GUILTY CA - Madyson Middleton, 8, Santa Cruz, 26 July 2015 - #3 *Arrest*

[~greeneyedgirl~]

Whitney Houston and her daughter Bobbi ... Wrong thread [emoji5]️


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[swedie]

Together again for eternity.

View attachment 79345

Oops...wrong forum.

 

[human]

Easy to read.

Children who witness violence. Another possible factor in the news report on life for him growing up.

http://www.childwitnesstoviolence.org/facts--myths.html

 

[blue22]

I can only look at it this way: there is no way to PROVE that anything he may have experienced as a child, made him this way. Millions of children have been raised in "troubled homes" and never lured, raped, and murdered a child. Not that society should not continue trying to figure out what can make these people do what they do. But I think that we forget that being born disturbed is also an option in all these other reasons we try to explain away behaviors. Science wants to prove why (and I support that,) but sometimes I think part of the reason we want that...is so society doesn't have to accept the alternative: some people are born capable and prove to be capable of disturbed deeds. Some people will mever have a "reason" why they did such.

Totally JMO.

 

[Mamamerced]

I completely agree with probably everyone else on this thread: a multitude of genetic and environmental factors go into the make-up of any child.
The following was my bible while raising my children. Now RIE principles are my bible with my grandsons. It's all grounded in Respect. And it ain't easy!
I'm sure many of you WSs will recognize this:


http://www.blinn.edu/socialscience/LDThomas/Feldman/Handouts/0801hand.htm

 

[human]

I can only look at it this way: there is no way to PROVE that anything he may have experienced as a child, made him this way. Millions of children have been raised in "troubled homes" and never lured, raped, and murdered a child. Not that society should not continue trying to figure out what can make these people do what they do. But I think that we forget that being born disturbed is also an option in all these other reasons we try to explain away behaviors. Science wants to prove why (and I support that,) but sometimes I think part of the reason we want that...is so society doesn't have to accept the alternative: some people are born capable and prove to be capable of disturbed deeds. Some people will mever have a "reason" why they did such.

Totally JMO.

There is rearch, though. There is research on what are good parental strategies. Why not use them?

 

[human]

I completely agree with probably everyone else on this thread: a multitude of genetic and environmental factors go into the make-up of any child.
The following was my bible while raising my children. Now RIE principles are my bible with my grandsons. It's all grounded in Respect. And it ain't easy!
I'm sure many of you WSs will recognize this:


http://www.blinn.edu/socialscience/LDThomas/Feldman/Handouts/0801hand.htm

Exactly!

 

[gitana1]

because of that case my sons never went to the bathroom alone or had to use the women's w me until they were big.

Brandon Wilson, 20, killed Matthew Cecchi, 7. I remember that case. It happened here in Southern California. The killer was totally insane.

 

[blue22]

There is rearch, though. There is research on what are good parental strategies. Why not use them?

Funny, I don't remember suggesting we shouldn't....???

And there are situations where the parent is a good parent, and the child still does something horrendous.

ETA: Sorry, human...this response was not meant to be condescending. I realize it reads that way.

 

[Mamamerced]

Brandon Wilson, 20, killed Matthew Cecchi, 7. I remember that case. It happened here in Southern California. The killer was totally insane.

Bonkers! And he took a lot of LSD, beginning at a tender age. I think he may have been high on it during the hunt. Wish I could find the video of his police interrogation.

 

[Lilibet]

I can only look at it this way: there is no way to PROVE that anything he may have experienced as a child, made him this way. Millions of children have been raised in "troubled homes" and never lured, raped, and murdered a child. Not that society should not continue trying to figure out what can make these people do what they do. But I think that we forget that being born disturbed is also an option in all these other reasons we try to explain away behaviors. Science wants to prove why (and I support that,) but sometimes I think part of the reason we want that...is so society doesn't have to accept the alternative: some people are born capable and prove to be capable of disturbed deeds. Some people will mever have a "reason" why they did such.

Totally JMO.

BBM

I think you've touched on the reason society is so eager to find someone or something to "blame" even in very complex situations. It's very hard for people to accept that there may be some things that are beyond our control or are unsolvable, especially in humans. But that also applies to weather events, earthquakes, major accidents, etc. It's frightening on a deep level. So we (and scientists or government, etc) look for something that we can "fix" and ensure that the horror won't happen again.

On a fear-based, knee-jerk level many people zero in on and take aim at the easiest target to hold responsible for a tragedy, perhaps missing the broader more complex issues (witch hunt mentality). While we shouldn't stop trying to fix these problems, we also are wise to recognize that some of them may be beyond understanding or fixing right now or ever. I don't mean that in a defeatist sense at all. It just seems realistic to me to be able to live with temporary uncertainty in order to make sure that blame isn't narrowly focused, missing the bigger picture of possible cause and effect. JMO

And bringing it back to AJG, for example, whatever "caused" him to lure, rape and murder Maddy is very likely both the same and different from whatever "caused" Gabe Gaeta to do the same thing to Jenise Wright a year ago. Focusing only or mainly on upbringing just seems simplistic to me. JMO

ETA: Added the word "mainly" to the last sentence.

