CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #6

[Karuna]

OK, one water bladder. Was it confirmed one backpack (the baby carrier with reservoir combo)? With the scaled-down water and gear 50 lbs (minimum) was being hauled on this journey. All by one person in an ill-fighting pack?

BBM. What's the source for the ill-fitting pack? Was this part of the PC today?

 

[rahod1]

Many may question how they could made the decisions that found them on this trail in this heat, but I think it's also important to realize that many (most?) would likely have succumbed much much earlier on that hike on that day in those conditions than they did. They were a mile & a half from being unappreciated heroes that none of us would have ever have heard of.

With all respect...this is a false narrative for me. Most would have succumbed earlier? So this elevates them to unappreciated heroes? They put themselves...and dependents in jeopardy. The infant and pet were doomed as a result of their relentless plan to forge ahead in conditions that were untenable and dangerous. MOO

 

[rahod1]

Double post

 

[Karuna]

I cannot believe how far they walked in direct sun, in 100+ temperature. I took a walk with my dog the other day at 76 degrees, in full sun, no wind, 48% humidity. It was the constant sun on us that started to get real uncomfortable. I tried to imagine being in 99 degrees, and I couldn't. Then add the elevation and switchbacks. Such a tragedy. Horrible
Sheriff says family on California hike died of extreme heat

I had a similar experience. Went to a pumpkin patch with my family two weekends ago. It was 72 degrees, in full sun, no wind (don't know the humidity) - a farm in a valley amongst foothills. I couldn't believe how hot it felt and only 72 degrees! I thought of them the whole time, because in direct sun, it was increasingly uncomfortable and we were just walking around, no exertion. Thinking of adding nearly 50 degrees in heat and massive exertion really put it in perspective. So tragic and unfathomable what they went through.

 

[5W's]

Does anyone know about their keys? The press conference I came across was literally not very audible except when the Sherriff was speaking. Someone probably has posted the entire news conference here but I have to go back & look until I come across it. Still so many unanswered questions. As I mentioned on an earlier post I thought the outcome of the investigation was going to be such as this which is HS or heat exhaustion in other words. Their families are left asking "Why." I wonder if we'll get some sort of answer once the cell phone examination is completed by the FBI? The Sherriff said that Oski's test results are unknown or inconclusive but (I could be wrong here maybe they are still pending, forgive me) it is believed by LE that Oski also died of the heat. What about his paws were they burnt? If not that doesn't make sense to me. I don't think the condition the family was in that they could have been able to carry Oski. MOO. Oski would have collapsed a long time before if the hike the family is suggested as having done. Its not possible the elevation they climbed and the heat starting to get higher that Oski could continue. There is more to this than what has been concluded by the investigation IMO. Don't get me wrong LE has to work with what they have so its not on their part. So many questions!

 

[rahod1]

I don't think I'd give water to an infant from a bladder (they might choke), but they had bottle(s) with formula, just remove the top and dribble water into it from the bite valve. The dog could not have made it that far without water, so it was drinking somehow. Perhaps by my method, or dribbling water from the bite valve into cupped hands. It became a moot issue when they ran out of water.

True...but the bottle had some formula in it....indicating it wasn't used for water.??

 

[WillieMac]

With all respect...this is a false narrative for me. Most would have succumbed earlier? So this elevates them to unappreciated heroes? They put themselves...and dependents in jeopardy. The infant and pet were doomed as a result of their relentless plan to forge ahead in conditions that were untenable and dangerous. MOO

Once they were down that hill, there was no good option for retreat. There are simply too many unknowns about what their thoughts and intentions were here on the day they went out for this hike. I will not for a second assume that my hindsight (which is the only thing we all have at this point) might presume to encompass & overrule everything that may have led to them going out on that day. I can't. I won't. I refuse to elevate myself to a point where I assume that I understand everything that they have ever encountered our experienced or any of their life histories which may have allowed them to come to the place on their life where they found themselves on that day. At best, i might be able to green a snippet or two from SM posts or from statements about them made by friends, family, or neighbors. None of that allows me to presume that I know why or how they arrived on the situation they found themselves that day. For those reasons, I move past that and accept that they were where they were. And I stand by my statement. Once they found themselves there, I admire the dedication they had to each other & the effort they made to fight their way thru the situation they found themselves in. We can all second guess everything about this to no end. ...but thats where it will get us. ...to no end. Infeel like they did at some point realize the situation they were in - and the outcome they likely faced. And I think they continued to struggle to survive for themselves and their family until the bitter end. JMHO

