Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #20

[wendiesan]

Sometimes I do not see the point of keeping a rabid animal alive when there is overwhelming evidence that demonstrates it should be dispatched.

 

[otto]

Blood drops in the kitchen near the foot of the stairs that lead to the top floor, lots of blood on the stairs, and blood on the head of the bed and nightstand in both bedrooms suggests to me that two victims were attacked in their beds, and one was attached on the stairwell. The house has five exits plus a balcony, but there would be no escape from the upstairs bedrooms at the back of the house except down the stairs. Essentially, they were trapped once Garland was at the foot of the stairs.

It still doesn't answer the question of whether Garland broke in, or knocked on the door, but it does suggest that at least one person was out of bed and walking down the stairs. Maybe Alvin heard something, got up to check the house, encountered Garland, retreated to the stairs, and that was the beginning of the end.

The article states that the bedsheets were stripped from the bed, but given that police were looking at duvets at landfill sights, I think it's possible that a duvet from the house was used to drag the victims from the the second floor to the parking pad, where Garland loaded them into the back of his truck. I also continue to believe that the bodies were obscured with a duvet in the back of the truck.

I wonder if the dumbbells with blood were a defence weapon, or whether that was the murder weapon.

Whatever happened, it must have been quick if Nathan and his grandmother were killed in their beds ... kind of suggests that a gun was used.

 

[otto]

Blood Evidence

 

[otto]

Those that are not interested in this crime scene, please scroll on by ...

This seems to be the order in which the murders occurred, and the removal of the bodies from the house. I'm guessing that Garland broke into the house through a basement window, or through the side door. The more I think about it, the more I think the weapon was something that made the murders quick like a gun, or an axe ... something the prevented the victims from even getting out of bed.

 

[Tealgrove]

Now that this information has been released I'm wondering if Nathan was mistaken for Alvin.

As a child, if I stayed over at my grandparents place, I slept with my Grandma in her bed, while Grandpa slept in the guest bedroom.

It's so hard to understand why Nathan would be murdered but, if the murderer went into the master bedroom and either just started swinging or shot at whoever was there he may not have realized that Nathan was even there. Then when he realized, moved onto the other bedroom.

I keep grasping at straws to explain how a child ended up dead in this whole thing and this seems somewhat plausible.

My guess is that JO knows where Nathan would sleep and, of course, the DNA and blood evidence is going to tell the whole horrific story.

My heart breaks for this family,

 

[otto]

Now that this information has been released I'm wondering if Nathan was mistaken for Alvin.

As a child, if I stayed over at my grandparents place, I slept with my Grandma in her bed, while Grandpa slept in the guest bedroom.

It's so hard to understand why Nathan would be murdered but, if the murderer went into the master bedroom and either just started swinging or shot at whoever was there he may not have realized that Nathan was even there. Then when he realized, moved onto the other bedroom.

I keep grasping at straws to explain how a child ended up dead in this whole thing and this seems somewhat plausible.

My guess is that JO knows where Nathan would sleep and, of course, the DNA and blood evidence is going to tell the whole horrific story.

My heart breaks for this family,

Given the locations of blood, it looks like there are three distinct murder locations: on the stairs, guest room, and master bedroom. The victims that died in the master bedroom lost blood at the head of the bed, suggesting to me that they were lying down and perhaps sleeping.

If two victims were in one bed, and the third was in the other bed, who left "“a significant amount of blood” on the stairs and the wall next to them"?

 

[deugirtni]

Given the locations of blood, it looks like there are three distinct murder locations: on the stairs, guest room, and master bedroom. The victims that died in the master bedroom lost blood at the head of the bed, suggesting to me that they were lying down and perhaps sleeping.

If two victims were in one bed, and the third was in the other bed, who left "“a significant amount of blood” on the stairs and the wall next to them"?

