Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[ldlager]

But who contacted Gottlieb? Article doesn't say. So we just presume the obvious that Gottlieb's assistance phoned Gottlieb.
It wouldn't have taken much to write that clearer, especially with multiple proofreadings.

Re-written for clarity (if this is what the Investigative Reporter meant):
[FONT=&amp]The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Gottlieb's assistant contacted Gottlieb. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.

NOTE: I inserted "[/FONT]Gottlieb's assistant contacted Gottlieb.[FONT=&amp]"[/FONT]

You should write for the Star! Lol.
Only the housekeeper and the assistant knew of the bodies, so it seems likely that the assistant called Gottlieb. The question is, who did Gottlieb in turn call?
BTW, AFAIK, the realtor would have likely been the party that suggested and set up the lockbox ....
moo

 

[Hazel]

^^BBM
Re: Anyone can buy plastic zip ties at Home Depot but it is damn next to impossible to put them on yourself.
I just now put one plastic zip tie around both of my wrists and pulled tight with my teeth. Easy. I had a wire cutter tool handy to cut the zip tie and release my wrists.

Exactly! :yourock:
I had been thinking the same. Also, been thinking that if the intent was to "cause abrasions" there wont even be the need to actually pull the zip ties tight. Just do it one hand at a time, moving the plastic back and forth many times, causing friction and damage to the skin. JMHO

I'm still waiting for evidence from surveillance videos from the house, neighbours, dashcams, traffic cameras, etc., something to show the presence of suspect(s)/intruder(s) that day, and possibly days prior.
MOO

 

[ldlager]

Can anyone familiar with these sorts of investigations help explain why LE waited 33 days after Dr. Chiasson concluded his 2 autopsies before they interviewed Dr. Chiasson?

 

[ldlager]

Exactly! :yourock:
I had been thinking the same. Also, been thinking that if the intent was to "cause abrasions" there wont even be the need to actually pull the zip ties tight. Just do it one hand at a time, moving the plastic back and forth many times, causing friction and damage to the skin. JMHO

I'm still waiting for evidence from surveillance videos from the house, neighbours, dashcams, traffic cameras, etc., something to show the presence of suspect(s)/intruder(s) that day, and possibly days prior.
MOO

From what I can see, based on the little we know, the key factor supporting a mm that cannot be explained away is dr chiasson’s finding that the strangulation was “likely” caused by something other than the belts. To me, if it is accurate, a ms is not possible imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

“In Chiasson’s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks.”
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

If this is correct, it proves both victims were likely restrained at the time they were strangled. The bindings on the wrists removed when the bodies were staged in a sitting position bound to the pool railing by the belts. During the autopsy procedure it can be determined if the ligature was conducive to the width of the belts.

For those who still question if this was a murder-suicide, why would BS bind the wrists of his wife (and his own) if he wanted both their deaths to appear to be a double suicide? If that was the case, it’d seem to me it was intended to appear to be perceived as a double murder. So what’s the point of staging a suicide?

 

[JDG]

The pool chemicals could have masked the smell somewhat IMO.

Thats probably why they were hung by the pool. After two days?....... we won't go there.

Suffice it to say, one wouldn't be checking for vitals.

 

[JDG]

But who contacted Gottlieb? Article doesn't say. So we just presume the obvious that Gottlieb's assistance phoned Gottlieb.
It wouldn't have taken much to write that clearer, especially with multiple proofreadings.

Re-written for clarity (if this is what the Investigative Reporter meant):
[FONT=&amp]The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Gottlieb's assistant contacted Gottlieb. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.

NOTE: I inserted "[/FONT]Gottlieb's assistant contacted Gottlieb.[FONT=&amp]"[/FONT]

Im not sure newspapers even use proof readers any more. Print media has taken such a hit from computers, lack of advertising etc. Most papers are barely in business these days, never mind proof reading.

I still suspect its an error of some sort with either the interview material or the writing.

 

[Hazel]

Trying to visualize the scene when the agents first entered the pool area, would the Sherman's backs be the first thing seen, or their faces?
If faces first, could that have been staged that way with the purpose of shocking and horrifying the agent and prospective clients?
speculation, imo.

