Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[Tortoise]

Greenspan made a comment about the entrances to the home (most recent pc) but I can't remember what it was.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Greenspan made a comment about the entrances to the home (most recent pc) but I can't remember what it was.

There are 9 entrances to the home.

Greenspan:

He also accused police of failing to “comprehensively” examine locks in the house and not properly assess all points of entry. Police initially said there were no signs of forced entry at the home.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/beta.ct.../en/national/canada/2018/10/26/1_4150522.html

 

[Satchie]

Greenspan made a comment about the entrances to the home (most recent pc) but I can't remember what it was.

IIRC he alleged there was some way the perp(s) could have entered the home, that LE should have discovered immediately.

IMO he wasn't making the comment in order to update the public, but to score a point against police. He was disputing the initial police statement that there were no signs of forced entry and no suspect being sought, insisting that if police had been competent they would have recognized this unstated access as a possible entry point. Greenspan did not use the word 'forced', though, just entry.

 

[andreww]

I'm not thinking so much about entry as about exit. Why would a murderer possibly want to lock the house and the lock box? I could buy the fact that someone may have either waited for someone to return home and ambush them, or simply knock on the door and barge their way in, but it just wouldn't make any sense for them, in the midst of what was going on, to hunt down a key so they could lock up when they left.

 

[MistyWaters]

IIRC he alleged there was some way the perp(s) could have entered the home, that LE should have discovered immediately.

IMO he wasn't making the comment in order to update the public, but to score a point against police. He was disputing the initial police statement that there were no signs of forced entry and no suspect being sought, insisting that if police had been competent they would have recognized this unstated access as a possible entry point. Greenspan did not use the word 'forced', though, just entry.

Greenspan first spoke of possible non-forced entry points in this article last Jan 10th. But notice how he manages to twist LE statement regarding no indication of forced entry into no entry whatsoever? That “no forced entry” statement was made by LE the same day the bodies were discovered, definitely not enough time for anyone to have investigated the possibility of non-forced entries including access through the lockbox. Greenspan has certainly been around the block a time or two which is why I don’t think his criticism of LE is sincere. It reminds me of a huff-and-puff ploy, by using the media to take the opportunity of addressing a comment that was never made. Defence lawyers are experts in the tactic.

“.....There are 100 possibilities of how one enters a home without evidence of forced entry,” family lawyer Brian Greenspan said Tuesday.

But for Toronto Police to originally suggest on Dec. 15 that there was no sign of forced entry into the Shermans’ Old Colony Rd. home was irresponsible, he said.

“Original photographs of the exterior of the scene (showed) a real-estate lock box which are notoriously easy to open. Open it, go to Canadian Tire and get the key made, return the key to the lock box and you have a key to the house.”

In other words, just because there may not have been any evidence showing somebody broke into the home — where the Shermans were found hanged — it doesn’t rule out an intruder. The Shermans’ deaths have been ruled a suspicious death by Toronto Police, which has its homicide squad leading the investigation. ....”
WARMINGTON: Someone could have entered Shermans’ home, lawyer says

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not thinking so much about entry as about exit. Why would a murderer possibly want to lock the house and the lock box? I could buy the fact that someone may have either waited for someone to return home and ambush them, or simply knock on the door and barge their way in, but it just wouldn't make any sense for them, in the midst of what was going on, to hunt down a key so they could lock up when they left.

There could be a garage opening & closing button on the inside of the garage. Most of them give enough time for a person to duck out before the garage door closes. Or maybe Barry's garage opener was missing from his car and that is what they were searching the drains and roof for.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not thinking so much about entry as about exit. Why would a murderer possibly want to lock the house and the lock box? I could buy the fact that someone may have either waited for someone to return home and ambush them, or simply knock on the door and barge their way in, but it just wouldn't make any sense for them, in the midst of what was going on, to hunt down a key so they could lock up when they left.

It murder ever logical?

 

[dotr]

How easy would it have been to slip into one of the cars, Honey's car for example- would she be aware if somebody hid in the backseat or trunk? imo.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I'm not thinking so much about entry as about exit. Why would a murderer possibly want to lock the house and the lock box? I could buy the fact that someone may have either waited for someone to return home and ambush them, or simply knock on the door and barge their way in, but it just wouldn't make any sense for them, in the midst of what was going on, to hunt down a key so they could lock up when they left.

Some alarms sound after a certain period of time when a door or window is unlocked.

ETA: I’d think the killer would like to quietly skip away, not with possibly an alarm sounding within minutes of leaving. I think he walked away from the scene, no car.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

FWIW After our discussions about the Shermans and restraining by coats:

A man made a citizens arrest of a violent woman on a NYC subway. Notice her coat before being restrained:



And her coat while being restrained:



Story:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.dai...ay-rider-speaks-attacked-Brooklyn-lawyer.html

 

[Satchie]

Some alarms sound after a certain period of time when a door or window is unlocked.

ETA: I’d think the killer would like to quietly skip away, not with possibly an alarm sounding within minutes of leaving. I think he walked away from the scene, no car.

I'm confident it's been stated in the media, there was no security system on the home. No alarms, no cameras. Hard to believe. I think police were very shocked.

I wonder if the attacker(s) knew this, and one reason for the attack was because the house might sell and any new place they lived in would have security.

 

[Satchie]

I'm not thinking so much about entry as about exit. Why would a murderer possibly want to lock the house and the lock box? I could buy the fact that someone may have either waited for someone to return home and ambush them, or simply knock on the door and barge their way in, but it just wouldn't make any sense for them, in the midst of what was going on, to hunt down a key so they could lock up when they left.

