Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[deugirtni]

Absolutely.. and to get ahold of H's (probably) sister.. then for probably the sister to get in touch with the four kids.. or one of the 4, and then that one to get ahold of the other 3.. and get confirmation that all of them are now informed.. so ... go ahead and call it in now. It wasn't like there was urgency since I'm quite certain there was no doubt the bodies had been dead for some time, so enough time to make sure all immediate relatives were informed. If the realtor had just been a realtor and not also a friend, it may have gone differently.
And of course, the kids would also want to know exact details, which explains their need for quick representation, when they could see (in the press) that something was amiss with how things were being portrayed to the public by the police..... for whatever reason.

 

[casesensitive]

"...She turned and ushered the other agent and the clients back, making an excuse, saying this part of the home was off limits at the moment.”

I am amazed that anyone could be so clear headed and under control, mere seconds after seeing two dead bodies hanging by their necks from a railing. The first thing I would have done is let out an involuntary gasp or blurt out something like "OMG"!

My first thought was that the realtor was a savvy professional and instinctively went into "damage control". It's obvious that two dead bodies could jeopardize the sale of the house and severely impact on the selling price. After that, by then taking the time to make phone call(s) instead of calling 911, suggests to me that the Sherman's reputation was a top priority. It also suggests (imo) that the realtor's impression was that this was a domestic M/S, and therefore, there was no urgent need to call police immediately. The realtor actually backed away from being more involved by finally asking the maid to call police. I believe that there would have been a different reaction if it was apparent, or even a bit questionable, that a double murder had taken place.

Any murder scene should generate a sense of urgency to call police, regardless of when it happened, and any desire to notify relatives. moo

ETA last sentence.

 

[ldlager]

This whole confusion.... seems to sort out some things, at least for me.

I've always thought/suspected that the realtor (I am assuming it was Elise and that she was somehow working with Gottlieb on the listing, possibly because both women were friends of H's), called Gottlieb (in FL), when she discovered the bodies... to talk about.. something like, 'you won't BELIEVE this.. blah blah, what should we do.. before calling police, because it'll turn into a circus at that point'.. 'we should tell the family first, so they don't have to hear it from police', etc etc..

So IF that happened... it is VERY possible that, of course, the realtor and/or family member would want all 4 of the kids to be notified before letting the circus start.. what would be worse than hearing this news through either police or media?

THAT exercise would very easily explain that 45 minute time delay in contacting police, which we've all been curious about.

Also.. IF (presumably) Elise spoke directly with one or more of the kids to explain all she had come across/seen with her own eyes, then maybe from THAT conversation, is where the family was getting their immediate validation that this was an obvious hit, as opposed to their dad going ballistic, which they already knew he wouldn't have done.

I believe JS said at some point (the memorial service?) that the kids had waited ... how long??? to receive 'official' notice from police.. which.. not sure if it even came?? If it did, it was hours and hours later..

And THEN .. what do they hear on the news?? Practically one of the first public announcements from police that they hear, is police, alluding to a murder/suicide... the opposite of what was described to them by the person who saw the bodies, ON the news, TO the world.. and no wonder they were pissed.. IF they had spoken to the realtor who found them, and found out how the bodies were positioned, and the amount of blood, and whatever other information,.. they had inside info (which we as the public still don't know all the details of, as of yet), and they knew very well it wasn't a murder/suicide, etc.. no wonder they got legal representation SO early.

It had always been said that the realtor on site had called Gottlieb... but I guess I had never followed that through in my mind, to think that of course Gottlieb (and/or Elise) then would have contacted someone in the Sherman family (yes, probably H's sister).. I believe there were connections there.. not blood connections, but friend/acquaintance connections.

Imo not calling the police immediately is negligence, and should be an offence under the criminal code. What if Barry or honey wasn’t dead yet? First responders could have been there quickly and possibly helped. Instead they take it upon themselves to play god, to call around to relatives? The police are trained to notify next of kin, Realtors aren’t!!!!! Plus, delaying resulted in potentially further degradation of the crime scene, either through the passage of time, or if someone went down there to look at the bodies. I’m sorry, what they did was WRONG based on what we know.

