes her from the paint tray and sees her pants are wet and maybe fecal-soiled and he doesn't want it on his clothing because of the odor so he pulls her pants off by the left leg forcing the right pants leg to pull up inside. He dumps the pants in the container as well as the ball of painters tape and then her body lying on her right side and the paint starts to drip down on her bra. The right cup is still attached to the bra because there's no point cutting one half of her bra off only to leave the other side still on her. She's lying in the grave with her left side down so tipped out of the container from her right side exactly as she went into it, pants ending up last next to her head. I think the uppermost right bra cup in the grave has been ripped by pulling from hard earth by animal activity.

Photos - click to enlarge.

1. the bra cup
2. the paint on the hammer handle

View attachment 166419 View attachment 166420

Your detailed theory is so well thoughout and compelling.

Imo whether their heads did bleed or didn't isnt what I find most compelling.

Someone posted the autopsy photo of JBR and the severe damage done to her skull yet the ME only discovered this during her autopsy. She too had a head full of hair helping to absorb the blow. The damage she sustained to her head went inward and not outward.

Other cases where the victims had been bludgeoned the fractures to the skull had bruising on the scalp but no blood came outward. The major damage that caused death was from massive bleeding found inside of the brain itself and within the skull cavity.

A friend of ours sustained a severe fracture to his jaw during a work related accident. He didnt have any laceration on the outside but the damage was severe to the jaw due to the crushing fracture he had sustained that required 4 different surgery to repair his jaw.

In this case due to them being all skeltonized when finally found means the brain had long ago deteriorated making it impossible to examine everything that would tell them so much more about all of the damage they all sustained.

This would include what the brain could have told them with certainty if they had been found soon after.

I think all of them suffered extreme brain swelling and severe bleeding to the brain and that caused their death.

A fracture to the jaw although painful would not cause death.

The only way the same paint found on Summer's bra and also found on the sledgehammer means the paint was wet at the time it got on her bra and when the same paint was still wet when it got on the sledgehammer.

To me it means both wet items were inside of the McStay home at the time they were murdered. That's where the paint was found that matches.

It was inside of the McStay home at the very time they suddenly disappeared and later the same paint was found in their graves. The paint had to be wet at the time and we know Summer was using this same paint. Latex wall paint is made to dry quickly in about an hour. You can touch it with your hand and no paint is on your hands.

The wet paint is not a coincidence.

Imo

 

[mrjitty]

The wet paint is not a coincidence.

Agree.

In this case, it is a proxy for blood.

 

[Tortoise]

Or it was washed, and the paint got on there after the murders.

That could be right. It looks to not have any blood staining on it.

But I don't see the point - he only has to wrap it in a towel and put it with the bodies. If he's wearing gloves (I think he is or we might get a nice fingerprint in that paint) it's only going to have their blood on it and he's not leaving it in the house so he doesn't need to hide the blood. If he wanted to hide the weapon because of HIS dna and not having it connected to the murders, I doubt he would have left it with the bodies. He could have dug a separate hole for the hammer miles away, where it wouldn't ever be linked.

It still looks grubby and there's a lot of ridges on the handle where specks not visible to the eye could be lurking, along with his DNA if it was his hammer, if he'd used soap or bleach I think it would look cleaner.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Where is it coming from that Chase used containers to transport the body?

What size container would you need to fit Joey or Summer who was small but still over 5ft?

I think it's just a theory but a very good one imo.

I count begin to count the cases where storage containers were used to transport bodies. Some contained very large males and adult females.

I have seen cases where murderers used regular suitcases to transport intact bodies.

I bet CM had many such kind of storage containers including large ice chests since he was a welder.

That way he can just put them in it even if he used three. One each for the adults and one for the two boys. That way on the way to bury them nothing would be found inside of the transport vehicle but would be inside the sealed storage containers.

Imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Agree.

In this case, it is a proxy for blood.

Thank you.

To me it's like finding a suspect's bloody fingerprint commingled with the victim's blood.

The only reason it can be there is because the suspect was there at the time when the blood of the victim was being spilled during the murder and the blood is still wet.

Imo