CA - Rebecca Nalepa - suicide or murder? #9

[justice be served]

But why was Bremner attacking the S family older siblings by claiming they were at the scene of maxie's death, and claiming it was a planking accident? And what does that have to do with re-opening RN's death investigation?

Was she trying to implicate those kids in max's accident in some way?

It bothers me as well that the S children need to be brought into this. In fact I can't stand it either. I can't imagine anything but an accident and I don't doubt that if any other story comes out - that it was still a tragic accident. I do think that Rebecca may have told a different story to her family of who was involved than what she told police. IMO that may be where the Zahau family is going with this.

 

[elementry]

That's a very good question. And why did the family tell the media they want a criminal investigation into JS and his family? That's pretty ugly stuff to throw at a grieving family. I'm appalled with such tactics.

JMO

Did they actually make this specific accusation and request? I may have missed that. They did call for a further investigation, and as the Shacknai's are at the epicenter and the periphery of the goings on in this double death, it would be hard to leave them out of a resumed investigation. I thought it was more, "let the chips fall where they may" stance. I do recall RN's sister (also a grieving family member) perhaps rather intemperately stating that she knew who the killer was; there's a strong level of innuendo there. While it was not so wise or justified under the circumstances to throw that line out there, I could understand how she might in her despairing, emotionally wrought state, make that statement. She may have her suspicions, but should let the attorneys do their work going forward and let the evidence speak, that is, if more evidence is allowed into the closed circle of LE's foregone conclusion at this point.

 

[katydid23]

It bothers me as well that the S children need to be brought into this. In fact I can't stand it either. I can't imagine anything but an accident and I don't doubt that if any other story comes out - that it was still a tragic accident. I do think that Rebecca may have told a different story to her family of who was involved than what she told police. IMO that may be where the Zahau family is going with this.

BBM
Maybe, but if so, what does it have to do with RN's death investigation?

It just seems so scummy for Bremner to throw that out there like rotten meat before the bodies are even cold in their graves. And she is so smarmy and pleased with herself when she makes those accusation, it makes me sick.

The Z family could not have found a less ethical, less believable advocate if they tried, imo.

 

[MyBelle]

Maybe. Maybe also goading LE into clarifying some things. It's hard ball;maybe a tactical mistake; maybe a misstatement, purposeful or otherwise. LE has merely assumed things went a certain way and not another; they admitted they don't know precisely what transpired. They painted a theory and then concluded it must be so. So Bremner is floating an alternate assumption? It's known that planking is all the rage among youth today; very possible some of that was going on in the house with whatever undetermined numbers of kids in and out during the summer period. So is it possible MS was playing at this planking thing he'd been witnessing? In the end, he died of an accident is the working premise. A bit moot I suppose what the accident was but rather it happened and he died. Bremner imo was perhaps just making a point that LE's "ironclad" conclusions aren't so ironclad after all. If feathers are ruffled, so be it. Good attorneys are often bellicose bastards, this is no surprise.

LE I seem to recall (might be wrong) has so much as said, or dared, if the Zahau's have a different idea then prove it. Bring the evidence. Which is a bit disingenuous, since LE has controlled the evidence collection and flow. Zahau's are just trying to get to a level playing field at this late point imo (even though LE has unilaterally declared the contest over), and their attorney presumable doing what she thinks effective to aid them.

It makes no sense that Bremner is second guessing LE on Max's death investigation.

I'm making the assumption LE examined the planking idea closely and found the evidence doesn't support planking in any way. The illustration they showed supports the exact opposite of planking, with Max's body propelled outward with enough force to hit the chandelier and into the opposite stair railing.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

:

Even the article cited on naked suicide states that 95 percent of suicides complete are associated with mental illness.

Most suicides by hanging are not naked. Most naked suicides are not outdoors

We do not even know what RN's mental health issues may or may not have been. She had a recent shoplifting arrest, which often indicates mental health issues. And she was going through a divorce and had just moved in with a rich demanding older businessman and taken over responsibility for his home and family, and quit her long time job and just changed her name. ALL OF THESE THINGS are high stress producers. Then add to that a tragic deadly accident in which some are holding her responsible for and the grief that must have come with it. Sounds like a mental health crisis to me.

 

[elementry]

Bremner has inserted herself into Max's death investigation and also implicated his siblings as though they are responsible. What purpose does that accomplish? His death has been ruled an accident.