 

[deugirtni]

If I were the family, I would have appreciated having been called by the realtor, who don't forget, was also a family friend for many years, instead of allowing me (the children of B&H) to be informed by police. In fact, I would have been pissed if the realtor had done otherwise.
I envision that this scene with all these 4 people happens.. the listing representative ushers the 3 out.. then yells for the housekeeper.. and gardener/whatever, and they go down to see what the hay... it would have been obvious, imho, that the bodies would be bloated and discolored, blood on the floor congealed, and who knows what else by then. Sometimes it's obvious that it's just too late for life-saving measures.
I'm not sure there is a requirement for people to call police when happening upon bodies... but even so, I'm pretty sure there's no requirement for them to contact them first, before contacting the next of kin, when we're talking about not only realtors, but friends.

 

[deugirtni]

.... My first thought was that the realtor was a savvy professional and instinctively went into "damage control". It's obvious that two dead bodies could jeopardize the sale of the house and severely impact on the selling price. After that, by then taking the time to make phone call(s) instead of calling 911, suggests to me that the Sherman's reputation was a top priority. It also suggests (imo) that the realtor's impression was that this was a domestic M/S, and therefore, there was no urgent need to call police immediately. The realtor actually backed away from being more involved by finally asking the maid to call police. I believe that there would have been a different reaction if it was apparent, or even a bit questionable, that a double murder had taken place.

Any murder scene should generate a sense of urgency to call police, regardless of when it happened, and any desire to notify relatives. moo

ETA last sentence.

If you listed your home with a long-time family friend... and this happened to you.. wouldn't you appreciate the friend-realtor notifying your 4 adult children, before the police? I don't think it would be hard to imagine that the media would be hot on the news of all kinds of police, ambulance and fire vehicles going to a very exclusive neighborhood, so it would be known that the media circus would begin imminently after notifying police.
I think more than saving reputation, that it was more about being humane to the adult kids, and H's sister, who was also likely good friends with the realtor(s).
As far as the housekeeper calling 911 instead of the realtor, I am thinking that both of them were frantically making calls. Realtor may have gotten held up in discussing details of the crimescene with one of them, so housekeeper contacted police while she was doing that.
Imagine if all of the kids weren't reached ahead of media, and one was out and about, and happened to see it on the news while in a retail store or something? They were stating the address I believe, or at least the street, etc., even if not the names right away.

 

[JDG]

If I were the family, I would have appreciated having been called by the realtor, who don't forget, was also a family friend for many years, instead of allowing me (the children of B&H) to be informed by police. In fact, I would have been pissed if the realtor had done otherwise.
I envision that this scene with all these 4 people happens.. the listing representative ushers the 3 out.. then yells for the housekeeper.. and gardener/whatever, and they go down to see what the hay... it would have been obvious, imho, that the bodies would be bloated and discolored, blood on the floor congealed, and who knows what else by then. Sometimes it's obvious that it's just too late for life-saving measures.
I'm not sure there is a requirement for people to call police when happening upon bodies... but even so, I'm pretty sure there's no requirement for them to contact them first, before contacting the next of kin, when we're talking about not only realtors, but friends.

Who says they called relatives? Relatives of whom?? Surely not the Shermans.
So, they find dead bodies and become gossip gals??

I agree that its a crime in itself. If you come across bodies, you call 911.
I'll have to disagree that its not an emergency, it most certainly would be to me!