 

[rahod1]

Does anyone know about their keys? The press conference I came across was literally not very audible except when the Sherriff was speaking. Someone probably has posted the entire news conference here but I have to go back & look until I come across it. Still so many unanswered questions. As I mentioned on an earlier post I thought the outcome of the investigation was going to be such as this which is HS or heat exhaustion in other words. Their families are left asking "Why." I wonder if we'll get some sort of answer once the cell phone examination is completed by the FBI? The Sherriff said that Oski's test results are unknown or inconclusive but (I could be wrong here maybe they are still pending, forgive me) it is believed by LE that Oski also died of the heat. What about his paws were they burnt? If not that doesn't make sense to me. I don't think the condition the family was in that they could have been able to carry Oski. MOO. Oski would have collapsed a long time before if the hike the family is suggested as having done. Its not possible the elevation they climbed and the heat starting to get higher that Oski could continue. There is more to this than what has been concluded by the investigation IMO. Don't get me wrong LE has to work with what they have so its not on their part. So many questions!

BBM
YEP 100%

 

[Karuna]

While I am not surprised by the info released today, I am also disappointed, upset, and extremely sad for this family to have had to experience.

Many may question how they could made the decisions that found them on this trail in this heat, but I think it's also important to realize that many (most?) would likely have succumbed much much earlier on that hike on that day in those conditions than they did. They were a mile & a half from being unappreciated heroes that none of us would have ever have heard of.

RSBM. With respect, like @rahod1 , this doesn't ring true to me. The homage you make to how far they made it, if I understand, is appreciation of their fight to survive. No doubt, at some point, that was very much what they were doing and I am so sad they had to do it and the suffering they no doubt endured. But, the more troubling part, to me, is that they pushed on at all. I so very much wish that they had turned back on their initial descent or abandoned their planned loop to wait out the heat at the river.

 

[sfinkz]

BBM. What's the source for the ill-fitting pack? Was this part of the PC today?

It is my understanding the backpack, very likely the same one as depicted on SM and deleted from the original 6:45 am Sunday timeline, is a baby carrier with 85 oz internal bladder.
Baby carriers are not form-fitting customized backpacks. It is a very oddly-distributed weight hanging off your shoulders rather than on. I do understand this may have been the latest and greatest baby carrier (the Sheriff mentioned CamelBak today) but it is not a backpack. To contain the entire gear of a hiking party in such a contraption is perhaps unusual but I do not know if this was the case, hence my question: Was it confirmed this was the only pack for the family?

 

[Karuna]

The Sherriff said that Oski's test results are unknown or inconclusive but (I could be wrong here maybe they are still pending, forgive me) it is believed by LE that Oski also died of the heat. What about his paws were they burnt? If not that doesn't make sense to me. I don't think the condition the family was in that they could have been able to carry Oski. MOO. Oski would have collapsed a long time before if the hike the family is suggested as having done. Its not possible the elevation they climbed and the heat starting to get higher that Oski could continue.

RSBM. I think this was addressed, albeit indirectly, in the PC. "Based on the condition of Oski's remains and evidence the investigators recovered on scene we believe Oski was also possibly suffering from heat related issues."

 

[Andreee]

And putting a baby at risk in that situation, I cannot fathom. Why take a baby on an 8 mile hike, much less in the blistering heat. JG planned the trip. I’m sure he checked the weather as well. It must have felt like an oven. And being a dog lover, I am just as upset over that. I emotionally can’t deal with this kind of negligence and abuse.

Same. And after all, even their family is asking the question WHY?!

 

[WillieMac]

RSBM. With respect, like @rahod1 , this doesn't ring true to me. The homage you make to how far they made it, if I understand, is appreciation of their fight to survive. No doubt, at some point, that was very much what they were doing and I am so sad they had to do it and the suffering they no doubt endured. But, the more troubling part, to me, is that they pushed on at all. I so very much wish that they had turned back on their initial descent or abandoned their planned loop to wait out the heat at the river.

I understand your view. I also understand though that it might be hard to decide to seek shelter in the river for what would likelybhave needed to be an extended amount of time when you had very limited food resources for you child and dog. Again, it is really only the gift of hindsight that makes me understand how that was really their only answer by the time they found themselves there.

 

[Lilibet]

I respect the range of emotions and reactions that people are experiencing. There's no "right" way to react to something like this, and I understand why some of you feel angry. What follows is not an indirect criticism of anyone who has contributed to this discussion. I just want to share my perspective.