Based on the floorplan of the house, I believe their backs would have been to the door.

the pool is 43 ft long. Plus the distance from the door to the pool and the railing to the pool. Call it 50 ft. In total from the door to the bodies. My eyesight sure wouldn’t be good enough to judge living vs dead from 50 ft away with the bodies facing the other direction. So, maybe someone went over to the bodies to look closer? If so, who? And were they alone at the crime scene?

when I said discuss with the housekeeper I meant tell him/her about the bodies.

Using the floorplan, this is how I visualize the scene.
The green lines would be steps into the pool, green dots show the path to access the pool area.
Garage area cropped for space.

 

[Hazel]

From what I can see, based on the little we know, the key factor supporting a mm that cannot be explained away is dr chiasson’s finding that the strangulation was “likely” caused by something other than the belts. To me, if it is accurate, a ms is not possible imo.

I go by whatever the Chief ME says, which we don't really know exactly. All we know is he handed the bodies prior to the funeral, can't remember the dates exactly, maybe Dec. 19th.

LE continued considering HS as ONLY victim way into January, which gives a hint into what the Chief ME ruled out. ALL JMO

Given that the second autopsy was carried out by a "hired" pathologist, it's a bit hard to give much credence into his findings. It would have been better to get a completely autonomous/unbiased/not hired one. I mean not hired by the family/PIs. All JMO and how this whole case is so bizarre.

 

[Doghairrules]

Here is how I think it went down. The realtor/assistant saw the bodies and quickly got the clients out of the way. She then checked to see if they were alive or dead. Clearly they were dead, so immediately calling 911 was not going to helpful one way or another. She probably then called a superior to ask the best way to proceed. In the end, calling 911 is easiest and not a problem considering the gravity of the situation. But calling immediately or 40 minutes later would not make a difference. Unless, of course, there was reason to believe the killers were still in the house.

But that’s just it, right? They would not have immediately known that the killer was not in the house.

 

[SeesSeas]

Thinking that the assistant saw the bodies first, ( 11a.m.ish.) and relayed that information to the housekeeper.
Gottlieb then made a phone call asking for direction.It is not known who she called.
Meanwhile the housekeeper called emergency number.(11:43a.m.)
imo.

How/when/who contacted Gottlieb? Logically, Gottlieb's assistance called Gottlieb. But the news article does not state such.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.
Meanwhile, the housekeeper called 911. Toronto Police 911 system records a call coming in at 11:43 a.m. Police were en route by 11:44 a.m.

 

[Hazel]

Side door was always left open and friends/family/neighbours knew.

This is also a hard pill to swallow. (no pun intended)
Billionaire elderly couple, living alone, grown-up children had already left the nest, no full-time housekeepers (only daytime, and apparently not even seven days a week), no butler, no bodyguards, no alarm system, no surveillance video cameras, and yet, they kept the side door unlocked? :shame:

 

[dotr]

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

Friday morning, at 8:30 a.m., the housekeeper and a person who waters the Shermans’ plants once a week arrived at Old Colony Rd. for regularly scheduled Friday-morning visits.

Both housekeeper and plant waterer busied themselves on the main and second floor for the next two hours. Both floors are roughly 3,600 square feet with multiple rooms. Neither the housekeeper or the person watering the plants descended to the lower level, which includes a garage, recreation area and swimming pool.
At 10:30 a.m., two real estate agents and a couple interested in purchasing the house arrived. The house was listed for sale by agent Judi Gottlieb. Gottlieb was away in Florida, and an other agent went in her place. The other agent present represented the prospective purchasers.

After touring the upper floor, the agents and the clients went downstairs and walked along a corridor leading to the pool. Gottlieb’s assistant went first. She walked through the doorway to the pool room and recoiled. At the other end of the room she saw two bodies, backs to the pool, held in a sitting position by something tied around their necks. She turned and ushered the other agent and the clients back, making an excuse, saying this part of the home was off limits at the moment.

 

[dotr]

How/when/who contacted Gottlieb? Logically, Gottlieb's assistance called Gottlieb. But the news article does not state such.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html

The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.
Meanwhile, the housekeeper called 911. Toronto Police 911 system records a call coming in at 11:43 a.m. Police were en route by 11:44 a.m.

Quite right! I had removed that post before reading this one. All along i had thought that Gottlieb was at the house too, double checked to see that she was in Florida, good catch on the " assistant " bit!

 

[SeesSeas]

Quite right! I had removed that post before reading this one. All along i had thought that Gottlieb was at the house too, double checked to see that she was in Florida, good catch on the " assistant " bit!

