Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[Woodland]

Orora - you say ' by all indications Christine's remains were left overnight during the storm...' Just looking for the link.

 

[Chorley8]

Chorley8 - have not commented to you or anyone on a search of the Jessop home the night CJ went missing.

Thanks for correction Woodland sorry.

And answering Orora thanks for your reply very helpful and of course no pressure - I guess my small added point is the idea that the killer couldn't bear to have the remains buried tended them UP TO the snowstorm hence no debris and the site tended but with the impending storm they needed to draw attention they have some need to have them displayed or found probably both and just to declare this is then an amateur psychology hypothesis/opinion of mine.

Then who discovered the later fragments is less the point at this moment to me than the fact that the site was tended possibly again later. Which to me overall increases potential importance of that find date.

 

[orora]

I explained, I could be wrong on all counts. Was responding more in context Chorley's theory in regard that the dog led to Christine the day before a predicted impending storm. She was left overnight I believed. That dog may have been two days before the storm actually arrived. If you know, go ahead and correct. I haven't gone in search of the exact times just a general time frame answer in regard the main point Chorley was making. Not stuck on that exact time. If you can supply the proper info for Chorley, sure he would appreciate it.

 

[Woodland]

It would be better Orora if you would correct the misinformation you tend to provide from time to time - it's unfair, imo, to leave that to me.

Is there a source that states Christine was left lying in a snowstorm after she was found or not?

The Kaufman Report and Redrum both give similar accounts that she was at the coroner's office in Toronto by 8:00 pm on the day she was found.

 

[orora]

Well W I explained my perceptions in regard to and in context a theory. I could go back and check the exact details but it sufficed for the intended purpose in regard the weather forcast being known. You or anyone else was welcome to correct anything and could have. Common procedure in any forum.

Sorry Chorley, I do agree your little point is worthy of consideration, I probably answered a little too quickly and may address it again when I get more time. Have a pain in my left buttock at the moment.

Added, W is absolutely correct and good we have her here to keep us all on the straight and narrow.

It was recommended by one officer the crime scene be preserved over night but that was not done.. If the storm had actually moved in by evening is a bit unclear. It was overcast in the morning and worsening as the day went by. Moving away from the point being made but I suppose for the sake of clarity I should leave some link to appease any discontent. Not really adding to your point though Chorley.. next time
http://www.aidwyc.org/Documents/Inquiries/Kaufman%20Inquiry/Kaufman_Report_Vol2.pdf

It was New Year’s Eve; a severe storm was predicted for that evening.
Detective Fitzpatrick testified that he suggested to Inspector Brown that a
tarpaulin be used to cover the area of the remains until the next day. This was
not done. No tarp or tent was erected to protect the site from the impending
storm. Inspector Brown determined that, considering the vegetation, tenting
the area would be difficult without cutting down saplings and, perhaps,
contaminating the scene further. He testified that he had discussions with the
identification officers, who assured him that officers could clear the body site,
before leaving, of any and all evidence that was retrievable. In fact, at the end
of the day, the search was not yet complete.Considering the inclement weather, the decision not to protect the site
CHAPTER V: THE DURHAM INVESTIGATION AND THE PROSECUTION 683
was imprudent, and there was insufficient time to preserve all possible
evidence before the area was fully covered by snow and ice. It is to Detective
Fitzpatrick’s credit that he made the suggestion to take the necessary steps
to preserve the site so that the search could be continued the following day
and, I am sure, it must be a matter of regret for Inspector Brown — indeed,
he said so — not to have followed Fitzpatrick’s advice. I understand that
making arrangements of this kind is not always easy, and getting a tent on
New Year’s Eve might have been difficult, if not impossible. But even a
tarpaulin would have gone a long way to protect the ground. Unfortunately,
this was not done.

 

[KJessop]

Ok. I have addressed most of the questions, but will again.
The abuse issue I have always been honest with.
I am going to take a few days.
Watching the pain on t.v. has really affected me.
Innocents, Take time off this forum and hug your kids if you have them.
Spend the time you would spend here with them.
This case will wait.
Be thankful.
As I am to have my son in my life.
Now is not the time.
Even if you think it might be. It isn't for me.
I will answer.
Give a thought and prayer to the families suffering.
They need it now.
Christines case can wait a few days.