 

[katydid23]

Funny, I don't remember suggesting we shouldn't....???

And there are situations where the parent is a good parent, and the child still does something horrendous.

I know people who have been raised by HORRID parents, and they have grown up to be happy, well-adjusted people in spite of their abusive childhoods. And I know some wonderful parents, who have done their best to love and care for their children, only to see one or two of them to grow into awful, uncaring sociopaths, or worse. There is more to it than just 'nurture' IMO. I think it can sometimes be genetic a d environmental, coming together in a perfect storm.

I know a lot of people that have endured much worse childhoods than this Awkward teen endured. JMO And none of them have raped and murdered a child.

 

[blue22]

BBM

I think you've touched on the reason society is so eager to find someone or something to "blame" even in very complex situations. It's very hard for people to accept that there may be some things that are beyond our control or are unsolvable, especially in humans. But that also applies to weather events, earthquakes, major accidents, etc. It's frightening on a deep level. So we (and scientists or government, etc) look for something that we can "fix" and ensure that the horror won't happen again.

On a fear-based, knee-jerk level many people zero in on and take aim at the easiest target to hold responsible for a tragedy, perhaps missing the broader more complex issues (witch hunt mentality). While we shouldn't stop trying to fix these problems, we also are wise to recognize that some of them may be beyond understanding or fixing right now or ever. I don't mean that in a defeatist sense at all. It just seems realistic to me to be able to live with temporary uncertainty in order to make sure that blame isn't narrowly focused, missing the bigger picture of possible cause and effect. JMO

And bringing it back to AJG, for example, whatever "caused" him to lure, rape and murder Maddy is very likely both the same and different from whatever "caused" Gabe Gaeta to do the same thing to Jenise Wright a year ago. Focusing only on upbringing just seems simplistic to me. JMO

Thank you. You put this so more clearly than I could! I totally agree.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I can only look at it this way: there is no way to PROVE that anything he may have experienced as a child, made him this way. Millions of children have been raised in "troubled homes" and never lured, raped, and murdered a child. Not that society should not continue trying to figure out what can make these people do what they do. But I think that we forget that being born disturbed is also an option in all these other reasons we try to explain away behaviors. Science wants to prove why (and I support that,) but sometimes I think part of the reason we want that...is so society doesn't have to accept the alternative: some people are born capable and prove to be capable of disturbed deeds. Some people will never have a "reason" why they did such.

Totally JMO.

I absolutely agree with you.

If being abused in childhood was really the main trigger for someone to become abusive, violent or even resorting to murder/rape then we would see this happening countless times per year. It would be an epidemic. Over 6 million children suffer abuse every year. 6 Million! In just ten years time that is 60 million abused children. We have around 14K homicides per year in a country of 320 million.

I am not one to buy into what a criminal says who finds themselves in the criminal justice system. At sentencing the defendant even males and more often females tries to use the abuse excuse trying to lessen their punishment. Or they try to use the abuse excuse in the actual trial. I have seen case after case where a female was said to be abused in childhood and even by the person they murdered. It turned out to be a bald face lie just like Jodi Arias lied through her teeth. She was such a pathetic liar about being abused it came across as ridiculous. She had no clue what abuse is and that's why it came across as a totally lame. But oh yeah, if JA had to fill out a questionnaire or take a survey she would most certainly say she was an abused victim instead of the sociopath she is.

I don't trust anyone who I know has a vested interest to lie. Secondary gain as Prosecutor Juan Martinez called it in the Arias trial. And family members will also lie for the defendant if the defendant is facing LWOP or the death penalty. So I think the stats and research is greatly flawed and given by those who are truly victimizers but want to blame their evil deeds on someone else. Its rather nauseating actually since most of the ones who have truly been abused doesn't ever harm anyone much less become a sadist, pedophile, rapist or murderer.

And mental health professionals are always wanting to connect abuse to why someone becomes a horrible immoral and unlawful person. Its their job to think someone has to be broken even though the defendant may very well have lived a very pampered life instead. And the criminals certainly knows what the doctors want to hear. Lets blame it all on abuse. I have read articles in the past where sociopaths admitted they knew how to manipulate the therapists and tell them what they wanted to hear.

Rapists, pedophiles, and murderers come from all walks of life. Sure there will be some who were abused since they are a part of the overall population at large in our society. So that is just common sense that there will be a percentage of them in the criminal justice system. But no one will ever convince me it was because of abuse done by someone else in the past that made them go on to be a sickening heartless murderer of a totally different person. We have seen horrible murders committed by doctors, lawyers, rabbi, a NASA rocket scientist and everything in between. No profession or lifestyle during childhood is immune. We have become a society filled with excuses. The inmates/defendants would like everyone to believe it is never the fault of the perpetrator and someone else is always to blame.

