Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

[news.talk]

typically septonic is used, but I can't say how long it would take to do flesh, as there is another factor in the digestion process, it's been awhile since working on systems but think of a jar of goose liver (fois de gras), it is packed in a jar that is in turn capped with a layer of fat inside the jar before the lid goes on. it's relevant so please bear with me. the fat stops air from reacting with the liver, thus, stopping the meat from spoiling. well fatted jars can be left open. the digestion in the septic tank is reliant on oxygen, and naturally turning/floating and sinking poo keeps the digestion burbling along. chicken carcasses sink,, so they kind of just burble apart without getting the aerobic (or is it anaerobic?) part that's crucial in the digesting bit.

This reminded me of an old case in Alberta. I found it online and discovered this:

When a body is buried in quicklime which is then slaked with water, only a small degree of superficial ‘burning’ will result, and the intense heat generated by the chemical reaction will simply dry out, or ‘mummify’ a certain amount of the body tissue. When slaking occurs gradually by absorbing the water from the body itself or from the surrounding soil, there will again be partial desiccation (drying out) of the tissues. In both of these instances the effect will be to prevent putrefaction ( something that no murderer wants, especially if trying to dispose of a corpse!) and effectively ‘preserve’ the body against external decomposing agents which would have been at work if quicklime was not used.

Forensic Pathologists came to the conclusion that Sam had been in the Septic Tank for at least 4 months, but could be up to a year, due to the limestone covering, which slowed down the usual bodies dissolution mechanism to decompose naturally.

http://canadianunsolvedcrimes.weebly.com/septic-tank-sam---alberta

Granted this was back in the seventies and more chemicals for septic systems have been developed. I wonder how well bone, teeth and hair are dissolved? Perhaps the bodies were not whole?

 

[news.talk]

Also found this on human proteins, specifically hair in septic systems:

Hair is comprised of tough strings of proteins, somewhat similar to what fingernails are made up of. For a variety of complex reasons, these proteins are not as easily broken down by bacteria as organic waste is. They certainly are not even close to being broken down within the twenty four to forty eight hours they are held in the septic tank (the typical hold time in a septic tank for most septic systems).

As a result, hair survives pretty much intact for many months within the pipes, septic tank and drainfield of a septic system. Hair, in fact, can survive for hundreds of years if the environment is suitable. There are countless accounts of human remains being found in peat bogs that are hundreds of years old and the hair is still intact!

If a septic tank has a filter in the outlet baffle, hair will become trapped and is removed from the system during the periodic maintenance cleanings. If the septic tank has been sized correctly for the household and *there is adequate hold time* for the wastewater, the hair will settle and become part of the sludge layer at the bottom of the septic tank. It is pumped out with the rest of the sludge during the periodic septic tank pumping performed every two or three years. If there is no filter or the hold time is not adequate, the hair is free to flow throughout the system until it eventually reaches the drainfield (if it doesn’t cause a clog on its way there.

http://www.aero-stream.com/hair-causes-septic-malfunction/

I wonder if they found hair or nails in the filter?

 

[stan laurel]

Kind of confusing to me that if LE had enough evidence in July to determine that the three would not be found (assuming they were confident as to why) then why didn't they investigate the septic in July in the same manner? Would they not have had stronger evidence 9 months ago if they had done so, compared to what they will acheive now?

why didn't they look in the tree's for Justin? and I'm not laying blame but I need to say this;

who brings a zodiac to a slough with a hundred horsepower outboard engine? who sends 100's boots to the ground when drones and helicopters could have inspected/photographed the property from above quickly before hand?

years ago while working on the septic system failure, there was another glaring failure and it was best described as urban assumptions in design.

the property - that I worked on - was designed for the city but built on a rock, below a mountain on a partial alluvial fan with a ground shift of half an inch per year. the people who built it had to fudge the urban plans to fit the remote local with it's odd terrain. no fault to the draughtsman, but he did assume other aspects of a human kind as the foundation/terrain.

septic systems and potentially buried old-unused oil tanks (for oil furnaces) might have merely been oversights, not thought about because we make urban assumptions daily in our surroundings.

