Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[ldlager]

Well for one thing, until the exact time the bodies were discovered is confirmed by official sources, we don’t know the time lapse was 45 minutes. What time is “shortly after 11am” as published by The Star and how accurate is the undisclosed source considering both realtors couldn’t have arrived at 10:30, given the CBC report.

Before making judgement calls, I think we ought to know the facts. Who, why, when...

The police indicated that they received a call at approx. 11.45am. The approx 45 minute lag has been well documented and discussed previously in this forum. I don’t think, from what we know, that there is any doubt that there was an unexplainable delay in calling police.

 

[ldlager]

That question might be asked, presuming they could still be saved. Otherwise imaging a scenario of obvious death, I too would prefer a personal phonecall, as shocking as it would be, from someone I knew and right away. Definitely over a police officer doing his or her duty but unable offer no additional information, who wouldn’t know either myself or my parents.

So is there any requirement to EVER call police? Do you have to report a dead body, or just call friends and relatives? Why not just bury the person yourself and be done with it? (Ok I admit that is slightly over the top, but I’m trying to make a point here).

 

[MistyWaters]

The police indicated that they received a call at approx. 11.45am. The approx 45 minute lag has been well documented and discussed previously in this forum. I don’t think, from what we know, that there is any doubt that there was an unexplainable delay in calling police.

How is a 45 minute lag well documented?

It only eluded to by The Star, while the only exact time is of the 911 dispatch (public records). I notice all other times in this report are either on the half hour or hour as well. The size of the home is not 3600 x two floors, it’s been referred to as 12,000 sq ft multiple times. The CBC quoted the other realtor to say he arrived with his clients before Shermans realtor so they couldn’t have both arrived at 10:30am. A lot of approximation happening and unreliable information, seems to me. The source - “interviews with people with close knowledge of the private investigation into the case”? What’s that supposed to mean? If the source was Greenspans team, why not just say? Otherwise anyone from the PI team can tell a second party anything they wish, whether it’s true or not. Sometimes faulty information is also a good means of determining who’s the leak.
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star

 

[MistyWaters]

So is there any requirement to EVER call police? Do you have to report a dead body, or just call friends and relatives? Why not just bury the person yourself and be done with it? (Ok I admit that is slightly over the top, but I’m trying to make a point here).

JMO but in the world today of laws, rules, guidelines, policies and procedures there’s still a tiny bit of room for people to use judgement, particularly when it involves compassion and concern for others who should want to know of the deaths of loved ones.

There’s no indication this realtor who had the misfortune of making the horrible discovery was intent on destroying evidence or out to foil the investigation that was about to occur. We haven’t heard her story but I don’t put a whole lot of weight on The Star’s anonymous account either.

 

[andreww]

andreww you have posted yourself, I believe many times, that H was attacked at a different location, and killed much earlier than B.. you have proposed (with speculation seemingly out of nowhere) that it happened in the bedroom, and that B had gravity on his side while lugging/dragging her down the basement. So now we see it in MSM that indeed there may have been two crimescene locations in the home, but yet where it is proposed to have been located, you are disagreeing with because it doesn't then exactly match with your theory. This would also answer your question you've been asking re why they would be wearing their winter coats inside the home. And yes, it had to have been cleaned up or the 6 people who entered the home after the fact would have noticed right away and presumably called police... not to mention looking all over the home to see what was up.

Never disagreed that there was a second crime scene, in fact I've known this from very early on, jut not the actual location. What I am disagreeing with is the notion that because the original crime scene is at the front door, it means that Honey was attacked as soon as she entered the front door. It could just as easily mean that the altercation occurred on Barry's arrival home, and his obvious location would be the front door.

As to why that crime scene would have been cleaned up, I don't see any reason why an intruder would do that. Did he do dishes and clean the bathrooms too?

 

[andreww]

I wonder what evidence led to the early lead of m/s. We know there was “staging.” Maybe staging included overt m/s elements like EG speculation IMO forced suicide note by BS claiming responsibility. That would create immediate lead on m/s that LE would have to pursue until it fell apart, which could have taken 5 min or 5 days etc. Following up on overt evidence isn’t inept - failing to follow it would be inept. Talking to the media about conclusions implied by overt evidence seems either inept or tactical.

Number of crime scenes is irrelevant, issue is initial crime scene that implies cold-blooded attack inconsistent with BS guilt IMO. Married men don’t lay in wait to entrap & murder their wives in the home they share. Anyway BS didn’t here, he was at the office at time of attack onset, so there we have it.

Evidence that initial crime scene was cleaned up makes crime even more cold-blooded and thus BS as perp even more absurd. How would that work? Old guy stalks and murders his wife in their own home, opting for a setting that could only point to himself as perp..... then cleans up the crime scene.... for what reason? ..... before killing himself..... why? But of course BS did none of that - he was at the office.