Could that significant amount of blood on the stairs and on the wall next to the stairs be a result of dragging bloody bodies down the stairs - for all we know, at the time the bodies were dragged downstairs, they may not have been dead yet, but incapacitated, and bleeding out. Even if already dead by the time the bodies were dragged down the stairs, isn't it possible that blood could get onto the stairs and walls on the way down?

Morbid question: is it easier to drag (say wrapped in a comforter/duvet or something) an incapacitated, still-alive person down a set of stairs, or a freshly-deceased body, or wouldn't it make a difference?

 

[kittymeow]

Now that this information has been released I'm wondering if Nathan was mistaken for Alvin.

As a child, if I stayed over at my grandparents place, I slept with my Grandma in her bed, while Grandpa slept in the guest bedroom.

It's so hard to understand why Nathan would be murdered but, if the murderer went into the master bedroom and either just started swinging or shot at whoever was there he may not have realized that Nathan was even there. Then when he realized, moved onto the other bedroom.

I keep grasping at straws to explain how a child ended up dead in this whole thing and this seems somewhat plausible.

My guess is that JO knows where Nathan would sleep and, of course, the DNA and blood evidence is going to tell the whole horrific story.

My heart breaks for this family,

Definitely not mistaken for Alvin, I think even the publicly revealed evidence makes that clear.

That wouldn't make sense anyway, Alvin was over 6 feet tall and Nathan was a small child, you definitely couldn't mix the two up even in a dark bedroom. Besides the evidence seems to show that Nathan was sleeping in the guest bedroom.

 

[otto]

Could that significant amount of blood on the stairs and on the wall next to the stairs be a result of dragging bloody bodies down the stairs - for all we know, at the time the bodies were dragged downstairs, they may not have been dead yet, but incapacitated, and bleeding out. Even if already dead by the time the bodies were dragged down the stairs, isn't it possible that blood could get onto the stairs and walls on the way down?

Morbid question: is it easier to drag (say wrapped in a comforter/duvet or something) an incapacitated, still-alive person down a set of stairs, or a freshly-deceased body, or wouldn't it make a difference?

There's significant blood on the stairs, and on the wall next to the stairs, but nothing at the top or bottom of the stairs. If the blood was from Garland dragging bodies down the stairs, wouldn't there be a blood trail from the bedrooms to the top of the stairs and down the stairs, not just on the stairs and at the head of both beds?

There are drag marks from the side door to the parking pad, so it sounds like Garland managed to remove the bodies from the house without leaving a trail of blood, but when he got them out of the house, he left a drag tail spanning 8 metres. Maybe he removed them from the house one at a time using the bloody sheets that were left behind, and then didn't use the sheets after he was outside - thinking he could hose down the area.

 

[kittymeow]

There's significant blood on the stairs, and on the wall next to the stairs, but nothing at the top or bottom of the stairs. If the blood was from Garland dragging bodies down the stairs, wouldn't there be a blood trail from the bedrooms to the top of the stairs and down the stairs, not just on the stairs and at the head of both beds?

There are drag marks from the side door to the parking pad, so it sounds like Garland managed to remove the bodies from the house without leaving a trail of blood, but when he got them out of the house, he left a drag tail spanning 8 metres. Maybe he removed them from the house one at a time using the bloody sheets that were left behind, and then didn't use the sheets after he was outside - thinking he could hose down the area.

I wonder if maybe Garland was able to carry Nathan and Kathy from upstairs, but Alvin was too heavy so he dragged him from the stairwell.

 

[otto]

Deugirtni, I just reread the article and I was mistaken. There are drag marks in the house. However, I think that because the officer identifies three distinct "significant" blood locations, plus interior drag marks, the three significant blood locations identify where the three victims bled out.

