Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #3

[Jennifer17]

Following a permit being issued, iirc there's a 30-day window that any concerned party can file an appeal. For example a neighbour might express an objection to a proposed plan but the municipal development board can still approve it. Then they have the alternative of filing an appeal after the permit is granted and the entire matter is heard by the municipal appeal board.
The said "halt" likely was bad reporting but development could indeed be halted if the development permit was appealed. The odd reference just tweeked my attention because the reporter sort of threw it out there without offering additional details.

I think work would have been halted until probate was granted on the estates, which is probably quite complicated.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

A comoany can’t just gift out assets to shareholders or others without it being a taxable event. It’s not that simple. If it was people would pay them selves in non cash assets and pay no tax.

The $0 transaction was from the previous owners and would be for privacy reasons.

Registration in her name alone would likely be for liability protection and convenience.

BBM

But that's what I don't understand. Why wasn't the old house put into Honey's name? I would think liability protection would have been much more important years ago when he was still actively running the business. If they didn't do it then, why do it now?

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[Tighthead]

BBM

But that's what I don't understand. Why wasn't the old house put into Honey's name? I would think liability protection would have been much more important years ago when he was still actively running the business. If they didn't do it then, why do it now?

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They may have overlooked it at the time. The house was only worth $400,000 when they bought it.

This time it may have just been so that Barry wouldn’t have to be consulted and sign for things through the purchase, permitting, variance and build.

I don't think the house being in her name alone is a big deal. The fact that they did it differently in 1985 doesn’t really tell us much.

 

[pamelado2]

BBM

But that's what I don't understand. Why wasn't the old house put into Honey's name? I would think liability protection would have been much more important years ago when he was still actively running the business. If they didn't do it then, why do it now?

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The old house was purchased in the 80's, perhaps before they had big money. They may have never gotten around to print it in her name or it wasn't necessary.

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[MistyWaters]

BBM

But that's what I don't understand. Why wasn't the old house put into Honey's name? I would think liability protection would have been much more important years ago when he was still actively running the business. If they didn't do it then, why do it now?

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Perhaps at the time regarding the new house, it was just a matter of convenience, considering the odds greatly favour a 69 year old wife outliving a 74 year old husband.

 

[Jennifer17]

The old house was purchased in the 80's, perhaps before they had big money. They may have never gotten around to print it in her name or it wasn't necessary.

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I have often wondered if a home was in both partners names and just one of those partners was sued, would the non sued partner have to give up their share if the home had to be sold to pay the damages?

 

[Jennifer17]

Perhaps at the time regarding the new house, it was just a matter of convenience, considering the odds greatly favour a 69 year old wife outliving a 74 year old husband.

A good point if Canada has an inheritance tax on the marital home? Do they? We do not have inheritance tax any more, but when we did the marital home was exempt.

 

[MistyWaters]

A good point if Canada has an inheritance tax on the marital home? Do they? We do not have inheritance tax any more, but when we did the marital home was exempt.

No Canada has no inheritance tax. No capital gains tax for homeowner occupied primary residences either. (We just are taxed to the hilt by other avenues...)

For the ease of estate planning, I suggested the possibility only as a matter of convenience and to avoid title transfer fees upon the death of a spouse. Regardless of what occured, at their age estate planning was as likely topic on their mind.

 

[Tighthead]

A good point if Canada has an inheritance tax on the marital home? Do they? We do not have inheritance tax any more, but when we did the marital home was exempt.

No inheritance tax, no CG and no transfer taxes if owned as joint tenants.

The transfer fees at the time of death are only a few hundred. If you pick the wrong spouse to die first you make things unnecessarily complicated, but I assume the Shermans have complex estate plans regardless.

 

[MistyWaters]

I have often wondered if a home was in both partners names and just one of those partners was sued, would the non sued partner have to give up their share if the home had to be sold to pay the damages?

Interesting question for an attorney. My unprofessional opinion, if a Judgement was won, any asset is fair game but only with court approval. If an uninvolved partner could prove his or her personal funds bought the home, that might be reason for the courts to not approve foreclosure. The road to actually recovering monetary awards from successful personal lawsuits is just as long and muddy as winning the lawsuit.

 

[Tighthead]

Interesting question for an attorney. My unprofessional opinion, if a Judgement was won, any asset is fair game but only with court approval. If an uninvolved partner could prove his or her personal funds bought the home, that might be reason for the courts to not approve foreclosure. The road to actually recovering monetary awards from successful personal lawsuits is just as long and muddy as winning the lawsuit.

A creditor could potentially force the sale of the home by court order. The non liable party should be able to keep their proceeds but in marriages it can get complicated. They may be seen as complicit.

Registering the judgement on title will prevent future transfers and financing, and also be a default of any existing mortgage.

 

[Jennifer17]

A creditor could potentially force the sale of the home by court order. The non liable party should be able to keep their proceeds but in marriages it can get complicated. They may be seen as complicit.

Registering the judgement on title will prevent future transfers and financing, and also be a default of any existing mortgage.

I wasn't thinking of a company jointly owned which was sued, rather if some personal thing happened like one partner assaulted a stranger and that person sued for damages. Would the other partner be financially liable too, if they owned a property in both names? I realise that it would have to be liquidated. I have just wondered if the other partner would lose his/ her equity in the home.

 

[christyne]

I wonder were the staff was, if any.
Barry was off work on Thursday, which I understand to be unusual. The real estate agent let herself in with her key on friday noon, and discovered the bodies...so no staff in the house on Friday.
Both owners' cars parked outside...surely the staff would have looked for the owners in the house seeing the cars outside...
Could it be that Barry called them, tell them not to come in?
Honey was going to Florida, I think I read he was not going with her. The new house is registered under her name...hum maybe she was leaving him?

