Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[ldlager]

Three things that continue to confuse me:
I’m no expert, but if the bodies had been hanging in that moist damp pool area for say 36 hours wouldn’t there be a fairly pronounced smell in the house, or certainly in the basement at least? Not to get too graphic or gross, but why didn’t anyone like the cleaners or the realtor notice the smell?

Something else has been bothering me- when a realtor does a showing of a house what’s the first thing they consistently do? They run around the house turning on all the lights, opening blinds, etc. to make the place seem brighter. If they don’t have time before the showing they run ahead of the clients and do this. So why didn’t the Sherman’s realtor do this, and discover the bodies first?

Finally, I STILL don’t understand why it took 45 mins to call 911 after the bodies were discovered, and I don’t understand why the realtor called Gottlieb (their boss ) in Florida instead of immediately calling 911. And I don’t understand why Gottlieb made other calls before 911 was eventually called.

 

[dotr]

Thought-provoking post; wish I had written it.

I'm still working the Egg-Scraper after posting dead-end angles yesterday.

Posters here who have followed the case for a long time deserve better than clutter.

I acted in haste, posted perfect waste. There's no need to rush-to-post here. Lesson learned.

No dead-end angles, no waste and no harm re-visiting angles either, glad that you are posting, one never knows when a eureka moment might happen, if not now they may prove pivotal - later!

 

[dotr]

Three things that continue to confuse me:
I’m no expert, but if the bodies had been hanging in that moist damp pool area for say 36 hours wouldn’t there be a fairly pronounced smell in the house, or certainly in the basement at least? Not to get too graphic or gross, but why didn’t anyone like the cleaners or the realtor notice the smell?

Something else has been bothering me- when a realtor does a showing of a house what’s the first thing they consistently do? They run around the house turning on all the lights, opening blinds, etc. to make the place seem brighter. If they don’t have time before the showing they run ahead of the clients and do this. So why didn’t the Sherman’s realtor do this, and discover the bodies first?

Finally, I STILL don’t understand why it took 45 mins to call 911 after the bodies were discovered, and I don’t understand why the realtor called Gottlieb (their boss ) in Florida instead of immediately calling 911. And I don’t understand why Gottlieb made other calls before 911 was eventually called.

imo, speculation.
Maybe at first sight it looked like a m/s and because the Shermans are essentially celebrities, calling others in that circle before the media got wind of it, seemed prudent?
Have previously wondered if the perps had hoped the bodies would not be found too quickly so that there would be an unmistakable scent.

 

[JDG]

Three things that continue to confuse me:
I’m no expert, but if the bodies had been hanging in that moist damp pool area for say 36 hours wouldn’t there be a fairly pronounced smell in the house, or certainly in the basement at least? Not to get too graphic or gross, but why didn’t anyone like the cleaners or the realtor notice the smell?

Something else has been bothering me- when a realtor does a showing of a house what’s the first thing they consistently do? They run around the house turning on all the lights, opening blinds, etc. to make the place seem brighter. If they don’t have time before the showing they run ahead of the clients and do this. So why didn’t the Sherman’s realtor do this, and discover the bodies first?

Finally, I STILL don’t understand why it took 45 mins to call 911 after the bodies were discovered, and I don’t understand why the realtor called Gottlieb (their boss ) in Florida instead of immediately calling 911. And I don’t understand why Gottlieb made other calls before 911 was eventually called.

The smell of the chlorine might have masked the decomposition smells.
The moisture would have helped speed up the decomp. but the chlorine was a 'masking agent' I'd think.

 

[MistyWaters]

As reported by CBC -

“The agent, who was working for the prospective buyers and not the Shermans, has requested CBC News not identify him due to concerns for his safety.”


“.....On that cool winter day last December, the agent recalled arriving at the Sherman home on Old Colony Road — an affluent neighbourhood in north Toronto — with his clients, before their scheduled viewing appointment.

The mansion was listed at $6.7 million.

The agent said a person cleaning the home let them in and allowed them to wait inside. A short time later, an agent representing the Shermans arrived

They began touring the 12,000-square-foot mansion.

After starting on the main floor, they walked upstairs to see more of the massive home. The last part of the tour involved the basement pool area.

"My clients weren't really interested in the pool," recalled the agent.

Looking through a large glass door they could see two bodies "on the steps leading to the pool" several metres away.