Yes. . . Here is that entire section of the article:
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...d-from-murder-suicide-to-double-homicide.html
At 10:30 a.m., two real estate agents and a couple interested in purchasing the house arrived. The house was listed for sale by agent Judi Gottlieb. Gottlieb was away in Florida, and an other agent went in her place. The other agent present represented the prospective purchasers.
After touring the upper floor, the agents and the clients went downstairs and walked along a corridor leading to the pool. Gottlieb’s assistant went first. She walked through the doorway to the pool room and recoiled. At the other end of the room she saw two bodies, backs to the pool, held in a sitting position by something tied around their necks. She turned and ushered the other agent and the clients back, making an excuse, saying this part of the home was off limits at the moment.
The discovery was made shortly after 11 a.m. Friday. Gottlieb’s assistant called up to the housekeeper, telling her what she had seen. Then Gottlieb made a phone call, seeking direction on what to do. The Star could not determine who she called.
Meanwhile, the housekeeper called 911. Toronto Police 911 system records a call coming in at 11:43 a.m. Police were en route by 11:44 a.m.

 

[Gardenista]

Possible of course. After almost 2 days is it likely that the whole house would have smelled? Especially since the furnaces would have distributed air from the basement?

Not sure how it all works, but it seems like an indoor pool room would have an separate/independent system.

 

[Hazel]

You should write for the Star! Lol.
Only the housekeeper and the assistant knew of the bodies, so it seems likely that the assistant called Gottlieb. The question is, who did Gottlieb in turn call?
BTW, AFAIK, the realtor would have likely been the party that suggested and set up the lockbox ....
moo

Why set up the lockbox, if the side door was always kept unlocked? *wink*
:dance:
One more reason that suggests the side door was not unlocked, but JMHO.

 

[JDG]

This is also a hard pill to swallow. (no pun intended)
Billionaire elderly couple, living alone, grown-up children had already left the nest, no full-time housekeepers (only daytime, and apparently not even seven days a week), no butler, no bodyguards, no alarm system, no surveillance video cameras, and yet, they kept the side door unlocked? :shame:

You would be amazed at the number of people in wealthy areas of Toronto, who leave one door unlocked and often leave a front door OPEN while working in the backyard. They trust their neighbours, have lived in the area for years and feel secure. That feeling doesn't evaporate when the kids move out or go to college.

Our neighbourhood is downmarket from Old Colony Rd but not far and not by much. I have one neighbour who leaves her handbag and keys right by the OPEN front door. She could be in the shower, working in her back garden or having drinks on the deck. Has always been an open door policy.

We do get a local magazine with Police listings of break ins and robberies. Most accessed through open doors, open windows and the number of car thefts, esp in cold weather is mind blowing. They start the car to warm it up and when they come out, voila, its gone.

Almost a daily occurrence. For decades, we left our back door unlocked so that if the kids misplaced their keys, they could get in. it was only locked at night. Never had a problem.

 

[miele.m]

Why did Barry hate Honey so much? Well, you’d have to known her. According to Barry, she was “mean spirited”. Her 3 daughter’s were estranged for years from her. With all her diamond jewelry and Jewish high society here in Toronto, she had no class. They say you can take the girl out of the trailer park but you can’t take the trailer park out of the girl.
Honey was a classless, vulgar, pushy, rude nasty *****.
Bottom line: l witnessed her being very demeaning and provocative towards Barry. She loved to push his buttons and taunt him about being a workaholic.

Kerry, Very good insight you have shared here regarding Honey being estranged from daughters for years, this I had not heard.
I wonder why this long estrangement from ALL 3 daughters?
I find it extremely odd that neither of the 4 children work in the business, makes me wonder why? All 4 of them had NO interest?
It would be an opportunity of a life time for many people, yet they didn’t take it..... why?

<modsnip>

 

[Hazel]

Can anyone familiar with these sorts of investigations help explain why LE waited 33 days after Dr. Chiasson concluded his 2 autopsies before they interviewed Dr. Chiasson?

From what we've read on the Toronto Star, that "interview" took place AFTER someone from the PI's team "leaked unauthorized" information to the press.

The TPS read about the hired PI's conclusions at the same time as we did, from the news article!!!

Where did you read Dr. Chiasson conducted 2 autopsies? It was my understanding he conducted the second autopsy just in time for the funeral, followed by cremation, but I could be wrong.