 

[Chorley8]

Orora thanks I guess for my point whether it did snow or didn't and the date of recovery before during after wouldn't be important - I am just tying to link together a psychology of someone who would 1. not only kidnap a child and kill them but display a body then 2. tend a body keeping it uncovered 3. hope for its dramatic discovery by some unfortunate 4. then be moved to action when they saw it would be covered (with snow) in the coming hours quite possibly. So it is state of mind up to the snowfall I am getting at.

And again for this point it would not matter who made the later discovery or on what intuition but it would show evidence of the the perpetrator's devotion or addiction to the scene. (So just to be clear I don't mean her brother here though I obviously realize it was he who had the dream intuition).

(Sorry no doubt I could have been clearer!!)

I think this says loads about him if it could be confirmed reasonably. At the scene itself everything is (finally) a fait accompli at the moment of discovery...until the later insane intervention if that is what it was.

I don't want to misattribute again this evening but someone before maybe not here exactly has brought up the similarities between L. Tomlinson and this case. The more I have been thinking about the crazy injuries and had said no other case matches the more I have had to think there is that one case at least that matches. I do not know if they still think that though it was a while ago.

 

[KJessop]

Her body was removed before the storm. In their haste the bones fell off. It was not a snowstorm, it was an ice storm. They should have covered the scene with tarps. They came back the next day with propane burners that would have destroyed all evidence around the site.

 

[KJessop]

Hopefully this ends the arguement of how her bones fell off the plywood...
For us to find

At approximately 4:30 that afternoon, Durham officers placed the remains of Christine Jessop on a four-by-eight foot painted piece of plywood which had come from the Durham police laboratory for use for this purpose. Sergeant Michalowsky used a shovel to loosen the ground around the remains. Officers attempted to slide the board under the body and balled clothing surrounding it in order to interfere with the remains as little as possible and gather some of the soil surrounding the remains. The head portion of the body was placed on the board, separate from the torso. The officers found it necessary to lift up various parts of the body while physically attempting to ‘shimmy’ the board underneath the remains. In the process, the skeletal remains were not placed in precisely the same position as they were when they were lying on the ground. While every effort was made to be as careful and precise as possible, Sergeant Michalowsky testified during the first trial that some rib bones had been beyond the width of the board and had to
be picked up and placed on the edge of the board by hand.

 

[KJessop]

This is from the Inquiry report...

 

[KJessop]

Orora...
I had dreams of a wooded area with the wind blowing through the trees, starting the night of the funeral. I woke up with the horrible feeling that "my sister wasn't all buried".
I had it every night. My parents told the police, there were reports. We kept being reassured they buried all of her. The first time the whole family was at the site we found the bones.
If it hadn't happened to me I wouldn't believe it. Or would think worse. I wish it never happened.
But in another way I think it was my sister telling me. And it turned out to be true.
There was no premonition, just a repetitive dream of a place I had never been.
I can't explain it. But I was right.

 

[orora]

Thanks for sharing that Ken. I like to hear of things like you speak of here even if I can't understand how all that works. I've been around long enough to know things like that do happen and most always have a reason behind them. If the dreams had persisted beyond finding and reuniting the bones, I would perhaps inquire if there was more to be learned from those dreams. Hidden clues left deep inside not just of the bones but of who and how. But, the dreams ended and I believe you listened well and accomplished the purpose left you. Awesome!

 

[orora]

Chorley, I did get what you meant, you did explain it quite well, I just answered too fast to do much good for your purpose. Must admit to wondering much of the same. Put together like that with more deliberatness attached to various seemingly unconnected events is food for thought.

Chorley 8-

I am just tying to link together a psychology of someone who would 1. not only kidnap a child and kill them but display a body then 2. tend a body keeping it uncovered 3. hope for its dramatic discovery by some unfortunate 4. then be moved to action when they saw it would be covered (with snow) in the coming hours quite possibly. So it is state of mind up to the snowfall I am getting at.

