CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #24

[Clue Keeper]

The ledger is not zeroed. The estate trustees have a fiduciary duty to collect the outstanding balance based on the loan agreement now owed to the estate. Of course the trustees can negotiate with the borrower and alter the terms and sums. Since I am pretty sure Barry always involved lawyers to draw up these loans, rest assured Barry or Honey's death would not eliminate or clear the loan.
The borrowers, no doubt would be fully aware of this fact, and the motive for murder to eliminate the debt would be invalid.

I am looking at the reality of estate litigation - past the "letter of the law". Even if lawyers drew up the paperwork, Barry was the sole witness to the personal side of these deals. Many of these "loans" were actually high-pressure psychological tools. Without Barry there to testify about the verbal conditions, the intent, or the missed payments, a debtor can tie the estate up in court for a decade by claiming Barry had verbally forgiven the debt or changed the terms before he died. In a massive estate, trustees often settle for pennies on the dollar just to stop paying their own lawyers. A trustee’s fiduciary duty is to the beneficiaries, not to the abstract concept of the debt. If the heirs (the new beneficiaries) don't want to sue their own cousin or a family friend for a loan, they can instruct the trustees to settle the debt for a nominal amount or "write it off" as uncollectible. Barry was the only one with the ego and the drive to actually hit the "sue" button; the heirs are often much more likely to want the drama to end.

A desperate debtor doesn't need the debt to vanish legally forever; they just need the immediate pressure to stop. The law says the debt remains, but the will to enforce it died with Barry, which defines the motive as "strategic paralysis" rather than "legal erasure". In my view, this gap between legal paperwork and street reality is the key to understanding this murder. On paper, a long list of debtors might not look like "winners" because, in theory, the debt still exists. But in reality, once the enforcer is gone, the debt is often effectively dead. All IMHO.

 

[Clue Keeper]

Am I the only one who sees some wicked, morbid sense of humor in the killer? He did it for a reason, not for fun. But it also looks as if he read about Herb Baumeister, the serial ritualistic killer from Indiana, and since the pool was used, he also “ritualized” the positions of the bodies a little bit, to resemble the Shermans’ odd dolls? I think it was a mockery of their poor taste and pretentiousness (after all, they didn’t have taste, did they?) but something else, too.

I think that person should have acerbic humor in life.

In my view, this isn't humor; it is cynical, sadistic, and frankly psychopathic. If the killer staged the bodies to mimic those statues, he wasn't cracking a joke. He was committing an act of total dehumanization.
This staging feels like the work of someone who spent years feeling small or "less than" in Barry’s presence. It’s a "final word" from someone who hated their success and wanted to mock it. This kind of staging is meant to traumatize whoever finds them. A cynical sadist doesn't just want the victim dead; they want the survivors and the public to be haunted by a grotesque image. That level of calculated cruelty actually points away from the Sherman children.
JMO

 

[planet]

In my view, this isn't humor; it is cynical, sadistic, and frankly psychopathic. If the killer staged the bodies to mimic those statues, he wasn't cracking a joke. He was committing an act of total dehumanization.
This staging feels like the work of someone who spent years feeling small or "less than" in Barry’s presence. It’s a "final word" from someone who hated their success and wanted to mock it. JM

The placement and location of the bodies is the main reason I'm transfixed by the case. For example, they were not found in separate rooms or hallways, dropped where they were killed. The killer went to great trouble to place them together. Why?

No other feature--the size of the estate, Barry's business practices, the social standing of the Shermans, their philanthropic activities, or the documented antagonism among family members--engages me to the same degree.

The scene seems remarkably personal and vindictive. That leads me nowhere, because I don't know anyone in their circles. It simply suggests this was an atypical act of violence, intended to accomplish more than just ending two lives.

 

[Charlot123]

In my view, this isn't humor; it is cynical, sadistic, and frankly psychopathic. If the killer staged the bodies to mimic those statues, he wasn't cracking a joke. He was committing an act of total dehumanization.
This staging feels like the work of someone who spent years feeling small or "less than" in Barry’s presence. It’s a "final word" from someone who hated their success and wanted to mock it. This kind of staging is meant to traumatize whoever finds them. A cynical sadist doesn't just want the victim dead; they want the survivors and the public to be haunted by a grotesque image. That level of calculated cruelty actually points away from the Sherman children.
JMO

Honestly, I suspect children as much, or as little, as other people close to the Shermans. But it was someone who was close, and also, intensely disliked/maybe envied the Shermans. That staging was the ultimate mockery.

I think it the murders were sadistic because, after all, two elderly people were brutally killed in own home.

The staging i view as self-serving. But I can imagine the type of a person who'd do it, although I don't have my own suspect. And I see why you call it psychopathic, although I think the killer is more than that.

