Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[Tortoise]

The coats, especially that they were pulled back restraining their arms. This detail cannot be overlooked. If you have a perp staging this to look like a suicide, why place Barry's glasses properly on his face, yet have their jackets restraining their arms? Why have the jackets at all? IMO the objective was to make it look like the couple were accosted as they walked in the door. They were immediately lento the pool area and strung up. Barry knew that his big money dealings and vast number of enemies would make this believable.

It is common (apparently) for people committing suicide by hanging to restrain their own arms with their clothing, so that they can't remove the noose.

The killer probably would want their arms restrained also, so double purpose.

 

[Tortoise]

Honeys injuries eliminate the notion of a double suicide. So if they were trying for a murder suicide appearance, they would know that Honey arrived home hours before Barry. Why the coat?

They didn't want to remove her coat because they wanted her arms restrained when they removed the wrist bindings and possibly she already had blood drips or smudges on her coat so it would be obvious she was wearing it when she was attacked anyway. As far as I know it hasn't been confirmed that Honey arrived home hours before Barry, not that it alters the scenario really.

MOO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

The killer injured HS’s face and bound her wrists, likely behind her back. For an average person, I’d imagine that would be uncomfortable. For a 70-year old woman with arthritis, that would be painful to be kept in that position for long.

Could the killer have removed the bindings in a move to get them to cooperate- a part of bargaining? ‘I’m going to remove these bindings, but you’re going do have to do/tell me _____’?

 

[andreww]

They didn't want to remove her coat because they wanted her arms restrained when they removed the wrist bindings and possibly she already had blood drips or smudges on her coat so it would be obvious she was wearing it when she was attacked anyway. As far as I know it hasn't been confirmed that Honey arrived home hours before Barry, not that it alters the scenario really.

MOO

You can rationalize it however you want, however this master criminal supposedly to the home to subdue and kill two people but didn't bother to take a weapon? And if and elderly woman were to fight back, there are many ways to subdue her without drawing blood. And wanting her arms to be restrained when they removed the wrist bindings? I'd assume she'd be dead at that point, so why?

People here like to imagine the most psychopathic details, but when you try and piece together this case as a double murder, it's almost comical. Killers not bringing tools, hanging victims with their belts, cleaning another part of the house and locking the door before they left? Does that really make any sense to you?

 

[andreww]

The killer injured HS’s face and bound her wrists, likely behind her back. For an average person, I’d imagine that would be uncomfortable. For a 70-year old woman with arthritis, that would be painful to be kept in that position for long.

Could the killer have removed the bindings in a move to get them to cooperate- a part of bargaining? ‘I’m going to remove these bindings, but you’re going do have to do/tell me _____’?

Not sure why a killer would need to bind a 70 year old's wrists in the first place?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

You can rationalize it however you want, however this master criminal supposedly to the home to subdue and kill two people but didn't bother to take a weapon? And if and elderly woman were to fight back, there are many ways to subdue her without drawing blood. And wanting her arms to be restrained when they removed the wrist bindings? I'd assume she'd be dead at that point, so why?

People here like to imagine the most psychopathic details, but when you try and piece together this case as a double murder, it's almost comical. Killers not bringing tools, hanging victims with their belts, cleaning another part of the house and locking the door before they left? Does that really make any sense to you?

We don’t know if they brought another weapon.

TPS have all of the information about the crime, and it has been ruled a targeted double homicide.

If KW is involved, the scene may make sense only to him.

ETA: Take Rohinie Bissesar’s crime- did any of what she did that day make sense? To her and her doctors only, I’d imagine

 

[deugirtni]

You can rationalize it however you want, however this master criminal supposedly to the home to subdue and kill two people but didn't bother to take a weapon? And if and elderly woman were to fight back, there are many ways to subdue her without drawing blood. And wanting her arms to be restrained when they removed the wrist bindings? I'd assume she'd be dead at that point, so why?

People here like to imagine the most psychopathic details, but when you try and piece together this case as a double murder, it's almost comical. Killers not bringing tools, hanging victims with their belts, cleaning another part of the house and locking the door before they left? Does that really make any sense to you?

Who said they locked the door?

There were SIX people in the home when the bodies were found. Could have been more than that, who had entered previously, like on the Thursday, we don't know. Police don't even know if the doors were locked or unlocked. They have to go on the word of the housekeeper and gardener (assuming they were first to enter the home after the murders).

 

[deugirtni]

Not sure why a killer would need to bind a 70 year old's wrists in the first place?

Do you think people at 70 are already dead and incapacitated and unable to scratch and get perp's skin under their nails, maybe throw a punch or whatever? Seventy year olds aren't comatose vegetables.

 

[ldlager]

But they did call 911 after calling Gottlieb. Just trying to understand your theory?