 

[KJessop]

I had nothing to listen to... I heard no voices, received no secret messages. All I had was a strong feeling my sister wasn't all buried. In the second trial pretrial motions I was accused of making it up.... Till YRP found a report they took from my mother because I was so persistent. Durham wouldn't even listen so my mother phoned YRP.. But of course that wasn't published in any book.

 

[vasportsmom]

I had nothing to listen to... I heard no voices, received no secret messages. All I had was a strong feeling my sister wasn't all buried. In the second trial pretrial motions I was accused of making it up.... Till YRP found a report they took from my mother because I was so persistent. Durham wouldn't even listen so my mother phoned YRP.. But of course that wasn't published in any book.

It really saddens me that you were put through so much after your sister's death. My G-d, you were but a child yourself and did not deserve the hostile treatment it sounds like you received. I sincerely hope you have been able to find much happiness in life now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KJessop]

I went through way more b4 she went missing... I am now 42. I will correct wrongs here vigorously. I am happy in my life now. I am here only to try and get the facts out.
I don't care what you think of me. But my sister, I will defend her memory till the day I die. If I don't know something I will say I don't know. This has been my life for 28 years. I obsessed, I gathered every bit of info, have kept her memory out there no matter what cost to myself. I have been attacked, beaten, spit on and treated like a molester. People read the two inch headline on the frontpage of the Toronto sun "Jessop Raped Sister" But the day after Morins conviction, very few saw the retraction and full page interview in page 5. And so is my life.
Every one remembers the sensational. Not the quiet apologies and retractions. The only news outlet never to do it was the star. Tracey Tyler now dead had all the stories on file. They asked me to be a part of the article with my mother. I said no. So they made up a story.. ie my father... Without doing research just read her articles from the past and tried to make my mother more sympathetic.
As I said the Star reporter wanted me part of the article. I told him I don't and never have trusted the star. And what happened is exactly why.
I could never tell you everything that happened. I would be typing for years. I try and tell you. The things I could tell you would scare the **** out of you. What the police did, the crowns, the defence. This case would shake the foundations. Thats why tips go unresearched. Even if they found a dna match, they could never go to trial, no one knows what evidence is true or manufactured. Which witness's were threatened// Yes I said threatened....
At this point I just want the truth to come forward, the inquiry was a joke. It is sad when the lawyers for the victims family, and the accused worked together to try and get the truth. Against 20+ lawyers. I was shocked when James Lockyer stood up on my behalf at the inquiry. My mother and I brought things forward and got ripped apart by lawyers for people that were supposedly on our side for 10 years.
They covered their asses... We just wanted the truth to be known.
I have always come forward. I didn't care about me. It was about Christine. Same here.
Where do we go from here? Keep arguing over minutia?
Or band together to get answers?
The police got a gut feeling about Morin, Dropped 4 or more viable suspects. And built a case. Got a scientist to plant her sweater hairs on evidence to tie it all together. And a memo in the CFS b4 Morins first trial stated everyone knew. And it was buried. Forget spatting about facts in dispute anyways, Focus attention on the real criminals. And ask for real answers. We can argue over the past forever.
Lets put pressure and get real answers.
My tip was ignored, and when I proved they tested the wrong man they just told me I was wrong.
Woodland, your tip was ignored, you pushed. Tweedy told me you were nuts. And I told you they would not respond to you.
In the last few weeks, 2 more people have come to me privately with the same complaint. Both told the police to talk to me about their suspects. Police never did. Why?
Metro claimed they took over 300 dna samples. Yet not one male I knew in queensville was tested. Yet Metro claimed they tested every male in the area. My abuser was not charged because his uncle was a Metro Staff Sargent. Then after therapy helped me remember more, I went to metro and told them the person who actually ran it and abused my abuser. It was the Staff Sargent, now co lead detective of metro's son. When I told Tweedy, you would have thought someone put a turd under his nose. Never investigated.
I have been answering questions here and will. But my "mission" has changed.
I know no answer will ever be found.
I want to know why.

 

[KJessop]

Thank you Kimster for hearing me out and reopening the forum.

 

[orora]

KJ

Where do we go from here? Keep arguing over minutia?
Or band together to get answers?

Most everyone who comes to this thread has been around awhile and knows how things have gone in the past. I believe you have the right take on all of this Ken and we all need to get together somehow. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. Everyone has something to add to the mix. Getting everyone on the same page and going in the same direction could pay off hugely.