 

[Clue Keeper]

The placement and location of the bodies is the main reason I'm transfixed by the case. For example, they were not found in separate rooms or hallways, dropped where they were killed. The killer went to great trouble to place them together. Why?

No other feature--the size of the estate, Barry's business practices, the social standing of the Shermans, their philanthropic activities, or the documented antagonism among family members--engages me to the same degree.

The scene seems remarkably personal and vindictive. That leads me nowhere, because I don't know anyone in their circles. It simply suggests this was an atypical act of violence, intended to accomplish more than just ending two lives.

"The killer went to great trouble to place them together. Why?"
That's right, forensic details of how Honey was moved proves the killer had to be physically capable of dragging her through the house. This means Barry was likely forced to watch the staging of his wife's body before his own end... How cruel! This also suggests the killer stayed in the house for a long time after the deaths.

In my view, the decision to place them together was the most high-risk part of the entire crime, and it serves two very specific purposes: one tactical and one psychological. From a "cunning" perspective, the killer needed the police to see a tragedy, not a crime scene. By dragging them to a single location and posing them together, the killer created a single visual narrative. This was a calculated move to ensure the initial investigation was slow.

Moving a body is physically intimate and difficult work. Doing it twice suggests a killer who was "transfixed" by their own power. In my view, this points to a debtor or rival who felt suffocated by Barry in life--someone who lived in the Shermans' orbit close enough to be "invisible," smart enough to know the law, and cold enough to treat a double murder like a business transaction.

This video provides a deep dive into the private investigation's findings that eventually debunked the suicide theory and exposed the staging.

 

[WINDSOR]

"Moving a body is physically intimate and difficult work. Doing it twice suggests a killer who was "transfixed" by their own power. In my view, this points to a debtor or rival who felt suffocated by Barry in life--someone who lived in the Sherman's orbit close enough to be "invisible," smart enough to know the law, and cold enough to treat a double murder like a business transaction."

Clue Keeper, very insightful, thanks. I feel there are two distinct parties involved though. The killer(s) who had no emotional involvement with the Sherman's and the perpetrator(s) who hired the killers and were heavily emotionally involved with the Sherman's.

The perpetrator(s) may have been present at the killings, but I cannot think of any of the Sherman's circle of friends and family who would have the physical and emotional ability to do the killings themselves.

"a debtor or rival who felt suffocated by Barry in life" This could be a very short list of people.

MOO

 

[ldlager]

"The killer went to great trouble to place them together. Why?"
That's right, forensic details of how Honey was moved proves the killer had to be physically capable of dragging her through the house. This means Barry was likely forced to watch the staging of his wife's body before his own end... How cruel! This also suggests the killer stayed in the house for a long time after the deaths.

In my view, the decision to place them together was the most high-risk part of the entire crime, and it serves two very specific purposes: one tactical and one psychological. From a "cunning" perspective, the killer needed the police to see a tragedy, not a crime scene. By dragging them to a single location and posing them together, the killer created a single visual narrative. This was a calculated move to ensure the initial investigation was slow.

Moving a body is physically intimate and difficult work. Doing it twice suggests a killer who was "transfixed" by their own power. In my view, this points to a debtor or rival who felt suffocated by Barry in life--someone who lived in the Shermans' orbit close enough to be "invisible," smart enough to know the law, and cold enough to treat a double murder like a business transaction.

This video provides a deep dive into the private investigation's findings that eventually debunked the suicide theory and exposed the staging.

“…That's right, forensic details of how Honey was moved proves the killer had to be physically capable of dragging her through the house…”

Can you please advise what forensic evidence you are aware of that indicates that HS was dragged through the house?

 

[INSP MORSE]

It is my understanding that if Honey lived, the money goes into a trust for her benefit. The estate would not go to the four children.

You can imagine Barry being murdered and Honey still alive, she would go to the ends of the earth to find the perpetrator. Plus there would not be any money going to the kids to build a new arena.

If it was not about the money, Honey could live, but if it was about the money Honey had to die.

MOO

I do not believe the bodies were intended to be staged to look like murder suicide. That's because they were wearing their coats pulled down around their arms. Why would barry pull his own coat down before hanging himself? The perpetrator would not have left the coats in that position if they wanted it to look like suicide.

I believe the bodies were staged but to look like the statues as a way of mocking the shermans in death.

 

[Professor Moriarty]

I do not believe the bodies were intended to be staged to look like murder suicide. That's because they were wearing their coats pulled down around their arms. Why would barry pull his own coat down before hanging himself? The perpetrator would not have left the coats in that position if they wanted it to look like suicide.

I believe the bodies were staged but to look like the statues as a way of mocking the shermans in death.

