CANADA Canada - Audrey Gleave, 73, Ancaster ON, 30 Dec 2010 #5

[SideKick]

I didn't hear him say about the years they would have had together and that Spring is 'their' time.. I only read it on the article.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Agree with the posts just above re PK talking too much (out of nervousness??) after the Memorial.

Also, I was upset with the sentence: "Fortunately, A had to work that day.....". What does this mean? You're happy your wife didn't have to see that a woman had possibly slipped on the ice? (Remember, PK said that was what he thought at first had happened to AG). This is Canada - we see people slipping on the ice quite a bit from December - March! Was he trying to say that fortunately his wife didn't have to see a dead body? But remember, PK at first didn't think the crime scene was too gruesome as the seasoned police officers thought!

The "fortunately" sentence is indeed bothersome.

More questions:
- did the new Mrs. K take a polygraph?
- did the other K family members take polygraphs?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

I didn't hear him say about the years they would have had together and that Spring is 'their' time.. I only read it on the article.

I didn't hear it either but it does exist in some of the transcripts. He did say it!

---------------

ETA: I've been thinking now about something roseofsharon mentioned - I'd very much like to hear the 911 call.

To the best of my knowledge, no one (LE, etc) has said anything about the call. Except for PK who placed the call.
He was told to return to the body to be certain AG was dead. This makes me wonder - did PK tell 911 that, at first, it looks like someone had fallen on slippery ice. Then did he say something like - oh and she also looks dead?

Many, many questions here.............:twocents:

 

[roseofsharon]

After PK made the 911 call, followed the dispatcher's instructions to check for a pulse, confirm (as far as PK knew) that AG was deceased and that authorities were on their way, there would have been at least one minute (I would think) of opportunity to make another call, while sitting on the trunk of his car in AG's driveway.

I know the first person I would be calling would have been my husband.

Did PK make a call to ATK to let her know he found AG deceased that morning or did he wait for her to finish work that day and tell her over supper??

A question for PK, should he ever return to the forum, how did you know with absolute certainty, the perp(s) were not hiding on the property or inside AG's home and did you tell LE that AG had guard dogs when they arrived at the scene.

imo

One more question for PK: Did you see ice formation anywhere on the garage floor before calling 911?

 

[Canadian4]

I have always found it strange that PK sat on his car waiting for 911 to get there. He must have nerves of steel. I would be pacing back and forth or locking myself into my car, freaking out, and paranoid that the perp could still be there. Even if he did believe it was an accident at first, she was still his friend and she was dead.

 

[Woodland]

I find all the questions regarding PK's demeanor upon finding AG deceased in her garage to be valid and warranted. I would run like a rabbit if I found someone lying blood - dried or not. I would not sit like deer in headlights.

Also, as a woman, if a 911 operator told me or insisted I go back and check for a pulse after unexpectedly finding someone lying in blood with ripped pants and a sexual component to this persons death - I would hang-up or answer with nfw and then hang up, lock myself in my vehicle and maybe wait for an emergency response vehicle - or drive off and come back when I felt it safe. What would I be doing wrong? Ok, man vs woman - I don't know.

I also agree PK talked too much as well as choked on his own words at AG's funeral while the new Mrs PK said nada, both before and after. She didn't look like she was in disbelief - wide eyed, bewildered etc. Neither did PK or LV. The most LV had to say was, it was 'unconscionable' how her friend AG died. I can't see me finding words to describe this or talking to the media for that fact - I would be devastated.

 

[Woodland]

I find all the questions regarding PK's demeanor upon finding AG deceased in her garage to be valid and warranted. I would run like a rabbit if I found someone lying blood - dried or not. I would not sit like deer in headlights.

Also, as a woman, if a 911 operator told me or insisted I go back and check for a pulse after unexpectedly finding someone lying in blood with ripped pants and a sexual component to this persons death - I would hang-up or answer with nfw and then hang up, lock myself in my vehicle and maybe wait for an emergency response vehicle - or drive off and come back when I felt it safe. What would I be doing wrong? Ok, man vs woman - I don't know.

I also agree PK talked too much as well as choked on his own words at AG's funeral while the new Mrs PK said nada, both before and after. She didn't look like she was in disbelief - wide eyed, bewildered etc. Neither did PK or LV. The most LV had to say was, it was 'unconscionable' how her friend AG died. I can't see me finding words to describe this or talking to the media for that fact - I would be devastated.