 

[stan laurel]

This reminded me of an old case in Alberta. I found it online and discovered this:

When a body is buried in quicklime which is then slaked with water, only a small degree of superficial ‘burning’ will result, and the intense heat generated by the chemical reaction will simply dry out, or ‘mummify’ a certain amount of the body tissue. When slaking occurs gradually by absorbing the water from the body itself or from the surrounding soil, there will again be partial desiccation (drying out) of the tissues. In both of these instances the effect will be to prevent putrefaction ( something that no murderer wants, especially if trying to dispose of a corpse!) and effectively ‘preserve’ the body against external decomposing agents which would have been at work if quicklime was not used.

Forensic Pathologists came to the conclusion that Sam had been in the Septic Tank for at least 4 months, but could be up to a year, due to the limestone covering, which slowed down the usual bodies dissolution mechanism to decompose naturally.

http://canadianunsolvedcrimes.weebly.com/septic-tank-sam---alberta

Granted this was back in the seventies and more chemicals for septic systems have been developed. I wonder how well bone, teeth and hair are dissolved? Perhaps the bodies were not whole?

feminine hygiene products, wet wipes and mop-strands are a horror story for septic systems. it takes a lot to burn teeth but coca cola can dissolve teeth. the old lye systems are really used on rural settings where a dead pit might be or a deeper out house and even then it was dusted not smothered.

what are those grass/lawn swells? if the system failed in the line and gassed off? I mean how often would a septic system get used for such purposes and how often do we get to see the results of such a use?

I wonder if a chemical he used reacted with the septic bacteria/septonic and gassed down the line then up through the ground. I could ask a friend who's a prof on civil engineering focused more in various atmospheres in the subterranean. did a micro explosion happen downstream I wonder?

 

[winnnancy]

I'm also wondering if some small/vague info didn't come from within the remand?
If rumor abounds( and I'm sure it would) "Questionable" info from a " questionable" source ?
Or something in the category of " hearsay"?

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, but don't forget that just because LE happen to be looking somewhere, doesn't mean that something happened there, or that something will be found there? It would surely be disturbing as h*ll if it turns out to actually *be* something like that.

I thought the searching seemed very close to the house as well, which seems quite perverse and sick of him to do this. After LE searched vast fields and those ponds and this whole time he might've kept them close to his home (and parents which is so nervy to me). It's been done before though so not really surprising, just disturbing.

 

[deugirtni]

I don't know.. I would love to see a copy of an actual warrant.. because.. you know.. imagine this.. what if police *REALLY* suspected that something (a piece of key evidence) was somewhere, and so they obtained a search warrant.. but when they searched, they couldn't find said something.. and so they keep looking and looking... how long does a homeowner reasonably give them? How much damage also, are police allowed to do to go looking for it,.... for example.. say it's a home.. say it has hardwood flooring.. police can't find anything.. do they rip out all the flooring? toilets? light fixxtures? I'm thinking there must be some kind of limits.. otherwise.. police could just stay and stay and stay and keep looking until a house was a pile of waste for the dump.. meanwhile... if nothing is found.. where do the homeowners stay? I'm thinking, but really have NO idea, that police probably have a good idea on what to find, where.. and I'm thinking they usually probably find it pretty quickly? Can't say, but that's what I'm imagining? So what if they *don't* find it? Just hang out forever, searching?

I have no doubt that LE had a warrant. I have seen warrants that had no time frame specified... Just the scope of the investigation - House, computers, property, out-buildings.... Often they have no idea how long a search will take, so time is not something specified on a warrant. That only comes into play jn the case of case of business for example, that has to shut down to accommodate a search.

For LE to focus such a comprehensive search without a warrant, just land-owners permission, would have been tantamount to throwing out the case before it begins. It is relatively easy to obtain a search warrant, and judging by what we are assuming was their evidence up until that initial search, they would have been stupid not to get one. They expected to find remains in some form... The crux of their case.

 

[deugirtni]

Thank you for your EO (experienced opinion) stan laurel! I am so illiterate when it comes to septic stuff.. I just don't really get anything much about how it works, other than.. the tank itself.. I'm not sure what the beds are for... is it possible.................. that if bodies are put into a septic tank (would the tank for that size of home be large enough to fit an adult human in though?)... and say something was put in there to speed up decomposition... then what? does the stuff then drain out to the septic beds all under the lawn?... and... if so... does it rise up into the grass on top, eventually??

With LE down close up to the grass like that.. they are looking obviously for tiny things that won't be noticed at a normal standing height.. so we're talking tiny, right? So say...... teeth? They're tiny.. but how would the contents of a septic tank come out to be on TOP of the grass, even if over the septic beds? The septic beds aren't top of the grass, they're below the grass, right? So how would the stuff come to be on top? And... why isn't LE doing some digging up of lawn here?