In one of the media interviews, members of the RN family said they wanted the the JS family investigated. I just think that's pretty explicitly accusing them of criminal misconduct.

JMO

As I said in a recent post, raising a question anywhere in these tied-in investigations (by the same investigators; obviously at this point linked even though LE first said there was no link) is to show there are other theories possible, and that the facts of MS's death are NOT "ironclad", and neither Rebecca's.

As to wanting JS's family included in the investigation: why should they be exempt? does MS's unfortunate demise somehow release them from any further involvement in the case? Don't think so. I still don't see them explicitly accusing the Shacknai's of RN's death. It may be a rough way to go, but the legal system will decide if the Shacknai's must participate in the pursuit of justice and the truth for Rebecca Zahau. If the case is re-opened, All the Shacknei's should at least be questioned and de-briefed. Let the chips fall where they may. A possible murder should not be mooted just because a blameless little boy died.

 

[elementry]

It makes no sense that Bremner is second guessing LE on Max's death investigation.

I'm making the assumption LE examined the planking idea closely and found the evidence doesn't support planking in any way. The illustration they showed supports the exact opposite of planking, with Max's body propelled outward with enough force to hit the chandelier and into the opposite stair railing.

JMO

The lead investigator also said they'll never know exactly what happened since there was no witness. Then he drew a specific conclusion.

 

[time]

I feel fortunate to live in the greater SD area, news reporting was common and often on this case.

I did listen to the 90 minute press conference led by Sherriff Gore. It was thorough and answered most but not all of the questions. Several times, when asked, Gore refused to divulge information of a, personal nature.

I have no idea what the family's specifically asked not to be released. Knowing a family member committed suicide and believe you were not there to help can create feelings of devastation over the event.

I wonder, and don't believe we'll ever know, how critical Jonah and Dina Shacknai were of Rebecca once the accident occurred. It'a highly likely Rebecca was suffering strong feelings of guilt and in turn may have been critisized.

Overwhelmed by feelings, she behaved erratically and impulsively to end her life and quickly.

Naked Suicides ... David I Simon, MD

http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/content/full/36/2/240

I'm not sure everyone knows and it may not make a difference to them but it does to me... that journal and research are geared toward legal aspects of psychiatry and the article discusses rectifying insurance/legal claims against psychiatrists.

There's nothing wrong with researching this, I just think it is written for a particular purpose and audience in mind.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=2dc096c3c462843f&biw=1403&bih=818

 

[HowLoveCanBe]

I began reading this forum at the start of Rebecca's thread. I would like to see the thread names changed to Rebecca Zahau in respect towards her memory.

This is one of the most tragic stories I've come across in my life. I believe that both deaths were tragedies beyond intention. Not all things in life have a direct cause and effect. Unintended consequences arise from our actions all the time.

I think Max was running down the hall with Ocean to his left. As he turned to go down the stairs Ocean continued to run straight and Max tripped over the railing. The scooter was most likely at the foot of the stairs and fell over as Max came tumbling down with the chandelier. Jonah asked that Ocean be boarded up and all the kids were whisked away from Rebecca.

I believe that the message Rebecca painted on the door had to do with Max. She knew she would not be walking out of that room ever again. She painted it with her right hand and also placed her right hand on the door in a moment of contemplation. I don't think it was an accident that she did this in the 'guest' room. I'll get back to that later. She painted the message to strengthen her resolve rather than write something on paper that she could easily throw away.

'She saved him' - I think that she did what she could do after the fall to 'save' Max. The first part of the message was written to Jonah and Dina. They both blamed Rebecca as part of the natural grieving process. This was very hard on her. Not being able to see Max in the hospital was even harder. I think Jonah and Dina made the call to take Max off life-support a decision that Rebecca would have never made due to her religious beliefs.

'Will he save her' - The second part of the message was to Max, to his soul. It has been said many times that she believed she would go to hell if she took her own life. She was asking Max to save her own soul.

The ropes... It's clear to me that Rebecca had experience with ropes. With no disrespect, I think she shared this experience with Jonah in a very intimate way. It's quite possible that she was submissive towards him and they both enjoyed a healthy intimacy this way. This is why she decided to tie herself up the way she did - not to prevent herself from saving herself, or making it seem like a murder - this was a final loving intimate submission to the man she loved. The man that in a fit of rage may have verbally pushed her too far. Who may have told her not to sleep in his bed that night but go to the guest room.