I agree they were probably not staged to look like murder suicide. If the police thought that it was murder suicide, I don't know why they thought that. Even apart from the issue of the coats, how could BS have strangled himself in that way and why would he have his legs crossed? Irrespective of whether the murderer wanted the Shermans to look like those statues, he wanted to mock them or be disrespectful towards them.

 

[ldlager]

I do not believe the bodies were intended to be staged to look like murder suicide. That's because they were wearing their coats pulled down around their arms. Why would barry pull his own coat down before hanging himself? The perpetrator would not have left the coats in that position if they wanted it to look like suicide.

I believe the bodies were staged but to look like the statues as a way of mocking the shermans in death.

Early on, in the early days after the crimes, the coats being pulled back were in fact believed by some to be strong evidence of M/S. It was speculated Barry would have positioned his coat in that way to make it impossible or certainly very difficult for him to use his arms to escape from the belt around his neck once the belt was attached.
LE subsequently declared it a double homicide, but I suspect that there are still members of LE and other people (in addition to KW) who still believe it was a M/S.
I do not recall if the photos KD claims to have seen of the bodies ( and the drawings created by a Star illustrator thereafter) show Barry’s coat being pulled back. I am hopeful DOTR or another skilled poster here has easy access to those drawings.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Early on, in the early days after the crimes, the coats being pulled back were in fact believed by some to be strong evidence of M/S. It was speculated Barry would have positioned his coat in that way to make it impossible or certainly very difficult for him to use his arms to escape from the belt around his neck once the belt was attached.
LE subsequently declared it a double homicide, but I suspect that there are still members of LE and other people (in addition to KW) who still believe it was a M/S.
I do not recall if the photos KD claims to have seen of the bodies ( and the drawings created by a Star illustrator thereafter) show Barry’s coat being pulled back. I am hopeful DOTR or another skilled poster here has easy access to those drawings.

The Star’s images of the crime scene weren’t very detailed. (Purposefully, imo).

Warning—sensitive illustration of the deceased.


Illustration from paywalled Star article.
www.thestar.com/news/canada/large-amount-of-cash-found-in-honey-and-barry-sherman-s-wallets-ruled-out-a/article_e1b1b8e6-1b30-50a7-b1b2-0aa9ea7278dc.html

From an old post I made about what has been reported about the pool room: Canada - Barry & Honey Sherman, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 MEDIA, MAPS & TIMELINE *NO DISCUSSION*

Quote from another Star Article (very lengthy):

“…the Shermans were seated on the pool deck floor. The photos show some tension from the belts around their necks but not enough (forensic sources have told me) to cause death by suicide, given their positioning. There was simply not enough weight on the belts to cause death….

…The location of the bodies is the most remote part of the Sherman house, and the pool was rarely used — the water was green, the pool cover was on, and the room had not been cleaned for three weeks. My speculation is that this area was chosen so that it would be a considerable amount of time before they were discovered…

…In the photos I have seen there are what appear to be faint drag marks on the tiled floors, possibly from the heels of one of the Shermans’ shoes, which end at the bodies. From the police documents, we know that the Sherman cleaning staff had not visited the room for three weeks, so the faint marks were likely made in dust on the floor.

The bodies have been placed in such a manner that someone walking in would see Honey first, then Barry, on the other side of Honey.

There is a three-foot-high chrome safety railing along the side of the pool where the Shermans were found. As the police documents detail, and the photos show, the Shermans are tied to the railing with men’s leather belts…

…(Honey) is fully dressed, wearing dark pants, a blouse and a blue vest. <note: that is what she was reportedly wearing when last seen alive on December 13th> Her rear end is on the floor, her legs stretched out in front. Her shoes, simple black slip-ons,…are almost touching the wall that faces the pool. Police, in their interviews with Sherman family and friends, asked if it was their mother’s practice to take her shoes off when she came home. The children were uncertain.

Seated on the floor, she is tipped back at the waist to a position that I estimate from the photos is a 20- to 30-degree angle. (Ninety degrees would be seated upright.) The belt that is looped around her neck has its pressure point at the back of her neck. Decomposition (the bodies were there for 36 hours) could account for her body shifting down somewhat, but likely not too much…

…In Honey’s case, and Barry’s as well, the free end of the belt is looped through the buckle and cinched around the neck, and the free end is tied tightly to the railing, keeping them from falling backwards into the pool. On the pool railing near where Honey’s belt is tied there is a small smear of blood. There is also a smear of blood on the breast of a blue vest she is wearing. The information I have seen does not say whose blood it is.

Some media reports have said that Honey’s face looked like she was the victim of a severe beating. That is not the case. There is a mark on one cheek, but it is minor. There isblood on her face, but it appears to have come from her nose as a result of the strangulation that killed her.