I've spent a lot of time exercising outdoors in extreme conditions. Sometimes I was prepared; sometimes I was not. I was never seriously injured, but there were probably dozens of situations where I was just a mistake or two away (or a few degrees of temperature change away) from finding myself in grave danger. I suspect that's true of many of us who have spent a lot of time exercising outdoors in remote areas. All it would take is one thing to go wrong to turn a tough hike/run into a national news story where people on the internet were questioning my intelligence, character, and sanity.

I know that many of you don't spend a lot of time exercising in the wilderness, but you probably do other risky things without even realizing it. I suspect that many of us--perhaps all of us--do things that we treat as routine but that actually carry a not insubstantial risk of serious injury or death. We all have our blind spots.

Does this mean that we shouldn't question the decisions that Jonathan and Ellen made on that fateful Sunday? Of course not. But I do think we should keep our collective judgment in check. Something like this could happen to any of us.

I wish there was a way for a person to know how many times they have cheated death in one manner or another but may not have even realized it. ...you know, sort of like checking your credit score from time to time - only you run some sort of 'near death experience' report (aka: how lucky I really am report). I am well aware of some instances in my life that I am lucky to have emerged from with my life, but I bet there are other instances where a tiny change of events or decisions on either my part or another's may have been a matter of life or death- but where I never even realized it.

While I am not surprised by the info released today, I am also disappointed, upset, and extremely sad for this family to have had to experience. The thoughts swirling in my head are so very somber yet filled with many questions (likely the same ones that I would guess others have already stated here and continue to hold) - but I will continue to try to find my peace with those questions. (As I have with so many other cases before.) There are times when I just need to step away from these discussions - not to ignore them or pretend they don't exist or have happened, but to ponder them in seclusion and to find the bits from them that would be most useful to try to retain and carry with me in life going forward from here - take a deep breath or 10, and lose myself for a bit in my own kids, dog, cats, family, and just surroundings in general. ...and appreciate all that is good in life. It shouldn't take an event like this to take me to that place, but sometimes it does. For that, and for that reason only, I will appreciate this moment. And I will appreciate that this couple who ended up in the position they were in for whatever reason, were able to complete as much of the hike that they did in the environment and conditions that they were in. I doubt that many others could have gotten as far as they did. In the end, I believe these two were warriors. Strong. Loving. Dedicated to each other & their family. Determined to get thru it together without leaving any one behind.. And just very determined to survive. ...until they simply couldn't. Many may question how they could made the decisions that found them on this trail in this heat, but I think it's also important to realize that many (most?) would likely have succumbed much much earlier on that hike on that day in those conditions than they did. They were a mile & a half from being unappreciated heroes that none of us would have ever have heard of.

Thank you @bpeterson912 and @WillieMac for your thoughtful and kind posts about this tragedy. I’ve been trying to sort out my own feelings about what happened to this lovely couple, their sweet baby and their pup, and although I understand why good people here are angry…I really do!…I just feel incredibly sad that their lives ended, especially in such a horrific way. They weren’t the kind of people we see here on WS who have committed evil acts against someone defenseless. For my own peace of mind, I need to save my anger for those who do deliberate harm and for those who go through life selfishly only caring about themselves.

But IMO these two parents weren’t evil or malicious and obviously loved their daughter and their pup. They were definitely guilty of being unprepared, careless, unwise, even stupid, with maybe some hubris thrown in…and they paid the ultimate price, losing their own lives and killing their child and pet in the process. All for a hike on a hot day…a tragic series of miscalculations at every turn. So, while I get the anger, I’m just incredibly sad that they didn’t escape the consequences of their decisions, as many of us admittedly have. My heart goes out to their families and friends who will forever miss them and never understand how or why this happened to such smart and caring people.

I hope their unnecessary deaths will serve to educate everyone who loves the outdoors and save lives in the process. Many thanks to @RickshawFan and other outdoor experts and amateurs here who have educated all of us about being prepared. And I wish peace of mind to each one of us as we struggle with our very valid swirl of feelings about this heartbreaking tragedy. Hugs!

All MOO with total respect to those who feel differently.

 

[rahod1]

I understand your view. I also understand though that it might be hard to decide to seek shelter in the river for what would likelybhave needed to be an extended amount of time when you had very limited food resources for you child and dog. Again, it is really only the gift of hindsight that makes me understand how that was really their only answer by the time they found themselves there.