Many pages back, myself and another member got stuck in a debate on the septic system, a synopsis on that debate;
Me: was it pumped?
WS member: why pump it out if it's not needed?
Me: because something like evidence was needed for removal?
WS member: did it need pumping out?
Me: if there was evidence needing being removed?
and so forth.

The point being was, if I call a septic pump truck out, they will without question pump out my tank. Did LE check septic companies to see if this address had a pump out performed?

anyhoo, looking at the pictures, and, the stack/vent pipes on the roof, it is easy to determine the layout of where bathrooms are and the kitchen and likely where the septic tank is and those areas marked off look just like a marker system that I laid out to determine where the field pipes were in relation to the tank. In the picture above it appears to be a four line septic field with an older code holding/digester tank 6 feet out from the house.

When marking a field, one person goes out with a detector gun while another person feeds a camera with a sensor down a (capped when closed) field line inspection/entry point/pipe. As one person feeds the camera thru the pipes, the sensor gun picks up the cameras location above ground.

It was the very first thought I had when I saw that picture above.

Had he flushed or just dumped the remains directly into the tank, he could have shocked the system with enzymes to speed up digestion and/or forced the system (very tricky) into running the field from the tank. By doing the latter and not allowing proper digestion, the field lines can get overwhelmed and not allow natural saturation into the ground, thus causing a drowning of the field and the sad uneventful stoppage of the flow from the septic tank which consequently causes slowed to zero drainage from toilets and showers and sinks.

This is what his parents might have been up against, never having experienced this might have got them thinking.

The only real/natural reason for flow stoppage is grease and I'm sure they had the grease problem thing figured out years ago.

IMEO

In My Experienced Opinion

 

[Lalalacasbah]

If DG went through such work to destroy, he must have been 100% sure his parents would not come home early. Who is that sure?

Even creatures of habit come home early if something unplanned happens. I wonder if DG's parents brought a cell phone camping and if there's phone records of DG 'checking in' on them making sure everything's okay (and sure they aren't returning early). This might help LE with a detailed timeline to align with other evidence.

 

[deugirtni]

I probably posted something about this many moons ago on this thread.. but in the summer.. we were at our neighbour's cottage.. and we had to call the septic people.. so.. husband had to find where it was all located, because neighbour didn't have a clue.. he found it quite quickly.. it is quite interesting, but I'm still not getting it.. anyway, the guy told us the story about how some people, including his relatives, put a dead animal in there to speed up decomp, instead of using the box of stuff that you can buy.. or people will put a piece of 'liver' (I'm talking cow's for sure!!!!) in there..

Anyway.. it is amazing to me how your nose is trained to differentiate between carion and septic.. wow! Incredible! They should have invited you out there to Airdrie in the summer time!!!!!

Also anyway... husband told me last night that our neighbour's septic (which is not that old) was too small to fit a human into.. it is a cottage, only used in the summer, and infrequently at that.. with anywhere from only 1 person, to a few people up there at a time.. it was suspected that perhaps some of the women folk didn't know better than to dispose of some products down the toilet..

it usually just seeps up and stinks to high heaven. Strangely enough, on my way out to fishing on Monday I could smell both carion and septic-weeping simultaneously while heading into Alberta prime cattle lands. Low and behold there were several back hoes, pump trucks building/repairing a septic system,,, my guess is the owners tried the wives tale of forcing the digestion by adding a carcass and ended up with a plugged rotting beast inside a fecal wasteland.

The rolled up pushed up grass could be them trying to access the cap to the tank,, which has a round opening from anywhere between 18 and 24 inches in diameter. If cement, the opening could be square and capped with a cement cap,, if plastic it would be round and threaded like a jar lid.

 

[deugirtni]

I tried to see what you were talking about... and the only thing I could see was one pipe.. which to me... appeared to be perhaps an extension of the eavestrough coming down the front side of the garage at the front.. to take the water to the rear yard... just my guess.. (although.. for a property like that.. I'm not sure.. would they be collecting rainwater? ie lots of people have rainbarrels?)

One more question... What do you suppose the long white pipe along the sides of the house are?