The shirt... I believe that this was Jonah's shirt and that she often slept in it. I think she must have been feeling out of breath and hyperventilating. She wanted to have something of his close to her, but she also felt as if he was choking life from her. She put it in her mouth and bit hard with all the tears, pain, love, fear, and confusion she was experiencing.

Rebecca was a dynamic and romantic young woman. She felt she was an artist. She jumped outside to prove her devotion, love, innocence, and spirit. She did not want to hide from the world. The truth is we are all contradictions and nobody is perfect. This was not about humility or pride. She knew deep inside that her love was greater than the power or importance of this man's public and professional life. Her act was an expression of this love to each of us. In the end Rebecca wanted to say that she had no fear only love - a deeply intimate love. Sadly a love that met the tragedy of a young boy's accidental death and the anger and grief of her lover and his ex-wife.

I know this post is a departure from presenting just the facts. Some might feel that it is charged with emotion. I am writing this as closure for myself. This is what I believe now. If I am wrong and justice needs to be done - I hope all of you continue to find out what really may have happened. I also know that justice is not for men alone to judge. RIP Becky and Maxie.

 

[katydid23]

The lead investigator also said they'll never know exactly what happened since there was no witness. Then he drew a specific conclusion.

But the scenario that Bremner is throwing out there does not fit with the evidence at the scene of the accident. Planking involves laying stiff, and if max had done that he would never had reached the chandelier. He had to be moving fast to go over the barrier and hit the chandelier. So that makes no sense, witness or no witness.

 

[justice be served]

BBM
Maybe, but if so, what does it have to do with RN's death investigation?

It just seems so scummy for Bremner to throw that out there like rotten meat before the bodies are even cold in their graves. And she is so smarmy and pleased with herself when she makes those accusation, it makes me sick.

The Z family could not have found a less ethical, less believable advocate if they tried, imo.

Rebecca may have told her family members, as I said, a different story about how the accident happened than she told police. What that has to do with Rebecca's death investigation is that she may have told the real truth to her family and a cover-up story to the police for protecting one or several of the children. She further may have been asked to tell the untruth to officers by a family member for the children's' protection. She may have quickly gotten tired of being blamed for Max's death and decided to tell the truth. Well she never got a chance to do that because she either decided to commit suicide or she was silenced before she got a chance to tell the truth.

I can't stand her attorney either.

 

[MyBelle]

It bothers me as well that the S children need to be brought into this. In fact I can't stand it either. I can't imagine anything but an accident and I don't doubt that if any other story comes out - that it was still a tragic accident. I do think that Rebecca may have told a different story to her family of who was involved than what she told police. IMO that may be where the Zahau family is going with this.

I agree she may have told a different story to the family or her sister told the story. But that also means RN lied to the cops when she said there were no witnesses and the rest of her story becomes questionable as well. The evidence does not support planking. The sister ended up with deep cuts and I've always found it difficult to believe she received deep cuts from cleaning up. I doubt the Zahau family wants a wrongful death lawsuit filed against the girl, her parents or RN's estate but that could be all they accomplish.

JMO

 

[time]

It bothers me as well that the S children need to be brought into this. In fact I can't stand it either. I can't imagine anything but an accident and I don't doubt that if any other story comes out - that it was still a tragic accident. I do think that Rebecca may have told a different story to her family of who was involved than what she told police. IMO that may be where the Zahau family is going with this.

I can't see why it is so horrible to at least clear up who was at the house on Monday, when and how they left, and in general what transpired. I don't see divulging that as 'not protecting' any children, but when there are two deaths in two days basically what the heck is there to hide and how can that be justified .. and why is this such a big issue to the non-Zahau relatives or those who think this was suicide?

LE is somehow inferring Rebecca's suicide is related to her relationship with some of Jonah's kids, but no one is supposed to question that or what information is off bounds that relates to it? What is the logic or fairness/justice in that! I just don't get it. I think the Zahau family has a right to know these things.

 

[katydid23]

"She didn't have any guilt about Max and in fact she said that to her family."

Said by Bremner on JVM

Really? She did not feel ANY guilt that this child flew off the second floor balcony while she was the adult in charge of him? Maybe it was not her 'fault', but no pangs of guilt?