They PUT themselves there. There was ample time from the onset to reassess what they were capable of doing and how the infant and pet would respond. Ask yourself what you would have done in this situation with the fate of your infant (and pet in your hands.)

 

[Karuna]

I understand your view. I also understand though that it might be hard to decide to seek shelter in the river for what would likelybhave needed to be an extended amount of time when you had very limited food resources for you child and dog. Again, it is really only the gift of hindsight that makes me understand how that was really their only answer by the time they found themselves there.

@WillieMac Yes, actually I wrote something similar in thread 5 of this case, namely that I could understand why they might have felt the need to MOVE and leave and hike out for the same reasons you suggest (concern about heat, time, food, etc) and even added concern about how their baby was faring instead of staying at the river. However, in light of the PC, I now feel much more troubled by why they ever left to begin with. Some of this is of course hindsight and I do appreciate how much they may not have known about the intense heat experience that appears to be that canyon. But descending some 2000' when temps are mid 70s at 8am, at the end of a week of record triple digit temps, to do an 8 mile hike with a baby and a dog with that amount of water, I just can't fully wrap my head around that being our hindsight alone. There were so many flags that would have been available to them at the outset, at home even (the temps that week, the length of the planned hike), no hindsight needed. So sad.

 

[SophieRose]

They PUT themselves there. There was ample time from the onset to reassess what they were capable of doing and how the infant and pet would respond. Ask yourself what you would have done in this situation with the fate of your infant (and pet in your hands.)

I was thinking if they both couldn't climb up HCOHV then one could have and called for help at the top. But they were so ill-prepared they didn't appear to even have multiple water sources.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Once they were down that hill, there was no good option for retreat. JMHO

RSBM Yes- I'm sure everyone was OK when they got down the hill, but they were in grave danger and apparently didn't realize it. Why did they pass up opportunities to turn back or shelter in place? I wonder what their personalities were like.

 

[Karuna]

Thank you @bpeterson912 and @WillieMac for your thoughtful and kind posts about this tragedy. I’ve been trying to sort out my own feelings about what happened to this lovely couple, their sweet baby and their pup, and although I understand why good people here are angry…I really do!…I just feel incredibly sad that their lives ended, especially in such a horrific way. They weren’t the kind of people we see here on WS who have committed evil acts against someone defenseless. For my own peace of mind, I need to save my anger for those who do deliberate harm and for those who go through life selfishly only caring about themselves.

But IMO these two parents weren’t evil or malicious and obviously loved their daughter and their pup. They were definitely guilty of being unprepared, careless, unwise, even stupid, with maybe some hubris thrown in…and they paid the ultimate price, losing their own lives and killing their child and pet in the process. All for a hike on a hot day…a tragic series of miscalculations at every turn. So, while I get the anger, I’m just incredibly sad that they didn’t escape the consequences of their decisions, as many of us admittedly have. My heart goes out to their families and friends who will forever miss them and never understand how or why this happened to such smart and caring people.

I hope their unnecessary deaths will serve to educate everyone who loves the outdoors and save lives in the process. Many thanks to @RickshawFan and other outdoor experts and amateurs here who have educated all of us about being prepared. And I wish peace of mind to all of us as we struggle with our very valid swirl of feelings about this heartbreaking tragedy. Hugs!

All MOO with total respect to those who feel differently.

@Lilibet Thank you for these words. I relate. I, too, am trying to sort out my feelings. "Our very valid swirl of feelings" feels like a perfect way to describe how this is likely reverberating for so many.

I identify with some anger and appreciate others who have named that. And while I can locate some anger at their decisions, I also feel clear that my anger is not just about that, but can also be a way to orient around something that just feels too hard to take in, a way to channel our feelings, to get fired up - creating distance from our grief, sense of smallness, and the vastness of questions like "why?"

I, too, am incredibly sad they didn't escape the consequences of their decisions. And while I agree with everything you described them being guilty of and all the ways they should have been prepared, I am also humbled by the truth that we don't know what we don't know. Although I know to do some of the things they didn't do on this hike (and not to do ones they did) I have learned a great deal from this case and from these posts especially about heat stroke, extreme heat, and the ten essentials that I didn't previously know and I have definitely made some stupid decisions that, fortunately, have not occurred where the stakes were so very high.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

True...but the bottle had some formula in it....indicating it wasn't used for water.??

And the major constituent of formula is...? I don't see why they couldn't dilute it.