 

[Jennifer17]

I wonder were the staff was, if any.
Barry was off work on Thursday, which I understand to be unusual. The real estate agent let herself in with her key on friday noon, and discovered the bodies...so no staff in the house on Friday.
Both owners' cars parked outside...surely the staff would have looked for the owners in the house seeing the cars outside...
Could it be that Barry called them, tell them not to come in?
Honey was going to Florida, I think I read he was not going with her. The new house is registered under her name...hum maybe she was leaving him?

I think it has been reported that there was at least one member of staff there that day, but it is a huge house and had no need to go to the basement pool area. It also may not have been unusual that their cars were there. They led a busy social life and could have been picked up by someone. I think that staff in rich people's houses are treated as staff, not friends and are mindful of minding their own business.

 

[JDG]

Do you think Barry would have committed suicide and murdered his wife knowing he was being awarded the Order of Canada very soon? Surely this would have been a great honour and achievement to him or he would not have accepted it. Why after a life of success would you want to die in disgrace? Why would he chose that day in particular?

It also seems crazy me that as the owner of a pharmaceutical company you would kill yourself and your wife via hanging? Why not take an overdose?

I don't think the Order of Canada mattered to him at all. When you read his 'thoughts about life' or whatever he called it, not much mattered to Barry but Barry, money and beating out the opponent at any cost. IF they weren't murdered, I think he had a psychotic break over something and killled her. IF he chose a day, it could have been because she was leaving for Florida on the 18th (?).

As for using drugs, they aren't as easy as you'd think. Fatal dosages are hard to figure, we are all just a little bit different, chemically, from one another. You can use a general rule and half life of a drug but it won't necessarily work. Lots of people throw them up before they can work, you can lose consciousness before finishing the amount required etc, etc. Yet, people die of drug overdoses every day too.
He was probably afraid that they'd be brain damaged, not dead. or he just wasn't thinking cause he had snapped.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think work would have been halted until probate was granted on the estates, which is probably quite complicated.

Indeed you could be correct. For some unknown reason, I took it to mean something regarding work progress might've occurred immediately prior to their deaths.

I'm on the fence as to what happened, not enough information to base any sound theory on. But if a murder/suicide occurred, after living more than 30 years in a family home, then into ones 70s, designing and building an highly upscale, large home such as was planned...I do have to wonder about additional stresses that it might've caused between the two.

 

[pamelado2]

I think it has been reported that there was at least one member of staff there that day, but it is a huge house and had no need to go to the basement pool area. It also may not have been unusual that their cars were there. They led a busy social life and could have been picked up by someone. I think that staff in rich people's houses are treated as staff, not friends and are mindful of minding their own business.

I worked for a family years ago, they had a huge house (17 bedrooms), the main "caretaker" always knew where they were. There lives were much less private than mine. This family came from nothing and worked hard, eventually become millionaires. They treated staff very well, always friendly, polite more as friends than staff. It made us go above and beyond, and I still feel quite loyal to them.


One of us always took them to the airport or picked them up, meals had to be made, sheets changed, etc. There was one adult son that lived there full time and the owners mother. Then the owner and his wife who lived there 5 months out of the year. There were just 2 of us working full-time, who took care of everything inside.

To me the Sherman house wasn't that big, they certainly wouldn't need full time help unless they wanted it for meals. If they were frugal, I can see them having help come in once or twice a week. If that's the case I can see them being more professional to someone they didn't see every day, all day long.

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[JDG]

They may have overlooked it at the time. The house was only worth $400,000 when they bought it.

This time it may have just been so that Barry wouldn’t have to be consulted and sign for things through the purchase, permitting, variance and build.

I don't think the house being in her name alone is a big deal. The fact that they did it differently in 1985 doesn’t really tell us much.

If you mean the house on Old Colony Road, it was the lot that was worth $360,000 or so. They paid $2.3M for the house to be built, then sued everyone and got $2M back the contractors. So, in total it was just over $2.7M

I agree about why, BS was living at work and thats when the generics were really hitting the market. He didn't have time for houses.

 

[ChaChaCha7]

Tighthead is right on when it comes to complicit title transfers but in the case of the new property title will be transferred to the Estate Trustee of BH's Estate and then to any subsequent purchaser or beneficiary as the case may be.

The existing property will be registered in the name of the survivor in the event the property is registered to both as joint tenants.

This is where it gets interesting. In order to properly administer these two estates it is necessary to determine which of the two died first ...most wills have provisions for predeceased beneficiaries and in particular provide that a beneficiary must survive the testator for a period of 30 days in order to receive under the will. Subsequent disaster clauses would then apply setting out the distribution of the Estate assets.

As of late, wealthy business owners have both a primary and secondary will. The primary will is for personal assets while the secondary will is for shares in private corporations and other assets that do not require probate . This along with shareholder agreements and trusts and other arrangements are referred to as succession planning.

IMO the circumstances of their passing at the "same" time will cause a lot of red tape and affect the ownership of shares in some of their corporations. There will also be probate filing fees and capital gains taxes payable on all of their taxable assets at the same time...onerous.

IMO the deaths are the result of a double murder for hire by someone who wanted to ruin the Sherman name, throw all of the assets into legal limbo, attract maximum tax payable and topple the succession plan. It is the ultimate revenge against the Sherman dynasty IMO ...

 

[christyne]

I'm sure there was no staff on Friday, the real estate agent got no answer before to get in:
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...ut-the-deaths-of-barry-and-honey-sherman.html
That house is not that big, and staff do mind if the owners are around or not, if only to be able to answer a request.