 

[roseofsharon]

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a body language expert on the video of PK and AK.

 

[roseofsharon]

I find all the questions regarding PK's demeanor upon finding AG deceased in her garage to be valid and warranted. I would run like a rabbit if I found someone lying blood - dried or not. I would not sit like deer in headlights.

Also, as a woman, if a 911 operator told me or insisted I go back and check for a pulse after unexpectedly finding someone lying in blood with ripped pants and a sexual component to this persons death - I would hang-up or answer with nfw and then hang up, lock myself in my vehicle and maybe wait for an emergency response vehicle - or drive off and come back when I felt it safe. What would I be doing wrong? Ok, man vs woman - I don't know.

I also agree PK talked too much as well as choked on his own words at AG's funeral while the new Mrs PK said nada, both before and after. She didn't look like she was in disbelief - wide eyed, bewildered etc. Neither did PK or LV. The most LV had to say was, it was 'unconscionable' how her friend AG died. I can't see me finding words to describe this or talking to the media for that fact - I would be devastated.

So the 911 operator, through information she was receiving from PK, assumed an accident had occurred. From what I remember, the dispatcher insisted PK go back to the body and check for a pulse. Was PK wearing winter gloves and did he take them off to check for a pulse.

Yet, from the description from LE, it was a horrific murder scene, one of the worst murder scenes Hrab had seen during his years in LE, in which case, had 911 dispatch been given the description of the scene, as LE described it, the direction from 911 would have been quite different -- do not touch the body or anything else -- do not contaminate the scene.

The fact that something could be so horrific, but not in the opinion of the person discovering the body, doesn't make sense.

IMO

 

[Woodland]

I agree roseofsharon - the 911 operator was acting on information received by PK.

Blood, ripped pants and any other visible oddity would have told me to think and react differently to an employer or a friend lying on their garage floor - the only thing that would have kept me there was if I had given birth to the person lying on the floor. One would not necessarily flee if it was one of their cubs.

 

[Sillybilly]

So the 911 operator, through information she was receiving from PK, assumed an accident had occurred. From what I remember, the dispatcher insisted PK go back to the body and check for a pulse. Was PK wearing winter gloves and did he take them off to check for a pulse.

Yet, from the description from LE, it was a horrific murder scene, one of the worst murder scenes Hrab had seen during his years in LE, in which case, had 911 dispatch been given the description of the scene, as LE described it, the direction from 911 would have been quite different -- do not touch the body or anything else -- do not contaminate the scene.

The fact that something could be so horrific, but not in the opinion of the person discovering the body, doesn't make sense.

IMO

<bbm>

Yeah ... difficult to understand how someone could mistake a vicious murder with a "sexual component" (that PK indicated was visually apparent) with someone having possibly slipped on some ice.

However, to give the benefit of the doubt here, it is possible that accident is what flashed through PK's mind when he initially raised the door and saw AG from a bit of a distance. By the time he called 911, he may have conveyed that AG appeared to have been attacked. Our understanding of the specifics could only be clarified through knowing the content of the 911 call, and we don't know what was said.

I do question how someone can sit a few feet away from an obviously murdered woman, not knowing of 1 or 5 murderous individuals could still be in the house.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

As far as I know, when a person (male or female) encounters a dead/murdered body, one of the things 911 asks is "Are you in any danger?". Then they tell you that police and medical have been dispatched. It seems odd to me now that 911 would ask a civilian to 'make sure' the person is truly dead. That's what police and medical are rushing to the scene to determine.

:twocents:

 

[TracyLynnS]

What kind of winter coat was AG wearing? Would it have been long enough to cover the ripped pants, preventing PK from seeing the extent of the attack or was that aspect immediately obvious to the police when they arrived?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

What kind of winter coat was AG wearing? Would it have been long enough to cover the ripped pants, preventing PK from seeing the extent of the attack or was that aspect immediately obvious to the police when they arrived?

To the best of my recollection, we were never told about AG's coat. Just "winter coat".

 

[dotr]

http://www.680news.com/news/local/a...n-connection-with-weston-finch-sexual-assault
TORONTO, Ont. - Toronto police are asking for your help as they investigate a sexual assault.

Investigators said a 57-year-old woman was sexually assaulted by three men near Weston Road and Finch Avenue West in the late-afternoon of Jan. 2.

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Speaking of the winter coat AG was wearing - I forget, were we told about the coat from PK or from LE? Or maybe from both?