 

[SunnieRN]

I think it depends upon how much she was swinging when she went over the balcony. I know when we used to rope swing from a big tree over the river so we could jump in, it was really dangerous because if you started swinging when you first latched on you would not be fully over the water. A body can cause a tremendous amount of force when swinging. imoo

Think of a person who is bungee jumping. They usually go a forward fall as LE stated Rebecca did. The swinging starts AFTER they reach the end of the rope. You do not swing back and forth while falling. It is more like a dive if this occurred at LE stated.

Looking at this picture, if the rope ends where he cut it, I am assumng that is where her neck was roughly. IMO, there is a strong possibility her body could have swung back and forth with enough force to hit those supports under the balcony.

I think it would have had to have been cut above her head. Remember how much rope was trailing away from her neck? You also have to realize, with the drag of her body weight, she would have been hanging lower than where the end of the rope is.

Since the rope is so flexible she could have swung into the wall though and slammed her head.

I think Bonepile's demo photo is great. It shows how she also could have come in contact with the prickly tree/high bush too causing some bleeding since it would be contacting naked flesh.

IMO

The side of her head, yes, but not the top of her head. This was a stiff rope, not an elastic rope that would 'bounce her'.

Thanks, but I think there is a difference between believing someone is capable of taking care of a child vs. internal animosity toward that person. JMO

How does DS not being able to be found work into this?

How tall is that person from tip to toe?

I agree, but I don't see any way she would swing that would make her hit the top of her head. JMO

It's definitely a chair. Look here and it's labeled a chair in the diagram. http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-nebr.jpg

Also, item 28 is a plastic bag over item 36 a paint tube.

What was the reason for the plastic bag to be there? How did it get on top of the paint tube?

That is a huge question of mine too.

Steely, I stated in the first or second thread, that I found DS behavior unusualy, if she was uncomfortable with Rebecca being her sons caregiver, that she would be absent, without anyone knowing where she was, or anyone (including LE), being able to contact her.

LE went to her home more than once and could not reach her by phone or on her cell to tell her about MS accident. When I was going through a divorce and divorced from my ex, my daughter and e knew how to reach me for any reason, large or small.

Several posters stated that DS didn't trust Rebecca with MS and didn't want her to watch him. I think the fact that she couldn't be reached, disproves that theory.

I am not saying that she wasn't livid or ready to rip Rebecca a new one, after MS fall, but prior to that I think she trusted Rebecca to supervise him. IMHO only.

I agree the demo is awesome! I don't think there is a chance she hit the top of her head on anything in the fall. I think it happened before the fall off the balcony. There is a lot of slack in the rope in this photo...it was lower than this--perhaps a foot. Look at the photos of the room and you will see how much slack there is in the rope.

Exactly!! Glad you see it the same way I did.

The message as typed in the autopsy was: "She Saved Him Can You Save Her."
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

The message as reported to the media by word of mouth from the sister/ex-husband/attorney Bremner was: "She saved him. Can he save her?"
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/sep/02/dna-led-to-suicide-ruling-in-calif-mansion-death/

(I tend to believe the autopsy report wording of the message).


RZ had four head injuries. I do not believe she would have hit her head four times in different areas of the scalp while rolling off the balcony and/or swinging.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/autopsy-rebecca-zahau-found-gagged-with-t-shirt-in-mouth

The "framed object" taken out of the house was actually the bedroom door wrapped in plastic by LE before removal from the mansion.

This would be odd and some of the injuries are unexplainable by the height, type of fall it was. Something else had to have happened, prior to her death.

I visited a hospital ER and ICU just the other day and my cell phone was blocked at both. No signal. I was told it interferes with their telemetry of ECGs, etc. We don't know who actually phoned and left the message. It may have been from a courtesy phone most ICU's have and been impossible for RN to return the call.

They must have an older type of equipement, as even our tele/icu floors are not interfered with by cell phones or computers.

Thanks,

I haven't heard any info on an alarm system and so I'm assuming there wasn't one. Also, in a time like this a guy like JS probably finds a PR firm worth it, especially when there were domestic calls to the house before, IIRC. There may be other things in the past he doesn't want looked into either. JMO

Hate to say it, but s[in can make anything and everything sound better.

Hubby & I have been visiting a hospital ER + ICU for the past 6 weeks. We are told that we CAN use our cell phones in these areas. The No Cell Phones rule no longer applies. We both get fine service, me on my cheap little Verizon phone, and hubby on his iPhone.

I am sure there may be some icu's where this still applies, but I doubt that Rady's is one of them, as I am sure they are more 'state of the art' than our community hospital.:seeya:

The lawyer says the family are getting all kind of offers from experts wanting to investigate this further. So hopefully family can get to the bottom of it all.

I hope so too and doubt if they have deep pockets, so I am sure they need the help!

"I asked them about a psychological autopsy and the detectives said they thought about it, but decided not to do it," Anne Bremner told FOX 5 News Sunday.

Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Steven Ornish said a forensic or psychological autopsy is standard practice when there is controversy regarding the manner of death in a case.
"A physical autopsy will tell you what the cause of death is, but a psychological autopsy will tell you in more detail whether it was a suicide, what the person's frame of mind was and what they were thinking at the time," said Dr. Ornish. "It really helps to better understand the frame of mind of someone and by better understanding that, one can better understand the cause of death."

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-zahau-forensic-autopsy,0,6597511.story

I thought LE said they were doing a psychological autopsy. Did they consider her conversation with someone six months ago, while finalizing her divorce, the psych autopsy??????

Seems as if this should have been performed prior to making ANY decisions concerning Rebecca's state of mind and what she may have done. Sheesh!!

 

[katydid23]

I can't see why it is so horrible to at least clear up who was at the house on Monday, when and how they left, and in general what transpired. I don't see divulging that as 'not protecting' any children, but when there are two deaths in two days basically what the heck is there to hide and how can that be justified .. and why is this such a big issue to the non-Zahau relatives or those who think this was suicide?

LE is somehow inferring Rebecca's suicide is related to her relationship with some of Jonah's kids, but no one is supposed to question that or what information is off bounds that relates to it? What is the logic or fairness/justice in that! I just don't get it. I think the Zahau family has a right to know these things.

Bremner was implying that the older siblings were involved in Max's accident.
She was slinging mud at Jonah's remaining children. What is the point of that at this time? Is she implying they were responsible somehow? Because otherwise what difference does it make where they were ?

 

[time]

"She didn't have any guilt about Max and in fact she said that to her family."

Said by Bremner on JVM

Really? She did not feel ANY guilt that this child flew off the second floor balcony while she was the adult in charge of him? Maybe it was not her 'fault', but no pangs of guilt?

I honestly don't understand such ill feelings toward Bremner in this case.

It seems obvious to me she could have meant guilt as in that she could have prevented Max's accident or a kind of guilt where she was in a deep depression due to her involvement. You may not like her from another case, but I don't' see any reason to keep attacking her on this case. She seems fairly articulate but even at that may not say things exactly the way she intended.

 

[SunnieRN]

I can't see why it is so horrible to at least clear up who was at the house on Monday, when and how they left, and in general what transpired. I don't see divulging that as 'not protecting' any children, but when there are two deaths in two days basically what the heck is there to hide and how can that be justified .. and why is this such a big issue to the non-Zahau relatives or those who think this was suicide?

LE is somehow inferring Rebecca's suicide is related to her relationship with some of Jonah's kids, but no one is supposed to question that or what information is off bounds that relates to it? What is the logic or fairness/justice in that! I just don't get it. I think the Zahau family has a right to know these things.

Also, how is saying that JS minor child or children were there, equate to saying they are guilty of anything? Sorry, but I don't see where that is even where the statements are going.

 

[SunnieRN]

Bremner was implying that the older siblings were involved in Max's accident.
She was slinging mud at Jonah's remaining children. What is the point of that at this time? Is she implying they were responsible somehow? Because otherwise what difference does it make where they were ?

Wow, I didn't get that accusation at all.

Saying someone is there, is not accusing them of a crime.

 

[katydid23]

I honestly don't understand such ill feelings toward Bremner in this case.

It seems obvious to me she could have meant guilt as in that she could have prevented Max's accident or a kind of guilt where she was in a deep depression due to her involvement. You may not like her from another case, but I don't' see any reason to keep attacking her on this case. She seems fairly articulate but even at that may not say things exactly the way she intended.

Bremner's exact words were that she did not feel ANY guilt. That does not seem odd to you. It seems normal that RN would have no guilt pangs over that tragic death? That makes me pretty angry to be honest.

And 'fairly' articulate is not good enough for a high profile attorney in a potential homicide case that is hitting the airwaves like a tornado.