 

[JDG]

If you listed your home with a long-time family friend... and this happened to you.. wouldn't you appreciate the friend-realtor notifying your 4 adult children, before the police? I don't think it would be hard to imagine that the media would be hot on the news of all kinds of police, ambulance and fire vehicles going to a very exclusive neighborhood, so it would be known that the media circus would begin imminently after notifying police.
I think more than saving reputation, that it was more about being humane to the adult kids, and H's sister, who was also likely good friends with the realtor(s).
As far as the housekeeper calling 911 instead of the realtor, I am thinking that both of them were frantically making calls. Realtor may have gotten held up in discussing details of the crimescene with one of them, so housekeeper contacted police while she was doing that.
Imagine if all of the kids weren't reached ahead of media, and one was out and about, and happened to see it on the news while in a retail store or something? They were stating the address I believe, or at least the street, etc., even if not the names right away.

The Sherman children did NOT get phone calls from anyone, they found out from the news coverage. Where is all this *phone call* stuff coming from???

 

[deugirtni]

The Sherman children did NOT get phone calls from anyone, they found out from the news coverage. Where is all this *phone call* stuff coming from???

Didn't someone who apparently knows one of the realtors say that a relative had been called? Wouldn't it make sense for a family friend to notify family? How do you know the S children did NOT get phone calls from anyone and that they found out from news coverage.. this is unthinkable to me.

 

[JDG]

Didn't someone who apparently knows one of the realtors say that a relative had been called? Wouldn't it make sense for a family friend to notify family? How do you know the S children did NOT get phone calls from anyone and that they found out from news coverage.. this is unthinkable to me.

the son was speaking about it at the funeral. they didnt get any notification from TPS, they only heard it from the tv/media and then, THEY called a relative who was golfing in Florida. That person called a politician who confirmed it due to the Health Ministers tweet that was removed.

 

[casesensitive]

Deugirtni, I would appreciate a friend calling my children AFTER police were called. If one of my parent's friends called me to report they just saw my parents hanging from a railing, my first question would be "Did you call 911?" Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[MistyWaters]

Imo not calling the police immediately is negligence, and should be an offence under the criminal code. What if Barry or honey wasn’t dead yet? First responders could have been there quickly and possibly helped. Instead they take it upon themselves to play god, to call around to relatives? The police are trained to notify next of kin, Realtors aren’t!!!!! Plus, delaying resulted in potentially further degradation of the crime scene, either through the passage of time, or if someone went down there to look at the bodies. I’m sorry, what they did was WRONG based on what we know.

It seems there’s only two options to report discovery of obvious dead bodies - an emergency (911) or a non-emergency. I don’t know about TPS, but elsewhere the non-emergency number sometimes involves leaving a message and phone # on voicemail. The only alternative is 911, although notice the definition of “emergency”.

*****
Contacting the Toronto Police Service
If you require emergency assistance, or want to report a crime in progress, please call 9-1-1. An emergency is any situation where people or property are at risk. (including but not limited to fires, crimes in progress or medical emergencies.)

Non-Emergency
If you require Police assistance, but are not in an emergency situation (e.g. Reporting thefts, vandalism, fraud) or for other situations where no person or property is in immediate danger, please call our non-emergency telephone number 416--xxxx.

Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect

 

[MistyWaters]

Deugirtni, I would appreciate a friend calling my children AFTER police were called. If one of my parent's friends called me to report they just saw my parents hanging from a railing, my first question would be "Did you call 911?" Sorry, it doesn't make sense to me.

That question might be asked, presuming they could still be saved. Otherwise imaging a scenario of obvious death, I too would prefer a personal phonecall, as shocking as it would be, from someone I knew and right away. Definitely over a police officer doing his or her duty but unable offer no additional information, who wouldn’t know either myself or my parents.

 

[casesensitive]

That question might be asked, presuming they could still be saved. Otherwise imaging a scenario of obvious death, I too would prefer a personal phonecall, as shocking as it would be, from someone I knew and right away. Definitely over a police officer doing his or her duty but unable offer no additional information, who wouldn’t know either myself or my parents.

My mother, a nurse, found her elderly friend Ruth dead in her bed. She called Ruth's son immediately to tell him before she called police. That I can understand, but the Sherman house was a crime scene. The calls to relatives could have been made AFTER the 911 call. I am surprised that a Websleuther doesn't see any urgency in this scenario. These were not natural deaths.