If they wanted it to look like murder-suicide.

Not necessarily relevant, but there's a whole genre of fiction called locked room mysteries, where it appears impossible that anyone could have entered. The idea is it's one way a perp tries to baffle police.

This could easily have been staged as a robbery gone wrong. Deliberately break a window, make it appear the house was ransacked and the burglars caught. There a psychological element behind it.

 

[andreww]

If they wanted it to look like murder-suicide.

Not necessarily relevant, but there's a whole genre of fiction called locked room mysteries, where it appears impossible that anyone could have entered. The idea is it's one way a perp tries to baffle police.

This could easily have been staged as a robbery gone wrong. Deliberately break a window, make it appear the house was ransacked and the burglars caught. There a psychological element behind it.

If they wanted it to look like a murder suicide, why restrain their arms? Why not force Barry to type out a note on the laptop? Just doesn't seem to make sense.

 

[andreww]

I'm confident it's been stated in the media, there was no security system on the home. No alarms, no cameras. Hard to believe. I think police were very shocked.

I wonder if the attacker(s) knew this, and one reason for the attack was because the house might sell and any new place they lived in would have security.

I highly doubt that they have no security system, in fact I've heard the opposite.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

If they wanted it to look like a murder suicide, why restrain their arms? Why not force Barry to type out a note on the laptop? Just doesn't seem to make sense.

Maybe he just killed them the way he wanted to. We’re just interpreting it wrong.

 

[dotr]

rbbm.
The Window of Opportunity: How Criminals Get Inside Your House | The Forensic Outreach Library
"It is said that no matter how secure something is, it is rarely, if ever, impregnable. From the Wild West-style baddies that tunnel under a bank to burglars that furtively creep in when a door is ajar, there is almost an infinite variety of ways for criminals to get in unwanted places."
"Tin cans on the roof or something more sinister
The final category here in our forced entry section encompasses every other way a thief could force access to your dwelling. Don’t worry about locking or shutting your first floor windows? Well you should, because thieves can and often do drag your wheelie bin to the side of your kitchen, climb onto your flat roof, and gain access that way.

Other ways burglars enter using less obvious methods include the removal of roof tiles, attacking masonry from a secluded spot with a hammer, chisel or industrial tools, or even digging elaborate tunnels! Determined thieves have even been known to dismantle chimneys to gain access to attic spaces or the body of houses."
"Remember: the single most common MO for domestic burglary remains the sneak in, where no force at all is used."

Wondering if HS ever commented that she thought she was being stalked?
Could the perp have been hiding in the house for awhile, were they hiding in the house somewhere when LE arrived?
speculation. imo.
No sign of forcible entry…does that mean a crime couldn’t have been committed?
"If you do a search over the Internet for murder cases that have had no evidence of forced entry, you will find many cases. There are also many, many cases of home thefts, with no sign of forced entry. So ask yourself this…if a victim of an active felony stalking case (Morgan) is found dead, under suspicious circumstances, so an autopsy is ordered, BUT the sheriffs say they did not see any evidence of forced entry, even after many attempts that had been made to unlock our key-coded front door – does that mean it is impossible that Morgan was murdered? No! What a crock…

Here is another horrific murder that happened years ago in Colorado. It is still unsolved. There was no forcible entry into their home either, as well as a few other cases that law enforcement believe are connected to this same case. They believe it was a possible serial murderer. Unsolved: The Bennett family murders

Here is another story…Ex-boyfriend hiding in the attic stalking his victim in her South Carolina home. She “felt” someone was there, but her children thought she was delusional. She wasn’t – her intuition was notifying her loud and clear. Her stalker had been living in her attic for approximately 2 weeks. "http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…/woman-finds-ex-boyfriend-li…

 

[Lexiintoronto]

2 cents. I canceled the alarm service for my late parents when I sold their home.

Even with no service and not set, I still tripped a window alarm. My dog also barked and set off the glass-break alarm when my niece showed her a hamster.

Both times, the old alarm company had to tell me how to stop the alarm. They no longer were notified of the alarms on their side, but the house was wired.

The Shermans had an installed alarm system- there was a deactivated camera in the pool room. I’d argue you could still trip the alarm system, set or not.

 

[MistyWaters]

If they wanted it to look like a murder suicide, why restrain their arms? Why not force Barry to type out a note on the laptop? Just doesn't seem to make sense.

Why on earth would a victim would ever agree to write a suicide note, hand written or typed on a laptop? What would that hypothetical scenario look like - “if you write or type a suicide note I won’t kill you”??? Anyone held hostage would know the minute a note was mentioned there’d be no chance they’d be walking away alive so there’d be absolutely no reason for them to comply, let alone knowingly assist in the fabrication of a suicide death scene.

Not to rule out the possibility that the killer typed a note....

 

[MistyWaters]

I highly doubt that they have no security system, in fact I've heard the opposite.

Who’s the source that you heard this from?

 

[Satchie]

I highly doubt that they have no security system, in fact I've heard the opposite.

"Investigators have found no security cameras inside or outside the home."
Retired Toronto detective hired to ensure 'no stone left unturned' in Sherman deaths investigation | CBC News

There were definitely no cameras. Frank magazine said there was a security system but Barry didn't use it.

What Greenspan (Spelling corrected; name variations not allowed) said was that Toronto police had not initially "examined the locks" which later revealed 'the point of entry' into the home. Who knows what he means, could simply mean a door or window was left unlocked, as far as I can tell.

See 14:50 at