Fixed link:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=72034&d=1427861873

 

[deugirtni]

Just say........... sorry for being so disgusting... bodies were chopped up to smaller, more manageable pieces... wouldn't that be the same as people throwing a piece of liver or small dead animal into their septic, which is supposed to, in itself, speed up the digestion?

typically septonic is used, but I can't say how long it would take to do flesh, as there is another factor in the digestion process, it's been awhile since working on systems but think of a jar of goose liver (fois de gras), it is packed in a jar that is in turn capped with a layer of fat inside the jar before the lid goes on. it's relevant so please bear with me. the fat stops air from reacting with the liver, thus, stopping the meat from spoiling. well fatted jars can be left open. the digestion in the septic tank is reliant on oxygen, and naturally turning/floating and sinking poo keeps the digestion burbling along. chicken carcasses sink,, so they kind of just burble apart without getting the aerobic (or is it anaerobic?) part that's crucial in the digesting bit.

 

[deugirtni]

Wouldn't just the normal course of living in the home cause hair at least (maybe not nails?) to be found in a septic system.. I wonder if hair *was* found in a septic, could it still be tested for DNA even after having been in there for a few months? They'd have to know whose hair exactly... could be years worth of hair in there?

Also found this on human proteins, specifically hair in septic systems:

Hair is comprised of tough strings of proteins, somewhat similar to what fingernails are made up of. For a variety of complex reasons, these proteins are not as easily broken down by bacteria as organic waste is. They certainly are not even close to being broken down within the twenty four to forty eight hours they are held in the septic tank (the typical hold time in a septic tank for most septic systems).

As a result, hair survives pretty much intact for many months within the pipes, septic tank and drainfield of a septic system. Hair, in fact, can survive for hundreds of years if the environment is suitable. There are countless accounts of human remains being found in peat bogs that are hundreds of years old and the hair is still intact!

If a septic tank has a filter in the outlet baffle, hair will become trapped and is removed from the system during the periodic maintenance cleanings. If the septic tank has been sized correctly for the household and *there is adequate hold time* for the wastewater, the hair will settle and become part of the sludge layer at the bottom of the septic tank. It is pumped out with the rest of the sludge during the periodic septic tank pumping performed every two or three years. If there is no filter or the hold time is not adequate, the hair is free to flow throughout the system until it eventually reaches the drainfield (if it doesn’t cause a clog on its way there.

http://www.aero-stream.com/hair-causes-septic-malfunction/

I wonder if they found hair or nails in the filter?

 

[deugirtni]

Where are the grass/lawn swells that you are referring to?

Would a person educated in 'chemicals' also be versed in how chemicals react with septic waste and septic chemicals?

feminine hygiene products, wet wipes and mop-strands are a horror story for septic systems. it takes a lot to burn teeth but coca cola can dissolve teeth. the old lye systems are really used on rural settings where a dead pit might be or a deeper out house and even then it was dusted not smothered.

what are those grass/lawn swells? if the system failed in the line and gassed off? I mean how often would a septic system get used for such purposes and how often do we get to see the results of such a use?

I wonder if a chemical he used reacted with the septic bacteria/septonic and gassed down the line then up through the ground. I could ask a friend who's a prof on civil engineering focused more in various atmospheres in the subterranean. did a micro explosion happen downstream I wonder?

 

[deugirtni]

Excellent point. And also, who is to say that something didn't go wrong, and he was immediately suspected, rather than...... how many days did it take LE to get out there to Airdrie? Who says there wasn't a tiny camera in the home somewhere, wherever crime occurred, that exposied him right away.. or.. a camera outside, a neighbour's home.. that caught his truck in the driveway, license plate in view.. so many things don't always go perfect. And yet this guy, even though he had a few days (How many days?).. left no remains.. I'm pretty sure the Mafia would want to talk to this fellow.

If DG went through such work to destroy, he must have been 100% sure his parents would not come home early. Who is that sure?

Even creatures of habit come home early if something unplanned happens. I wonder if DG's parents brought a cell phone camping and if there's phone records of DG 'checking in' on them making sure everything's okay (and sure they aren't returning early). This might help LE with a detailed timeline to align with other evidence.

 

[deugirtni]

Not to mention... parents are parents.. and they're not stupid.. even when their 'kids' are in their 50s.. I don't think a parent ever forgets that they need to be suspicious if the kid is phoning, wondering.. oh where are you, and when are you heading home.. that kind of thing just perks up the parent-radar, you know?