 

[deugirtni]

If Stern was at the home during the discovery, maybe it was a co-listing but she removed her sign as she left? If so, the reporter’s photo of only one sign would’ve been taken much later, only after learning of the police presence.

On Stern’s public FB page she also has an Open House for the home advertised on Nov 28/17 from 11 - 12:3pm. Oddly the time of the FB post was the same day but after, @ 2:06pm.

Usually signs stay up, unless they're just for an open house. Why would the lawn sign not match the MLS listing?

 

[MistyWaters]

My mother, a nurse, found her elderly friend Ruth dead in her bed. She called Ruth's son immediately to tell him before she called police. That I can understand, but the Sherman house was a crime scene. The calls to relatives could have been made AFTER the 911 call. I am surprised that a Websleuther doesn't see any urgency in this scenario. These were not natural deaths.

Well for one thing, until the exact time the bodies were discovered is confirmed by official sources, we don’t know the time lapse was 45 minutes. What time is “shortly after 11am” as published by The Star and how accurate is the undisclosed source considering both realtors couldn’t have arrived at 10:30, given the CBC report.

Before making judgement calls, I think we ought to know the facts. Who, why, when...

 

[MistyWaters]

Usually signs stay up, unless they're just for an open house. Why would the lawn sign not match the MLS listing?

It’s impossible to know for sure. But google suggests in a co-listing contract, it’s stipulated what each of the realtors are responsible for.

“In order to be clear to all parties which brokerage will be offering what services, an Addendum or Schedule to the Seller Brokerage Agreement or the Seller Designated Brokerage Agreement must be drafted to clearly outline the duties, obligations and promises of each brokerage. This should identify which brokerage will, for example, schedule viewings, be the seller’s point of contact, conduct open houses, invoice the seller’s lawyer, assist the seller with negotiations, hold the trust funds and advertise the seller’s property. This must also be signed by the seller and both brokerage representatives.”
Co-Listing a Property - Nova Scotia Real Estate Commission

 

[dotr]

Maybe they first wanted to verify if the odd scene was a Halloween decoration or not before contacting LE and family?
imo, speculation, fwiw.
Family of Barry and Honey Sherman offers reward of up to $10M for information about killings | CBC News
'This is a joke,' realtor thought

The agent said he and his clients were surprised at what they saw, and couldn't believe the bodies were actually real.

"This is a joke, something left over from Halloween," recalled the agent."

“We could see through the large glass door. [The bodies] were on the steps leading to the pool.”

He thought to himself: “What’s with these rich people … who does this?”
"The man and his clients believed it was a Halloween stunt. But the agent for the Shermans — who had met them at the home — later called 911."
A year later, police still struggling to solve deaths of Honey and Barry Sherman | CBC News
"One agent, who saw the Shermans' bodies slumped in the pool area, has told CBC News he thought the scene was some sort of bizarre prank, or a leftover Halloween display from weeks earlier."

 

[casesensitive]

Well for one thing, until the exact time the bodies were discovered is confirmed by official sources, we don’t know the time lapse was 45 minutes. What time is “shortly after 11am” as published by The Star and how accurate is the undisclosed source considering both realtors couldn’t have arrived at 10:30, given the CBC report.

Before making judgement calls, I think we ought to know the facts. Who, why, when...

Yes, we only have media reports to base discussions on. There would be no thread discussion if we waited for official confirmations. lol

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, we only have media reports to base discussions on. There would be no thread discussion if we waited for official confirmations. lol

That’s true!

 

[ldlager]

the son was speaking about it at the funeral. they didnt get any notification from TPS, they only heard it from the tv/media and then, THEY called a relative who was golfing in Florida. That person called a politician who confirmed it due to the Health Ministers tweet that was removed.

Thanks JDG. as I recall and am quite certain, the relatives were golfing in Palm Desert California, not Florida. Not that it really matters