The officer's description of blood in the house (per Calgary Herald link posted upthread):

Interior:

• droplets of blood at the base of the stairs
• droplets of blood on kitchen floor [kitchen is next to base of stairs]
• significant blood on stairs and one stairwell wall
• blood at the head of bed and nearby nightstand in guest bedroom
• blood at the head of bed and nearby nightstand in master bedroom
• bloody drag marks that went from the upper floor, down the stairs and out a side door

Exterior:

• bloody drag marks on the outside of the house that stopped in front of the attached single garage
• a pool of blood in front of the attached single garage

When this happened I thought that a gun, as murder weapon, seemed most unlikely. Knowing that there are three distinct blood pools (stairwell and pillow area on two beds), I'm inclined to believe that a gun (most likely with a silencer) was used. I can't think of another reason why two victims would have remained in bed if there was noise associated with a prolonged struggle in the stairwell.

I think it would be easier to drag a body tied in a sheet than by pulling arms or legs.

 

[deugirtni]

Deugirtni, I just reread the article and I was mistaken. There are drag marks in the house. However, I think that because the officer identifies three distinct "significant" blood locations, plus interior drag marks, the three significant blood locations identify where the three victims bled out. The officer's description of blood in the house (per Calgary Herald link posted upthread): Interior:

• droplets of blood at the base of the stairs
• droplets of blood on kitchen floor [kitchen is next to base of stairs]
• significant blood on stairs and one stairwell wall
• blood at the head of bed and nearby nightstand in guest bedroom
• blood at the head of bed and nearby nightstand in master bedroom
• bloody drag marks that went from the upper floor, down the stairs and out a side door

Exterior:

• bloody drag marks on the outside of the house that stopped in front of the attached single garage
• a pool of blood in front of the attached single garage

When this happened I thought that a gun, as murder weapon, seemed most unlikely. Knowing that there are three distinct blood pools (stairwell and pillow area on two beds), I'm inclined to believe that a gun (most likely with a silencer) was used. I can't think of another reason why two victims would have remained in bed if there was noise associated with a prolonged struggle in the stairwell. I think it would be easier to drag a body tied in a sheet than by pulling arms or legs.

What type of house was it? Wasn't it a split level home? 4 level? 3 level? Sidesplit? Backsplit? When it is said that "The officer followed bloody drag marks that went from the upper floor, down the stairs and out a side door.", by 'upper floor', do they mean the livingroom/kitchen level, going down the stairs to the basement/garage level? Or do they mean the second floor bedroom area going down to the livingroom/kitchen level? They had previously identified the bedroom level as being 'second floor', in contrast to when they said 'upper floor down the stairs and out a side door'.

 

[otto]

What type of house was it? Wasn't it a split level home? 4 level? 3 level? Sidesplit? Backsplit? When it is said that "The officer followed bloody drag marks that went from the upper floor, down the stairs and out a side door.", by 'upper floor', do they mean the livingroom/kitchen level, going down the stairs to the basement/garage level? Or do they mean the second floor bedroom area going down to the livingroom/kitchen level? They had previously identified the bedroom level as being 'second floor', in contrast to when they said 'upper floor down the stairs and out a side door'.

It's a four level split. Upper floor means the top floor (let's call it level 4). Level 4 has an office at the front of the house. The back has a bathroom and a couple of bedrooms. Level 3 is front entrance, living room, dining room, kitchen, and large back deck. Level 3 is about 4 feet above grade. Level 2 is beneath the bedrooms. There is a family room and sliding door going to the back yard. The single garage is at level 2. That is also the location of the side exit/door. Level 1 is 4 feet below grade. There is a room (perhaps a bedroom), furnace room, electrical, hot water tank. There is also a crawl space.

My understanding is that the bodies were dragged from the bedrooms on level 4, down the stairwell (with the significant blood) to level 3 - where there were blood droplets at the bottom of the stairs and the kitchen, then down the stairs to level 2, out the side door, and to the front of the single garage.

There are three areas of significant blood pooling: one stairwell and two beds, plus drag marks from the upper floor, down two stairwells, out the side door, along 8 metres of sidewalk, ending with another blood pool in front of the single garage.