Yes, but in the interim we understand that Gottlieb made other calls, to other people. If I was LE I would want to know who was contacted, and where they were during the delay. If something makes no sense, like gottliebs behaviour, I want to know why. That’s all.

 

[Tortoise]

You can rationalize it however you want, however this master criminal supposedly to the home to subdue and kill two people but didn't bother to take a weapon? And if and elderly woman were to fight back, there are many ways to subdue her without drawing blood. And wanting her arms to be restrained when they removed the wrist bindings? I'd assume she'd be dead at that point, so why?

People here like to imagine the most psychopathic details, but when you try and piece together this case as a double murder, it's almost comical. Killers not bringing tools, hanging victims with their belts, cleaning another part of the house and locking the door before they left? Does that really make any sense to you?

Who said anything about master criminal, not me. If the plan was to make the deaths look like suicides and one of them went wrong as I indicated, that's hardly a master criminal. It's an amateur. He could have threatened with a weapon like a knife and not used it. We don't know if Honey merely fell on her face in trying to get away, so it's not necessarily the killer who drew blood. Why assume she was dead after becoming injured?

I think the use of the words psychopathic and comical are just a distraction from the argument. Try explaining how it makes sense for KW to say Barry finally killed her before anyone knew anything except that they were both found dead in their home. That's the part that doesn't make sense.

 

[ldlager]

If this is where you want to go, how do you know nobody accessed the crime scene the day before, on the Thursday, and didn’t call 911 at all?

Because I’m not understanding how you believe the realtor is connected to whoever committed the Sherman murders, the killer obviously knowing when their deaths occurred prior to Friday, just awaiting the discovery.

I don’t know if anyone accessed the crime scene before Friday. Maybe someone did, came back to clean up or remove evidence. We don’t know. It’s certainly possible, isn’t it?
Again, I have no idea of the realtors involvement in the crime. But when she covers up the existence of the crime scene for a period of time I would like to know why. And I want to know who she called, and did those people visit the house after they were called and before first responders arrived.
She doesn’t get a “free pass” just because she was evidently a friend of the family!!

 

[Tortoise]

Do you think people at 70 are already dead and incapacitated and unable to scratch and get perp's skin under their nails, maybe throw a punch or whatever? Seventy year olds aren't comatose vegetables.

And certainly not Honey, she had regular personal fitness training iirc.

 

[ldlager]

The killer injured HS’s face and bound her wrists, likely behind her back. For an average person, I’d imagine that would be uncomfortable. For a 70-year old woman with arthritis, that would be painful to be kept in that position for long.

Could the killer have removed the bindings in a move to get them to cooperate- a part of bargaining? ‘I’m going to remove these bindings, but you’re going do have to do/tell me _____’?

In a previous posting it was rumoured that honey’s bleeding was caused by a certain specific part of her body that was cut. This injury could not have been caused during a struggle, it would take an intentional act by the assailant to do it. And I am sure that her arms would be bound while it was happening. This posting was subsequently snipped, as was my subsequent reference to it. However this specific rumour is still circulating out there, and if it is true one could make the case that honey was perhaps as least as much of a primary target as was Barry.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I don’t know if anyone accessed the crime scene before Friday. Maybe someone did, came back to clean up or remove evidence. We don’t know. It’s certainly possible, isn’t it?
Again, I have no idea of the realtors involvement in the crime. But when she covers up the existence of the crime scene for a period of time I would like to know why. And I want to know who she called, and did those people visit the house after they were called and before first responders arrived.
She doesn’t get a “free pass” just because she was evidently a friend of the family!!

If the Star is incorrect- why wouldn’t a lawyer for the realtor clear up any confusion? Even if the assistant would not wish to be named, the Star could honour that request.
The realtor for the potential buyers spoke out to the CBC and, per their request, was not named in the story.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don’t know if anyone accessed the crime scene before Friday. Maybe someone did, came back to clean up or remove evidence. We don’t know. It’s certainly possible, isn’t it?
Again, I have no idea of the realtors involvement in the crime. But when she covers up the existence of the crime scene for a period of time I would like to know why. And I want to know who she called, and did those people visit the house after they were called and before first responders arrived.
She doesn’t get a “free pass” just because she was evidently a friend of the family!!

I’m certain TPS was interested as well and nobody’s giving her a free pass. Typically every person in that home from the time they entered until police arrived on scene would be asked to describe and account for their actions, even proving it by handing over their cellphones. While the other agent and his Asian clients fled in fear of what looked to them as a gruesome Halloween scene, there’s nothing to indicate the house was vacated by the other three who recognized it was not a prank.

 

[ldlager]

I’m certain TPS was interested as well and nobody’s giving her a free pass. Typically every person in that home from the time they entered until police arrived on scene would be asked to describe and account for their actions, even proving it by handing over their cellphones. While the other agent and his Asian clients fled in fear of what looked to them as a gruesome Halloween scene, there’s nothing to indicate the house was vacated by the other three who recognized it was not a prank.