Barry is situated on the other side of Honey. He is attached to the angled railing a little bit farther back, which explains why, though he is taller than Honey, his feet are roughly one foot from the wall. He, too, is wearing his shoes. His right leg is crossed over the other at the ankle. He is wearing his glasses...

…Like Honey, Barry is seated, rear end on the pool deck, his torso tipped back but at a less severe angle than Honey. His head is slumped forward slightly, with the belt tension under his chin…

…Sources say that based on an examination of the crime scene, it is most likely that the Shermans were not killed at the spot where they were found. One theory is that Honey was surprised on the main floor when she arrived home that night, and killed there and brought down to the basement swimming pool room.”

The Star saw the Sherman crime-scene and autopsy photos. How could a pathologist and police call it a murder-suicide?​

Photos, notes raise new questions about how investigators made their mistaken determination in the Barry and Honey Sherman case.

www.thestar.com

ETA: The post reminded of a detail about the pool room. It was the only part of the home that was completely underground with no floor above. The tennis courts were above.

 

[fadedglitter]

Donovan initially reported that Barry’s coat was pulled down, immobilizing his arms. He has since gotten a better look at the crime scene photos and has changed his interpretation. He noticed that Barry’s back is against the railing support and his coat is bunched up because of the way he’s positioned.

I’m not sure the “coat pulled down” detail survives scrutiny if the only person who claimed this happened is now saying otherwise.

 

[Clue Keeper]

"Can you please advise what forensic evidence you are aware of that indicates that HS was dragged through the house?"


The Case of Billionaire Couple Honey and Barry Sherman


The Sherman family ... went ahead and hired their own forensic pathologist to do a second autopsy on the bodies.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

"Can you please advise what forensic evidence you are aware of that indicates that HS was dragged through the house?"

The Case of Billionaire Couple Honey and Barry Sherman

The Sherman family ... went ahead and hired their own forensic pathologist to do a second autopsy on the bodies.

Sorry—but can you quote the information exactly? It’s not in that article, and that information is new to me. I don’t recognize the YouTube creator, her video is one hour, and it’s not a MSM source.

 

[wibbleflea]

Sorry—but can you quote the information exactly? It’s not in that article, and that information is new to me. I don’t recognize the YouTube creator, her video is one hour, and it’s not a MSM source.

I’m not the OP and haven’t seen anything about HS being dragged through the house but KD mentions a possible drag mark in the pool room in E11 of the Billionaire Murders (season 2 of Suspicion) about 14 minutes in. Transcript, possibly machine generated:

Looking closely at the crime scene photos, I can see what appears to be a faint drag mark leading up to where Honey is positioned. Investigators theorize that Barry was carried by two people, but possibly just one of the attackers dragged Honey, with the soles of her shoe or heel making that drag mark.

Suspicion - S2 The Billionaire Murders | E11 Gift Bags and Blood Stains Part 2 Transcript and Discussion

 

[Professor Moriarty]

Whatever the position of BS coat, it still seems strange that it could be considered murder suicide. And with his legs crossed?

 

[Charlot123]

Whatever the position of BS coat, it still seems strange that it could be considered murder suicide. And with his legs crossed?

People who knew them noted that Barry was rather frail. Honey had two knee replacement surgeries but was a pretty strong woman. So if anything, the possibility could be of Honey killing Barry. But, dragging a body downstairs and that far? Impossible.

I think neither of them could have the physical strength, and I don't understand how the theory of M/S emerged.

 

[fadedglitter]

The drag marks are very faint, are in the dust on the pool room floor, and end at the bodies. No information has ever been made public about drag marks elsewhere in the house.

If anyone was dragged anywhere else, there isn’t evidence of it in the public domain. Without evidence I think it’s super irresponsible to suggest it.

 

[Charlot123]

The drag marks are very faint, are in the dust on the pool room floor, and end at the bodies. No information has ever been made public about drag marks elsewhere in the house.

If anyone was dragged anywhere else, there isn’t evidence of it in the public domain. Without evidence I think it’s super irresponsible to suggest it.

@fadedglitter, but I was going back to “alleged” M/S theory that was initially proposed by the police and is, of course, wrong.

If, however, the Shermans were killed upstairs, and from many descriptions it would seem that “upstairs” is more likely, how could they be moved downstairs?

Another question: were they killed upstairs? Why the trace of Velcro on their wrists? Was it antemortem or postmortem?

Someone had to know their habits, schedule and the construction of the house too well.

Does anyone remember for how long they had the house? Were the kids raised there? Did they remodel it after the kids moved out? The cleaning people, how long were the current ones employed and what happened to the previous ones?

I am thinking that either the cleaning people or the rental agents would have the best idea about the layout. Also, since the house was on sale, was the inspection done?

I am thinking about someone else than the kids, tbh. Someone had to have the intimate knowledge of the “corners” of the house.