Thanks.............

----------------

ETA: And where was the cake? Did PK drop it onto the garage floor out of shock? Or did he smash it onto the garage floor to make it look like a state of shock? Does LE have the cake and the cake pan/plate?

Questions...........

 

[TracyLynnS]

Speaking of the winter coat AG was wearing - I forget, were we told about the coat from PK or from LE? Or maybe from both?

I've only read the 4 part article by Jon Wells, so more information about the coat could be in a different article and I missed it.

In part II the author writes the following (BBM and names changed to initials):

On the morning of Dec. 30, PK said, he drove with his wife, AK, from their apartment in west Hamilton to Quatrefoil, the restaurant where she worked. After dropping her off, he headed to Audrey's.

He turned his silver 2002 Hyundai Accent off Indian Trail into the driveway, past the small pond on the right and larger one on the left, and parked on the far side as he always did. He was bringing her some of her favourite cake. It was about 11 a.m.

He did not go to Audrey's front door. He always entered through the garage. He walked to the twin automatic garage doors outside.

He punched in the code on the keypad. The door rose. The Camaro was parked in its usual spot, both its doors closed.

That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back.

Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case.

She wore her winter coat. Her comfortable stretch pants were ripped.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

LINk - http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

He punched in the code on the keypad. The door rose. The Camaro was parked in its usual spot, both its doors closed.

That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back.

Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case.

She wore her winter coat. Her comfortable stretch pants were ripped.

He went outside and called 911 on his cell. The person on the other end asked him to confirm she was dead. He returned to the garage, knelt down and felt for a pulse.

Then he went outside, sat on the bumper of his car, and waited.

Police spoke of the brutality of the murder, that it had been a stabbing. She had also been beaten. From what Phil saw, or remembered, it was not a gruesome scene.



The parts which I've underlined make no sense to me.

Would 911 ask a civilian to "confirm she was dead"? And what about the difference in the way LE saw the body ("gruesome") and the way PK saw it ("it was NOT a gruesome scene").

:twocents:

 

[roseofsharon]

LINk - http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/594717--audrey-s-story-continues

He punched in the code on the keypad. The door rose. The Camaro was parked in its usual spot, both its doors closed.

That's when he saw her, he said, on the garage floor, lying on her back.

Had Audrey slipped and fallen on some ice, he wondered? Up close, he saw that was not the case.

She wore her winter coat. Her comfortable stretch pants were ripped.

He went outside and called 911 on his cell. The person on the other end asked him to confirm she was dead. He returned to the garage, knelt down and felt for a pulse.

Then he went outside, sat on the bumper of his car, and waited.

Police spoke of the brutality of the murder, that it had been a stabbing. She had also been beaten. From what Phil saw, or remembered, it was not a gruesome scene.



The parts which I've underlined make no sense to me.

Would 911 ask a civilian to "confirm she was dead"? And what about the difference in the way LE saw the body ("gruesome") and the way PK saw it ("it was NOT a gruesome scene").

:twocents:

Paraphrasing: PK did not feel the scene was all that gruesome!!!???

When you call 911, they ask you if you want -- police, fire ambulance?

Sometimes, all three will show up, however, depending on how the body and scene were described to the 911 dispatcher, and perhaps thinking it may have been cardiac arrest, 911 would have guided PK through CPR, etc. 911 would have asked the age of the person and maybe thinking it was a heart attack, would have given instructions to PK over the phone until help arrived.

So, when PK checked for a pulse for the 911 operator, was it at that point he discerned it was not an accident.

When PK opened the garage door and saw AG on the floor, did he call out in a loud voice, go over to her, get down to ear level and call her over and over, try to wake her, check for a pulse. IMO, if not, then it didn't look like an accident when the garage door was raised.

If 911 had been told I just arrived at my friend's house and she looks deceased and it looks like she was harmed, no way would 911 have asked PK to check for a pulse -- on the contrary, they would have said don't touch anything and get out of harms way immediately.

Just IMO

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

Quoting from roseofsharon's post:

If 911 had been told I just arrived at my friend's house and she looks deceased and it looks like she was harmed, no way would 911 have asked PK to check for a pulse -- on the contrary, they would have said don't touch anything and get out of harms way immediately.


Absolutely true. The 911 people know how serious it can be when someone messes with a crime scene.

I'm hoping that LE is reviewing the 911 call. If 911 really told PK to do that - well, then heads should roll at the 911 call centre!

:twocents: