Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #14

[otto]

Okay. Lots and lots of words, but none that back up the statement made earlier about sociopaths being completely logical...or sociopaths not being illogical. It's a small argument to debate any further, I'm out...

That's right. The clinical description of antisocial personality disorder (includes sociopath) does not include "illogical" as a characteristic of the disorder.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Copied from the timeline:

July 2 Wednesday, sometime after midnite and before morning, a neighbour of the Garlands is awake during the night and sees a light on in the greenhouse at the Garland farm. He says that is unusual.

July 2 Neighbours notice that someone at the Garland property has been burning most of the day (elsewhere it said 2 days?)

Eta- Do we know when the parents of DG left for the camping trip? Maybe they were burning?

I wish we had more info on where/when DG's parents went on holiday. It would help us know how much time DG thought he had and how elaborate he might've gotten with his plan.

 

[deugirtni]

Not to get in the middle here or anything, but... so what? It doesn't include lots of things that may be present in any individual who happens to be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. Mental health is not black and white, cut and dried. I don't think Krystine is arguing the fact that the DSM does not say the word 'illogical', but rather, she is arguing the fact that any given disorder doesn't have to be textbook perfect. There can be co-existing diagnoses. Nevermind the fact that nowhere is it stated that DG has even been diagnosed with this particular disorder. That isn't to say that he isn't suffering from it, nor that he is suffering from it. Just a bunch of people here bantering about ideas and potential theories.Take them or leave them.

That's right. The clinical description of antisocial personality disorder (includes sociopath) does not include "illogical" as a characteristic of the disorder.

 

[news.talk]

Regardless of whether or not he can or cannot be classified as a psychopath or has any form of antisocial personality disorder, the fast remains that those disorders are not considered relevant to being 'Not Criminally Responsible' for the crimes he has even charged with.

If he had say, schizophrenia and could not decipher right from wrong then perhaps it would be relevant.

I maintain that he hasn't got a documented history of ANYTHING that is indicative of 'insanity' that can be used as a defence for these crimes.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

And then, (at the risk of sounding old fashioned, or religious)...sometimes there is just evil.

Agreed, there's a John Steinbeck quote from one of his novels: "some people are born monsters." Totally debatable with the psychology community though lol

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Am I doing this search wrong for the conversion from 180cm to inches? On 2 diff places, I get: 70.8661417 inches, which, is 60 inches is 5 feet (isn't that correct?), then wouldn't that be close to 5'11"? Somehow that has got to be wrong.. he looked much shorter and smaller in the photograph when he got arrested at the airport years ago, and also according to Cherchri's real-life account. I wonder where the people get their info for the wanted posters?

I used a measurement converter on google and got 180cm=5'9. I wonder where the info came from too, maybe when arrested don't they stand in front of the height measurement scale background while getting mug shots photos? Or is that on TV or in the US only?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

I think the best way to understand Antisocial Personality Disorder (includes sociopath) is to research it. There, it is clarified that there are several characteristics that define the sociopathic personality, and stipulated that it is not necessary to have all of the characteristics in order to be classified as a sociopath. It is assumed to be understood that sociopaths may have characteristics that are not part of the description of a sociopath, but that is not relevant to the classification of the sociopath ... only the identified characteristics are relevant. There is not a distinction of "true" sociopath, and other sociopath, the classification is sociopath, or not sociopath. In researching sociopaths, it will also become clear that many sociopaths are not criminals. Some sociopaths commit murder, some don't.

Agreed :dance: So you're of the opinion that DG is nuts (sociopath). Supposing that he is, and he is responsible for these murders, what do you think his motive was? Surely it can't be the patent issue that came to naught anyway? There must be something that motivated him to do this above and beyond that situation...I'm of the opinion it would have to have been bigger than that, or there may have been a series of incidents? Big enough for him to actually murder...when up until now, he has not been violent (that we know of). Why would he do this?

 

[deugirtni]

Did anyone notice the 'coincidence' that as soon as the acreage owners returned to their home from vacation, LE cleared out? Also, I don't recall ever reading anything about LE having a search warrant for the acreage (or for the Parkhill residence for that matter). That leads me to believe that LE (obviously) had the owners' permission to search each of those properties for however long they wanted to... but in the Garlands' case, the stipulation must have been, 'until we get home'. This leads me to wonder... had LE in fact had to obtain a search warrant, like in what seems to be most other murder investigations, how long would the judge have given? I'm wondering.. if it is an open-ended time frame, where the findings did not have to be stated up front, as in cases where LE DOES have to get a search warrant, would they have found what they stated they were looking for, and how long would it have taken? If LE is given authorization to poke and poke and poke around indefinitely (or for a couple of weeks), what would they find that they may not have found otherwise? Is it 'fair' that LE had this particular advantage in this case? It also makes me wonder.. how supportive are the elder Garlands to either side, LE and DG? On the one hand it seemed they were supportive to LE, but only to the point of.. as long as it didn't interfere with their own lives. If they had happened to NOT be on vacation during this time, what would the response have been then? Is it possible they allowed LE all of that time to go through their property because they believe in their son and believed LE would find nothing to support the charges? Does anyone happen to know whether LE ever searched inside the residence?

I wish we had more info on where/when DG's parents went on holiday. It would help us know how much time DG thought he had and how elaborate he might've gotten with his plan.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Regardless of whether or not he can or cannot be classified as a psychopath or has any form of antisocial personality disorder, the fast remains that those disorders are not considered relevant to being 'Not Criminally Responsible' for the crimes he has even charged with.

If he had say, schizophrenia and could not decipher tight from wrong then perhaps it would be relevant.

I maintain that he hasn't got a documented history of ANYTHING that is indicative of 'insanity' that can be used as a defence for these crimes.

Hear hear! I love psychology talk and discussions, so interesting! But you're right, if we get back to basics the real issue at hand is whether or not he's criminally responsible or mentally fit.

My family member who worked in corrections said a lot of criminals really are the same and have the same personality disorders and patterns, they're really not original and aren't hard to figure out. Makes sense, most of the same but the crimes are different.

 

[Deleted member 117120]

http://www.newstalk770.com/2014/08/30/body-found-in-fish-creek-provincial-park/

Do we know for certain the body found is unrelated to this case? The below statement from LE does not give an approx age as was being reported by msm? What sticks out is the comment the body, believed to be male, would indicate difficulty to determine due to condition being deteriorated????

From CPS
A passerby saw what appeared to be a body stuck in some trees in the river in Fish Creek park shortly before 1:00 Saturday afternoon. The area is near Mallard Point in the community of Queensland in the SE.

Shortly after 1:00 the Medical Examiner was called to the scene. The body, believed to be male, has since been removed from the park and taken to the Medical Examiner’s office. Autopsy results may not be released until after the long weekend.

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Regardless of whether or not he can or cannot be classified as a psychopath or has any form of antisocial personality disorder, the fast remains that those disorders are not considered relevant to being 'Not Criminally Responsible' for the crimes he has even charged with.

If he had say, schizophrenia and could not decipher tight from wrong then perhaps it would be relevant.

I maintain that he hasn't got a documented history of ANYTHING that is indicative of 'insanity' that can be used as a defence for these crimes.

True, there may not be a documented 'history'...but the Crown and the Defense are both entitled to request that a Psychiatric Assessment be done should they choose as part of their case presentation. Either to 'rule out' the possibility of an NCR plea, or to discover that there may have been a pre-existing undiagnosed mental disorder/illness which may have affected his thought process/perception/behaviour on the night of the murders.

 

[LoriMcA]

I used a measurement converter on google and got 180cm=5'9. I wonder where the info came from too, maybe when arrested don't they stand in front of the height measurement scale background while getting mug shots photos? Or is that on TV or in the US only?

Actually if you use the google conversion it has 2 ways to show the measurement. If you go cm to feet it comes out as 5.90551. Note: not 5 ft 9 in....but 5.9...as in 9/10's. If you use their conversion in cm to inches it comes out as 180 cm = 70.8661 inches... Which would be 5 ft 10 inches rounded up would be 5 ft 11 in. It had me scratching my head too....I thought right away...5ft 9in...then realized.....ohhhh....9/10 of 12 inches not 9/12...

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Did anyone notice the 'coincidence' that as soon as the acreage owners returned to their home from vacation, LE cleared out? Also, I don't recall ever reading anything about LE having a search warrant for the acreage (or for the Parkhill residence for that matter). That leads me to believe that LE (obviously) had the owners' permission to search each of those properties for however long they wanted to... but in the Garlands' case, the stipulation must have been, 'until we get home'. This leads me to wonder... had LE in fact had to obtain a search warrant, like in what seems to be most other murder investigations, how long would the judge have given? I'm wondering.. if it is an open-ended time frame, where the findings did not have to be stated up front, as in cases where LE DOES have to get a search warrant, would they have found what they stated they were looking for, and how long would it have taken? If LE is given authorization to poke and poke and poke around indefinitely (or for a couple of weeks), what would they find that they may not have found otherwise? Is it 'fair' that LE had this particular advantage in this case? It also makes me wonder.. how supportive are the elder Garlands to either side, LE and DG? On the one hand it seemed they were supportive to LE, but only to the point of.. as long as it didn't interfere with their own lives. If they had happened to NOT be on vacation during this time, what would the response have been then? Is it possible they allowed LE all of that time to go through their property because they believe in their son and believed LE would find nothing to support the charges? Does anyone happen to know whether LE ever searched inside the residence?

Do you think it's possible that DG gave LE permission to go ahead and look?