"What's with these rich people ... who does this?" he recalled thinking. The agent and his clients did not enter the pool area to take a closer look.

The agent says they thought they had stumbled across some kind of bizarre Halloween display or a joke.

"Fake murders," is how he initially described it.

Not long after they left the home, it's believed the agent representing the Shermans called 911 to report the find....”
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News

 

[MistyWaters]

The smell of the chlorine might have masked the decomposition smells.
The moisture would have helped speed up the decomp. but the chlorine was a 'masking agent' I'd think.

Pool rooms are often well sealed to prevent excess humidity from circulating throughout other areas.

 

[ldlager]

As reported by CBC -

“The agent, who was working for the prospective buyers and not the Shermans, has requested CBC News not identify him due to concerns for his safety.”


“.....On that cool winter day last December, the agent recalled arriving at the Sherman home on Old Colony Road — an affluent neighbourhood in north Toronto — with his clients, before their scheduled viewing appointment.

The mansion was listed at $6.7 million.

The agent said a person cleaning the home let them in and allowed them to wait inside. A short time later, an agent representing the Shermans arrived

They began touring the 12,000-square-foot mansion.

After starting on the main floor, they walked upstairs to see more of the massive home. The last part of the tour involved the basement pool area.

"My clients weren't really interested in the pool," recalled the agent.

Looking through a large glass door they could see two bodies "on the steps leading to the pool" several metres away.

"What's with these rich people ... who does this?" he recalled thinking. The agent and his clients did not enter the pool area to take a closer look.

The agent says they thought they had stumbled across some kind of bizarre Halloween display or a joke.

"Fake murders," is how he initially described it.

Not long after they left the home, it's believed the agent representing the Shermans called 911 to report the find....”
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News

Thanks Misty, I think we now know with some reasonable confidence, based on other articles and info that has been subsequently published that this report is inaccurate in at least 3 important (IMO) respects:
1) the housekeeper evidently called the police, not the agent
2) the agent instead called Gottlieb in Florida, not the police or 911
3) the call to the police/911 took place approx 45 mins after the discovery of the bodies. Again, this seems ridiculous to me, and leads me to wonder why the delay? And who else was contacted and knew about the crime scene in the 45 mins? JMO

 

[William_60]

Thanks Misty, I think we now know with some reasonable confidence, based on other articles and info that has been subsequently published that this report is inaccurate in at least 3 important (IMO) respects:
1) the housekeeper evidently called the police, not the agent
2) the agent instead called Gottlieb in Florida, not the police or 911
3) the call to the police/911 took place approx 45 mins after the discovery of the bodies. Again, this seems ridiculous to me, and leads me to wonder why the delay? And who else was contacted and knew about the crime scene in the 45 mins? JMO

Were the kids local or away vacationing?

Is this known?

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks Misty, I think we now know with some reasonable confidence, based on other articles and info that has been subsequently published that this report is inaccurate in at least 3 important (IMO) respects:
1) the housekeeper evidently called the police, not the agent
2) the agent instead called Gottlieb in Florida, not the police or 911
3) the call to the police/911 took place approx 45 mins after the discovery of the bodies. Again, this seems ridiculous to me, and leads me to wonder why the delay? And who else was contacted and knew about the crime scene in the 45 mins? JMO

The Star article differs from the agents version because they all didn’t arrive together.

“At 10:30 a.m., two real estate agents and a couple interested in purchasing the house arrived.”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[ldlager]

Were the kids local or away vacationing?

Is this known?

Some live abroad, some live in Toronto from what I have read/heard.

 

[William_60]

Some live abroad, some live in Toronto from what I have read/heard.

Thanks, ldlager.

Was hesitant to ask, fearing it was old ground.

Happy and holidays to You and Yours.

 

[ldlager]

Thanks, ldlager.

Was hesitant to ask, fearing it was old ground.

Happy and holidays to You and Yours.

To you as well. Never be hesitant to ask, we all can learn from new and varied posters here!

 

[William_60]

To you as well. Never be hesitant to ask, we all can learn from new and varied posters here!

Happy and...Safe holidays, ldlager.
Geez, on my typo game today...terrible.

* * *

Happy and Safe Holidays, to everyone here.

And very best wishes for The New Year.

 

[deugirtni]

The smell of the chlorine might have masked the decomposition smells.
The moisture would have helped speed up the decomp. but the chlorine was a 'masking agent' I'd think.