Sure, Barry sets up and stages a murder scene by the pool to cover up the fact that he killed his wife in the front hall, but doesn't bother to clean up the mess there? That makes sense. The ONLY person that would have any reason to clean up the original crime scene would be Barry.

 

[andreww]

JMO that “family member” refers to a family member of one the Shermans, perhaps a sibling of either of them. A “family member” doesn’t only include their children.

I took it to mean a family member of the realtor. As I recall the Shermans were angry for learning about the deaths from the media. If a family member had actually been notified before the police, I'm certain that word would have spread before police were even on the scene.

As to this talk of different realtors, I'm not really understanding the confusion? The Shermans had their own realtor (I believe they were on vacation), and perspective buyers would have their own realtor (thus the need for the lock box). I would think that once she left and said goodbye to her clients, the asian realtor would have called the Shermans realtor (assistant), who then relayed the message to their actual realtor in Florida.

 

[andreww]

Usually signs stay up, unless they're just for an open house. Why would the lawn sign not match the MLS listing?

When I sold a home recently, my sister in-law was my agent. On the day it was listed it appeared on dozens of realtor websites, appearing to be their listing. My SIL's sign remained on the property the whole time.

 

[Tortoise]

Never disagreed that there was a second crime scene, in fact I've known this from very early on, jut not the actual location. What I am disagreeing with is the notion that because the original crime scene is at the front door, it means that Honey was attacked as soon as she entered the front door. It could just as easily mean that the altercation occurred on Barry's arrival home, and his obvious location would be the front door.

As to why that crime scene would have been cleaned up, I don't see any reason why an intruder would do that. Did he do dishes and clean the bathrooms too?

BBM1. I don't think that's correct. They took Barry's car away from its location in the garage. So if Barry drove into the garage the most obvious location for his entry to the house is not the front door but the basement staircase, if he ever made it that far.

BBM2. I see a reason - it looks like she was attacked by someone either ringing the doorbell very shortly after she arrived home (still in her coat) or following her in. Not by her husband who entered the house through the garage. Cleaning up a crime scene is not equivalent to doing the housework, sorry to point out the obvious.

 

[ldlager]

Never disagreed that there was a second crime scene, in fact I've known this from very early on, jut not the actual location. What I am disagreeing with is the notion that because the original crime scene is at the front door, it means that Honey was attacked as soon as she entered the front door. It could just as easily mean that the altercation occurred on Barry's arrival home, and his obvious location would be the front door.

As to why that crime scene would have been cleaned up, I don't see any reason why an intruder would do that. Did he do dishes and clean the bathrooms too?

I doubt that Barry entered by the front door, as his car was parked in the underground garage. But I guess an altercation could still have occurred near the front door.

 

[ldlager]

JMO but in the world today of laws, rules, guidelines, policies and procedures there’s still a tiny bit of room for people to use judgement, particularly when it involves compassion and concern for others who should want to know of the deaths of loved ones.

There’s no indication this realtor who had the misfortune of making the horrible discovery was intent on destroying evidence or out to foil the investigation that was about to occur. We haven’t heard her story but I don’t put a whole lot of weight on The Star’s anonymous account either.

I believe the police were not called upon the instructions of Gottlieb. While the onsite realtor should have called 911, I can give her/him some slack if they were instructed by their boss not to do so. What I cannot condone is Gottlieb not advising them to immediately call 911. Imo

 

[andreww]

I doubt that Barry entered by the front door, as his car was parked in the underground garage. But I guess an altercation could still have occurred near the front door.

Exactly, it could have occurred anywhere. All I ever said was that if this was a murder/suicide it would be impossible that the pool area would be the only crime scene, there would without a doubt be a second crime scene somewhere else in the house. And, if Barry's intent was to stage this as some sort of execution, it would be imperative that he cleaned up that secondary crime scene, which it seems likely that someone did as nobody seemed to notice anything out of place when they entered the home.

It is also incomprehensible to me why an intruder staging a scene to look like the Shermans were ambushed as they returned home, would feel the need to clean up that part of the crime scene? Doesn't make sense.

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe the police were not called upon the instructions of Gottlieb. While the onsite realtor should have called 911, I can give her/him some slack if they were instructed by their boss not to do so. What I cannot condone is Gottlieb not advising them to immediately call 911. Imo

Earliest media reports indicate the realtor made the call.

Dec 18th
“On Sunday, Toronto police said they responded to a 911 call to the couple's residence at 11:44 a.m. Friday, reportedly from a real estate agent who was working for the couple.”
Billionaire pharma couple were strangled, case being treated as possible homicide, Toronto police say

 

[andreww]

I believe the police were not called upon the instructions of Gottlieb. While the onsite realtor should have called 911, I can give her/him some slack if they were instructed by their boss not to do so. What I cannot condone is Gottlieb not advising them to immediately call 911. Imo

Why do you believe Gottlieb instructed them not to call 911?