 

[Tinkerbel1]

Agreed, there's a John Steinbeck quote from one of his novels: "some people are born monsters." Totally debatable with the psychology community though lol

Yup Goes back to my comment regarding some people being "hardwired at birth" to be this way. I've seen children that have been really "off" since babies, doing all kinds of awful things, mutilating animals, etc and have grown up to be adults continuously in trouble with LE, or worse. That's not something their parents taught them I'm sure. JMO. I think that's particularly sad because these people didn't have a chance from day one. JMO

 

[Tinkerbel1]

That's right. The clinical description of antisocial personality disorder (includes sociopath) does not include "illogical" as a characteristic of the disorder.

Lol...well then, I guess that's one good trait they have.

That list you posted has a whoooole bunch of other stuff that's definitely gonna do something to that logic of theirs....I'm guessing logic goes right out the window in most of their situations.

 

[Female]

http://www.newstalk770.com/2014/08/30/body-found-in-fish-creek-provincial-park/

Do we know for certain the body found is unrelated to this case? The below statement from LE does not give an approx age as was being reported by msm? What sticks out is the comment the body, believed to be male, would indicate difficulty to determine due to condition being deteriorated????

From CPS
A passerby saw what appeared to be a body stuck in some trees in the river in Fish Creek park shortly before 1:00 Saturday afternoon. The area is near Mallard Point in the community of Queensland in the SE.

Shortly after 1:00 the Medical Examiner was called to the scene. The body, believed to be male, has since been removed from the park and taken to the Medical Examiner’s office. Autopsy results may not be released until after the long weekend.

No, because they havent released any other info yet. Though if we see nothing in the coming days we can assume suicide or nothing suspicious in nature.

I'm sort of inclined to think a push would be on if it was possibly related despite it being a long weekend, but who knows.

 

[winnnancy]

I think the best way to understand Antisocial Personality Disorder (includes sociopath) is to research it. There, it is clarified that there are several characteristics that define the sociopathic personality, and stipulated that it is not necessary to have all of the characteristics in order to be classified as a sociopath. It is assumed to be understood that sociopaths may have characteristics that are not part of the description of a sociopath, but that is not relevant to the classification of the sociopath ... only the identified characteristics are relevant. There is not a distinction of "true" sociopath, and other sociopath, the classification is sociopath, or not sociopath. In researching sociopaths, it will also become clear that many sociopaths are not criminals. Some sociopaths commit murder, some don't.

There are 2 things that are worth keeping in mind:

Healthy people exhibit traits of any and every psychiatric illness- inconsistently and it doesn't impair their functioning

The " Mental Status exam" is likely a starting point. I believe it is also dependant on a certain degree of cooperation. Psychiatrists do go by the DSM and they have 12 years of education to be able to interpret the subtleties to make a diagnosis.

To clarify, I went to Wikipedia at the following link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_status_examination-

" Judgement refers to " patients capacity to make sound, reasoned and responsible decisions"
Being " logical " or " reasoned" is only one aspect of judgement.

Poor judgement is not specific to any diagnosis

if poor judgement is a symptom of antisocial personality disorder and others; and judgement is comprised of making sound, logical and responsible decisions; then being illogical is symptomatic also.

 

[deugirtni]

Voila, mystery solved!

Actually if you use the google conversion it has 2 ways to show the measurement. If you go cm to feet it comes out as 5.90551. Note: not 5 ft 9 in....but 5.9...as in 9/10's. If you use their conversion in cm to inches it comes out as 180 cm = 70.8661 inches... Which would be 5 ft 10 inches rounded up would be 5 ft 11 in. It had me scratching my head too....I thought right away...5ft 9in...then realized.....ohhhh....9/10 of 12 inches not 9/12...

 

[deugirtni]

I'm thinking not, since wouldn't LE have to cover their butts by getting the actual owners' permission?

Do you think it's possible that DG gave LE permission to go ahead and look?

 

[deugirtni]

Will certainly be interesting. I didn't notice the part, or at least it didn't really stick out for me, about 'believed to be male'.. I wonder if that is because LE didn't confirm that fact for sure to the reporter, or if that fact was unable to be 100% confirmed due to the condition of the body. And.. if the body IS in some way related to thise case, I'm sure a push would be on also, however, I'm sure they would then be going over that body with more than a fine-toothed comb, and more than another body may have been gone over. Are there still any missing men recently? I know the one teen who had been missing was found deceased, and another man missing was found in the river.. are there any others? If this body *was* related to this case however, I'm sure LE would be out in that water full force looking for more bodies though. MSM would likely be all over that, if that were the case.

No, because they havent released any other info yet. Though if we see nothing in the coming days we can assume suicide or nothing suspicious in nature.

I'm sort of inclined to think a push would be on if it was possibly related despite it being a long weekend, but who knows.