I can post illustrations of the layout later today that will hopefully clarify the layout ... if you'd like. When I first built the virtual model, there seemed to be a lot of curiosity about the reasons for doing so. Given that it is one of the known crime scenes, and having followed cases like this for a few years, I knew that eventually we would learn more information about this crime scene. I need visuals to understand the scene, but given the early curiosity, I'm not sure if others also need the visuals, or whether other can easily understand the interior from an exterior photo.

 

[otto]

What type of house was it? Wasn't it a split level home? 4 level? 3 level? Sidesplit? Backsplit? When it is said that "The officer followed bloody drag marks that went from the upper floor, down the stairs and out a side door.", by 'upper floor', do they mean the livingroom/kitchen level, going down the stairs to the basement/garage level? Or do they mean the second floor bedroom area going down to the livingroom/kitchen level? They had previously identified the bedroom level as being 'second floor', in contrast to when they said 'upper floor down the stairs and out a side door'.

I wrote quite a detailed description, but that post has been deleted - no idea why information about house layout would be deleted.
There are photos of the house on google that provide the answers to your question. Good luck.

 

[Slebby]

I have never believed a gun was used. If it had been, how to account for the bloody dumbbell? I suspect the death was by bludgeoning.
IMHO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[otto]

I have never believed a gun was used. If it had been, how to account for the bloody dumbbell? I suspect the death was by bludgeoning.
IMHO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There was a dumbbell on the floor in the family room. Perhaps it was the weapon, and perhaps blood was transferred onto the dumbbell when the bodies were dragged out of the house.

It seems that one of the victims was attacked and killed on the stairs. Is it possible to murder someone with a dumbbell on a stairwell, not disturb two other occupants with the struggle, and then kill the other two occupants as they lay in bed ... with a dumbbell? I'm having a hard time believing that.

Perhaps one of the victims heard a noise, picked up a dumbbell as a defensive weapon, and that's why there is blood on a dumbbell.

This photo is from kijiji, but the link no longer works. It is one of a series of photos that were posted during the garage sale.

 

[Sillybilly]

There was a dumbbell on the floor in the family room. Perhaps it was the weapon, and perhaps blood was transferred onto the dumbbell when the bodies were dragged out of the house.

<rsbm>

IIRC, the linked article I read stated that the affidavit indicated there were 2 dumbbells in the garage (not the family room) ... one of which had blood on it.

Based on everything else I've read on it, the dumbbells in the garage left me puzzled.

ETA:

from:
http://calgaryherald.com/news/crime...conclude-missing-boy-grandparents-likely-dead

"Inside the garage Cst. Matthes observed two dumbbells in front of the parked vehicle and noted that one of the dumbbells appeared to have blood on it.&#8221;

 

[otto]

<rsbm>

IIRC, the linked article I read stated that the affidavit indicated there were 2 dumbbells in the garage (not the family room) ... one of which had blood on it.

Based on everything else I've read on it, the dumbbells in the garage left me puzzled.

It's an odd place to find bloody dumbbells, as the garage does not seem to be where the victims were attacked. This photo was taken in the garage, so perhaps Garland attempted to clean up in the garage?

“Inside the garage, Cst. Matthes observed two dumbbells in front of the parked vehicle and noted that one of the dumbbells appeared to have blood on it.”

Friday, July 3; page A3
Calgary Herald

 

[winnnancy]

I'm guessing it would make little difference.... An unconscious person as well as an immediately dead one would both be flaccid, " dead" weight.

 

[kittymeow]

Based on the evidence recently revealed, with all the blood and the dumbbell, I would simply guess that the dumbbell is the murder weapon. JMO based on the public evidence available.

Gunshots create blood... blunt force trauma creates even more blood. Poor JO walking into that scene I have followed this case since the start. I visited Garland's residence when LE and the media storm was there around this time last July, and I posted about it and the photos here on websleuths. I attended some of the preliminary hearing for Garland. I obviously felt very moved and concerned about all of this, but I never cried. Not until yesterday when suddenly I was reading some articles and I saw a photo of Nathan and suddenly started bawling.... it is so ****ing awful. No words.