 

[ldlager]

Earliest media reports indicate the realtor made the call.

Dec 18th
“On Sunday, Toronto police said they responded to a 911 call to the couple's residence at 11:44 a.m. Friday, reportedly from a real estate agent who was working for the couple.”
Billionaire pharma couple were strangled, case being treated as possible homicide, Toronto police say

Perhaps, but after waiting 45 minutes?? It is ridiculous that 911 wasn’t called immediately. I have to ask, as I have before, how was the crime scene secured during the 45 minutes? Who accessed the crime scene during the delay?

 

[ldlager]

Why do you believe Gottlieb instructed them not to call 911?

That, mon ami, is the $3.7 billion dollar question.

 

[andreww]

That, mon ami, is the $3.7 billion dollar question.

But they did call 911 after calling Gottlieb. Just trying to understand your theory?

 

[MistyWaters]

Perhaps, but after waiting 45 minutes?? It is ridiculous that 911 wasn’t called immediately. I have to ask, as I have before, how was the crime scene secured during the 45 minutes? Who accessed the crime scene during the delay?

If this is where you want to go, how do you know nobody accessed the crime scene the day before, on the Thursday, and didn’t call 911 at all?

Because I’m not understanding how you believe the realtor is connected to whoever committed the Sherman murders, the killer obviously knowing when their deaths occurred prior to Friday, just awaiting the discovery.

 

[Tortoise]

Exactly, it could have occurred anywhere. All I ever said was that if this was a murder/suicide it would be impossible that the pool area would be the only crime scene, there would without a doubt be a second crime scene somewhere else in the house. And, if Barry's intent was to stage this as some sort of execution, it would be imperative that he cleaned up that secondary crime scene, which it seems likely that someone did as nobody seemed to notice anything out of place when they entered the home.

It is also incomprehensible to me why an intruder staging a scene to look like the Shermans were ambushed as they returned home, would feel the need to clean up that part of the crime scene? Doesn't make sense.

It seems fairly obvious to me that with hanging the bodies the killer's original intention was to stage the deaths as suicides. No murder investigation.

In an article titled "The Staged Crime Scene," a New York City homicide investigator wrote that the most common type of homicide staging is trying to make the death appear accidental or a suicide..
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

What makes you think anyone's intent was to stage an execution/murder/ambush? If there is a choice, which there always is in a planned murder, what killer - aside from a serial killer - would choose obvious murder (with an ensuing hunt for the killer) over seeming suicides?

Once Honey was injured (failure of the plan IMO because Honey struggled) the only thing left for the killer to come up with was impromptu staging to suggest Barry did it (clean up contradictory crime scene by the entrance) before killing himself, and then inventing an outrageous story (to sell the scene to investigators) that Barry wanted her murdered years ago because he hated her. There you have the murder/suicide staging.

If the killer wanted this to look like an execution I'm sure he would have had no trouble beating up Barry, instead of readjusting his glasses on his face and crossing his feet.

MOO

 

[andreww]

It seems fairly obvious to me that with hanging the bodies the killer's original intention was to stage the deaths as suicides. No murder investigation.




What makes you think anyone's intent was to stage an execution/murder/ambush? If there is a choice, which there always is in a planned murder, what killer - aside from a serial killer - would choose obvious murder (with an ensuing hunt for the killer) over seeming suicides?

Once Honey was injured (failure of the plan IMO because Honey struggled) the only thing left for the killer to come up with was impromptu staging to suggest Barry did it (clean up contradictory crime scene by the entrance) before killing himself, and then inventing an outrageous story (to sell the scene to investigators) that Barry wanted her murdered years ago because he hated her. There you have the murder/suicide staging.

If the killer wanted this to look like an execution I'm sure he would have had no trouble beating up Barry, instead of readjusting his glasses on his face and crossing his feet.

MOO

The coats, especially that they were pulled back restraining their arms. This detail cannot be overlooked. If you have a perp staging this to look like a suicide, why place Barry's glasses properly on his face, yet have their jackets restraining their arms? Why have the jackets at all? IMO the objective was to make it look like the couple were accosted as they walked in the door. They were immediately lento the pool area and strung up. Barry knew that his big money dealings and vast number of enemies would make this believable.

Honeys injuries eliminate the notion of a double suicide. So if they were trying for a murder suicide appearance, they would know that Honey arrived home hours before Barry. Why the coat?

 

[deugirtni]

When I sold a home recently, my sister in-law was my agent. On the day it was listed it appeared on dozens of realtor websites, appearing to be their listing. My SIL's sign remained on the property the whole time.

Yes.. I know what you mean... all of the realtors have the same listings on their websites.. but.. I thought the 'actual listing' from realtor.ca had the Stern person as the listing agent... IIRC.