I would imagine the combination might make it even worse.

 

[deugirtni]

Happy and...Safe holidays, ldlager.
Geez, on my typo game today...terrible.

* * *

Happy and Safe Holidays, to everyone here.

And very best wishes for The New Year.

Merry Christmas to you and everyone here.
Don't worry about your typos, questions, revisiting old news, or suggesting potential theories.. we all come to the threads at different times. Glad to have you here.

 

[deugirtni]

I would imagine the combination might make it even worse.

Speaking of this morbid topic..... I'm not sure how long it takes in the first place, let alone with humidity, presumably heat, and perhaps toxic chemicals to add to the mix. How long would it take a body to take on the odor that we so often hear about from those who are familiar with it, and with those added factors, does anyone know? I am assuming that as MistyWaters noted, the glassed off, presumably sealed pool area may have contained whatever odor was present by that time?

 

[JDG]

Speaking of this morbid topic..... I'm not sure how long it takes in the first place, let alone with humidity, presumably heat, and perhaps toxic chemicals to add to the mix. How long would it take a body to take on the odor that we so often hear about from those who are familiar with it, and with those added factors, does anyone know? I am assuming that as MistyWaters noted, the glassed off, presumably sealed pool area may have contained whatever odor was present by that time?

2-3 days Lots of variables, humidity being one of them, temperature another.

 

[JDG]

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[deugirtni]

Oops I was in the middle of writing a new post when my browser decided to crash and update.. if anyone knows how to prevent this from happening without my permission, please lend your thoughts?
--
I want to know why the realty lawn sign said the home was listed with Judi Gottlieb of Forest Hill Real Estate, while the MLS listing, open house ad, facebook postings, etc., were listed with Elise Stern with Harvey Kalles Real Estate. Usually if there is a property colisted, it will name both agents/brokerages on the MLS listing, and there might be two signs. Gottlieb was in Florida, so I can get that if she was planning on being there for an extended time, she might wish to co-list with another sales rep, however one might imagine that it might be one within her own brokerage, and in any case, it might be shown as co-listed with TREB on the MLS listing. In MSM the agent representing the Shermans on site the day the bodies were found, was said to have been Gottlieb's 'assistant'.

"The couple was last seen alive on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017. Their bodies were discovered the following Friday morning by Sherman family real estate agent Elise Stern, who was showing prospective buyers and their agent the home on Old Colony Rd."
www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/10/31/toronto-police-obtain-nine-new-search-warrants-in-sherman-murder-investigation.html

Billionaire Couple Found Dead in Toronto Mansion

 

[ldlager]

Oops I was in the middle of writing a new post when my browser decided to crash and update.. if anyone knows how to prevent this from happening without my permission, please lend your thoughts?
--
I want to know why the realty lawn sign said the home was listed with Judi Gottlieb of Forest Hill Real Estate, while the MLS listing, open house ad, facebook postings, etc., were listed with Elise Stern with Harvey Kalles Real Estate. Usually if there is a property colisted, it will name both agents/brokerages on the MLS listing, and there might be two signs. Gottlieb was in Florida, so I can get that if she was planning on being there for an extended time, she might wish to co-list with another sales rep, however one might imagine that it might be one within her own brokerage, and in any case, it might be shown as co-listed with TREB on the MLS listing. In MSM the agent representing the Shermans on site the day the bodies were found, was said to have been Gottlieb's 'assistant'.

"The couple was last seen alive on the evening of Wednesday, Dec. 13, 2017. Their bodies were discovered the following Friday morning by Sherman family real estate agent Elise Stern, who was showing prospective buyers and their agent the home on Old Colony Rd."
www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/10/31/toronto-police-obtain-nine-new-search-warrants-in-sherman-murder-investigation.html

Billionaire Couple Found Dead in Toronto Mansion
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I don’t know why there were differing agents. I seem to recall that there was some indication that they had changed agents. I think it’s fairly certain that Stern didn’t work in the same brokerage as Gottlieb, so your question is a good one.
However, I do believe this article is not accurate. I recall from previous postings and articles that were posted there, and info that I received from a Toronto agent friend of mine that The Sherman agent that was showing the house was a male agent, not Stern herself. The male agent worked for Gottlieb. The buyers agent was also a male, according to msm reports.