I truly think a lot of todays murderers have full blown narcissistic traits. I think that is more prevalent nowadays and why conduct defiance disorders are on the rise. I also think society as a whole is breeding more sociopaths than ever before.

There have been many children who were/are homeless. Many, and the vast majority of them never harm a soul. Some have had to live out of a car yet still studied and went on to attend a prestigious college. Imo, it is really a slap in the face of all abuse survivors when abuse is used as the excuse why the defendant raped or murdered an innocent person. And many of these survivors have endured horrific acts for years on end yet become wonderful caring human beings, and great parents also.

I don't think abuse had anything to do with why he brutalized Maddy. I think he watched and they will probably find it on his cell and computer. He wanted to act out the brutality he saw in the videos he watched and of course like most predators he picked someone far weaker than him and someone he knew trusted him. It was such a bitter betrayal to Maddy who I am sure did think he was her friend when all along she really wasn't anything more to him than prey.

IMO

 

[Mamamerced]

BBM

I think you've touched on the reason society is so eager to find someone or something to "blame" even in very complex situations. It's very hard for people to accept that there may be some things that are beyond our control or are unsolvable, especially in humans. But that also applies to weather events, earthquakes, major accidents, etc. It's frightening on a deep level. So we (and scientists or government, etc) look for something that we can "fix" and ensure that the horror won't happen again.

On a fear-based, knee-jerk level many people zero in on and take aim at the easiest target to hold responsible for a tragedy, perhaps missing the broader more complex issues (witch hunt mentality). While we shouldn't stop trying to fix these problems, we also are wise to recognize that some of them may be beyond understanding or fixing right now or ever. I don't mean that in a defeatist sense at all. It just seems realistic to me to be able to live with temporary uncertainty in order to make sure that blame isn't narrowly focused, missing the bigger picture of possible cause and effect. JMO

And bringing it back to AJG, for example, whatever "caused" him to lure, rape and murder Maddy is very likely both the same and different from whatever "caused" Gabe Gaeta to do the same thing to Jenise Wright a year ago. Focusing only on upbringing just seems simplistic to me. JMO

Lilibet, I don't think anyone is focusing only on upbringing, but just that it is a very critical factor. And it's often the Elephant in the Room. There are an infinite number of variables in each criminal case, so, of course, the cause won't be identical. But we must at least consider the family environment as a likely contributing factor.

 

[Mamamerced]

K

I know people who have been raised by HORRID parents, and they have grown up to be happy, well-adjusted people in spite of their abusive childhoods. And I know some wonderful parents, who have done their best to love and care for their children, only to see one or two of them to grow into awful, uncaring sociopaths, or worse. There is more to it than just 'nurture' IMO. I think it can sometimes be genetic a d environmental, coming together in a perfect storm.

I know a lot of people that have endured much worse childhoods than this Awkward teen endured. JMO And none of them have raped and murdered a child.

But, that's just it: we don't know what he endured.

 

[katydid23]

K

But, that's just it: we don't know what he endured.

No, we don't. And I guess we will have to wait until the trial to see what is testified to. But from first blush, what has been reported, does not seem that horrific to me. There might be some horrid secret stuff. Who knows. But nothing that has been reported so far seems that horribly traumatic. JMO

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Many times the horrific events that cause a child to go wrong aren't even KNOWN by the parents. I have a close family friend who "went bad" in her teen years, and has only begun to recover in her 50s, after it was revealed, in her 40s, that she was raped by an uncle at age 11 or so.

 

[Lilibet]

Lilibet, I don't think anyone is focusing only on upbringing, but just that it is a very critical factor. And it's often the Elephant in the Room. There are an infinite number of variables in each criminal case, so, of course, the cause won't be identical. But we must at least consider the family environment as a likely contributing factor.

I shouldn't have used the word "only" in that particular sentence. I will edit it to also read "mainly."

I agree that upbringing is absolutely a critical factor, but it was the main focus for awhile and I believe that is unfair to AJG's mother/family. That's why I've harped on other factors so much. At this point in the conversation the focus has finally broadened to other factors too and a realization that there is just so much that we don't know.

 

[Eloise]

At some point, people make choices. You can't blame everything a person chooses to do on how they were or weren't parented.
Plenty of people parented horribly make wonderful adults. And some people parented brilliantly turn into awful adults. I don't think it should matter, unless someone was essentially kept captive throughout their upbringing and never exposed to the wider world. School, peers, media, culture - plenty of other influences on a person other than parents.
Maybe it goes to mitigating circumstances for sentencing or something, but people's choices are their own. I personally think fifteen is old enough to know right and wrong. I sure as hell knew murder was wrong at fifteen, and I think every single person does. In fact I was only just reading about a study that shows even toddlers have an innate sense of justice and what is right and wrong and fair.