If DG went through such work to destroy, he must have been 100% sure his parents would not come home early. Who is that sure?

Even creatures of habit come home early if something unplanned happens. I wonder if DG's parents brought a cell phone camping and if there's phone records of DG 'checking in' on them making sure everything's okay (and sure they aren't returning early). This might help LE with a detailed timeline to align with other evidence.

 

[news.talk]

I don't know.. I would love to see a copy of an actual warrant.. because.. you know.. imagine this.. what if police *REALLY* suspected that something (a piece of key evidence) was somewhere, and so they obtained a search warrant.. but when they searched, they couldn't find said something.. and so they keep looking and looking... how long does a homeowner reasonably give them? How much damage also, are police allowed to do to go looking for it,.... for example.. say it's a home.. say it has hardwood flooring.. police can't find anything.. do they rip out all the flooring? toilets? light fixxtures? I'm thinking there must be some kind of limits.. otherwise.. police could just stay and stay and stay and keep looking until a house was a pile of waste for the dump.. meanwhile... if nothing is found.. where do the homeowners stay? I'm thinking, but really have NO idea, that police probably have a good idea on what to find, where.. and I'm thinking they usually probably find it pretty quickly? Can't say, but that's what I'm imagining? So what if they *don't* find it? Just hang out forever, searching?

In a typical ITO - Information to Obtain a Warrant, the scope has to be laid out with justification:

A search warrant can be used not only for collecting evidence supporting a criminal charge but also as an investigative tool for alleged criminal activity.

The items sought need not necessarily afford evidence of the actual commission of the offence under investigation. Rather it "must be something either taken by itself or in relation to other things, that could be reasonably believed to be evidence of the commission of the crime."

Generally, an approving justice should be satified that:

that the items specified exist; that the items specified will be found in the place to be searched at the time of the search; that the offence alleged has been, or will be, (depending on the type of search warrant being sought) committed; that the items specified will afford evidence of the offence alleged; and that the place to be searched is the location where the items will be located.

There are five basic questions that all ITO's must address at a minimum:

What are the grounds for believing the things to be searched for exist? What are the grounds for saying that the things to be searched for are at the place to be searched? What are the grounds for saying the offence has been committed as described? How will the things to be searched for afford evidence of the commission of the offence alleged? What are the grounds for saying that the place to be searched is at the location identified?

The justice of the peace loses jurisdiction where the description is over-broad or too vague such that it essentially allows the officer to conduct a "carte blanche" search for any evidence within the premises.

It has been recommended the following principles be considered:

Peace officers should be given some latitude in describing things as they are still at the investigative stage; the description may be limited to classes of documents if it is sufficiently limited to the crime for which they are alleged to afford evidence; the Information sworn to obtain the Search Warrant must be read together with the Search Warrant; the nature of the offence(s) must be considered; in considering all of the factors, appropriate inferences may be made; *there need not always be a time limit set out with respect to the documents or items sought*; overly broad or vague descriptions can be severed leaving validly described things remaining; each case must be considered on its own facts.

http://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cana..._Practice/Search_and_Seizure/Warrant_Searches

----
As far as damage, it is my understanding, that LE is responsible for any costs associated with damage in executing a Warrant. Of course they have exceptions where they hold the owner responsible, but I have also seen lengthy proceedings from trying to recover costs.

I would also imagine that they obtained a new warrant for this second search. Once they release a scene back to the owners, they cannot come back wothout another warrant. There is legal paperwork involved in releasing the scene that includes damages.

 

[rae100]

I hope justice for Nathan is served. As a Calgarian, this case deeply affected me.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

Not to mention... parents are parents.. and they're not stupid.. even when their 'kids' are in their 50s.. I don't think a parent ever forgets that they need to be suspicious if the kid is phoning, wondering.. oh where are you, and when are you heading home.. that kind of thing just perks up the parent-radar, you know?

I still get my parents to call me if they're doing a long trip somewhere so I know they got there safe and yes - I still do the same as a courtesy! Terrible I know, but we do that in my family.

If either folks have any sort of underlying health conditions, DG might be the good son and give them a call every couple days to check in, it would be nice to know the dynamics here. Could go either way courteous vs red flat something's up.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

I hope justice for Nathan is served. As a Calgarian, this case deeply affected me.

Me too, this story really haunts me. I think because at the very beginning when reading about it in MSM, it almost sounded like there was a tiny chance someone would still be alive, there was some hope there