Well, except that we are led to understand that LE didn’t actually try and clear the individuals in the house via DNA for a number of months afterwards. We don’t even know if the TPS has ever questioned Gottlieb- we can only assume they have. But maybe not, who knows?

It’s not the people in the house I would like an explanation for. It’s gottlieb’s apparent actions to stall calling the police or 911. Why was this done? It’s a simple request for an explanation, that’s all.

 

[MistyWaters]

Well, except that we are led to understand that LE didn’t actually try and clear the individuals in the house via DNA for a number of months afterwards. We don’t even know if the TPS has ever questioned Gottlieb- we can only assume they have. But maybe not, who knows?

It’s not the people in the house I would like an explanation for. It’s gottlieb’s apparent actions to stall calling the police or 911. Why was this done? It’s a simple request for an explanation, that’s all.

I’m interested in events leading up to the murders involving this same real estate viewing. When and how was it confirmed, or was it, considering I doubt it was intended for the cleaning staff to be present during a viewing by serious buyers. Was the house cleaner aware, maybe confusion over the time or something? Or if confirmation was by electronic means, say Wednesday night, did the killer/s have access to the Shermans electronic devices and confirm the viewing, so as not to alarm the realtor or give her cause to seek out Honey in advance?

The Sherman realtor (one or two) will become trial witnesses, questions over calling 911, the nature of personal contact with either of the Shermans, also because of questions arising from the lock box. So although I’m not expecting any explanations just to satisfy the curiosity of the general public to be forthcoming until somebody’s charged and a trial occurs, I’m still hopeful that’ll occur sooner rather than later.

 

[andreww]

We don’t know if they brought another weapon.

TPS have all of the information about the crime, and it has been ruled a targeted double homicide.

If KW is involved, the scene may make sense only to him.

ETA: Take Rohinie Bissesar’s crime- did any of what she did that day make sense? To her and her doctors only, I’d imagine

You are seriously thinking Kerry Winter had something to do with this? If he did, TPS would have to be the most inept bunch of buffoons in the history of policing because Kerry put it all out there for them, and it's a year later. That ship has sailed, find another suspect.

And as far as Rohinie Bisesar goes, yes it did make sense in that she was nuts and she randomly stabbed a stranger. There is nothing about that case that leaves you scratching your head. Cut and dry. This case makes absolutely no sense in the context of a double murder and quite frankly, the only reason I can comprehend that anyone would actually believe that this is a double murder is that they have an undeniable need to believe everything a police officer tells them. When asked for just one reason why she thinks this is a TARGETED double murder, Susan Gomes' response was "six weeks of evidence". What kind of answer is that? Six weeks of evidence could be (and probably is) absolutely nothing. When you look closely at what we do actually know about the case, it makes absolutely no sense. You guys just keep making crap up to explain these inconsistencies but that just doesn't cut it. THE CRIME MAKES NO SENSE!

 

[andreww]

Why assume she was dead after becoming injured?

I think the use of the words psychopathic and comical are just a distraction from the argument. Try explaining how it makes sense for KW to say Barry finally killed her before anyone knew anything except that they were both found dead in their home. That's the part that doesn't make sense.

Geez, why do the simplest ideas need to be completely spelled out? IF the had wrist bindings on, why in gods name would they take them off until they were both dead hanging from the railing? So no need to bind their arms with jackets after they are already dead is there?

To your second point, because KERRY KNEW BARRY HATED HER GUTS! Kerry is the only person on here that doesn't have his head in the sand because they've bought in to the idea that these too people were happy and in love. This is Canada. You are extremely unlikely to get murdered here, unless you are running with gangs or doing drugs. If you don't fit that category and still get murdered you can bet your that your spouse, or significant other did it.

 

[Tortoise]

Geez, why do the simplest ideas need to be completely spelled out? IF the had wrist bindings on, why in gods name would they take them off until they were both dead hanging from the railing? So no need to bind their arms with jackets after they are already dead is there?

To your second point, because KERRY KNEW BARRY HATED HER GUTS! Kerry is the only person on here that doesn't have his head in the sand because they've bought in to the idea that these too people were happy and in love. This is Canada. You are extremely unlikely to get murdered here, unless you are running with gangs or doing drugs. If you don't fit that category and still get murdered you can bet your that your spouse, or significant other did it.

How do you know the perp could reach their wrists to remove the bindings after they were hanged on the railing? I believe that would involve being able to access their backs which would mean from the pool side.

I see you've bought into the story of 'cousin, will you hire a murderer for me, oh no, second thoughts I've changed my mind.' Talk about heads in the sand. How come KW didn't level these accusations against Barry during the lawsuit?