Looking beyond the individual trees is a requirement at some point to grasp the full breadth of the forest. I get the impression not everything is as it seems here even for a wrongful conviction case. Precedents were set and the actions of the judiciary were exposed in a manner most Canadians were unaware could be exploited to this degree.

This is a good article on the wrongdoing with allegations it went way beyond any possibility of being accidental.
http://ahabit.com/anatomy/

The judge did everything he possibly could, through gesture and demeanour, to make it perfectly clear that Guy Paul Morin was the only potential criminal in his courtroom. He even relaxed the practice of wearing judicial robes in court and wore a turtleneck sweater instead. As soon as Michalowsky walked in, he extended him a warm handshake, "something that judges do not do to witnesses."52 The jurors joined the informal judge and defence counsel in a semi-circle in the courtroom to hear Sergeant Michalowsky, a man who had evidently been granted a license to commit perjury without the fear of reproof, give evidence in an atmosphere which was more akin to a group therapy session, than to a serious trial. Clayton Ruby appropriately sighed; "Ah, justice. Elusive isn't it?"

 

[orora]

Just a side note coming around full circle in regard the minutia; all those details and even Chorley's latest theory the crime scene was meant to be found, the perp wanted it found.. If and why still a mystery.

As I understand it, by virtue of where Christine's remains were found, the investigation was taken away from Queensville jurisdiction and taken over by another. Durham? Is there any connections between the Police officer identified in the above abuse continuum and the Police investigation after the discovery?

In regard where someone leaves a body, many articles have been written and the fbi has weighed in heavily on the subject. Is there any connection to consider here other than what the juridiction change may have accomplished? This is just one quote from a discussion about where bodies are left and by whom.

The article quoted below was actually in regard the opposite scenario where the bodies are so well concealed they are never found. Interesting to contemplate in regard Chorley's theory, Christine was meant to be found. If so, what does that mean?
from- http://www.nobodycases.com/tips.pdf

Apart from ensuring his/her escape from the scene of a crime, the murderers greatest challenge is to avoid subsequent detection by disposing of the victim’s body. The short-term aim may simply be to conceal the fact that a crime as been committed for long enough to guarantee a comfortable getaway, but the long-term aim is to prevent the body ever being found or identified. That way the murderer’s chances of being forensically linked to a criminal act are greatly reduced. Research into murder cases has indicated that where there is an established relationship between the victim – missing person there is more concealed deposition of the body. In simple terms why would a stranger need to spend time with the disposal of a victim’s body if in the normal course of a police investigation that person could not be connected to the victim by enquiry? A number of stranger killers have concealed the bodies of their victims in order to prevent them from being forensically linked to the crime. It has been noted that since the introduction of the National DNA Database that instances of concealed deposition of a victim’s body have increased.
Few acts of the murderer show such dedication and ingenuity as the disposal of the victim’s body and few tasks are so awesome. The human body is surprisingly durable, and its destruction without trace is extremely difficult to achieve. Disposing of human remains poses two important problems of which the murderer often takes too little account. Firstly, dead bodies decompose and give rise to a very detectable smell, and secondly, the sheer bulk of the human frame makes disposal a difficult task.If in the course of an enquiry a suspect is known then a full background investigation of that individual is an essential element when considering a concealed deposition of the body. This should include all areas used or known to that individual in order that a search strategy can be developed which considers all the most probable areas for a concealed deposition of a victim – missing persons body. There are very few cases nationally where a body has been disposed of randomly. The offenders in these cases go to great lengths to cut down the risks of detection by choosing an area for deposition that they are familiar with, knowing what or whom they are likely to encounter at the time of deposition. By ensuring that a suspects background is fully investigated at the outset enables all search activity to be intelligently led.

 

[WINDSOR]

I think there are only two issues to deal with.

1) Who was the person who molested C and K Jessop prior to Christine's abduction

2) Was JP (name redacted) the abductor or complicit in the abduction of Christine Jessop.

With JP (name redacted), his body should be exhumed and tested for DNA. This will end speculation. A judge in Ontario can order this.

With the molester, who K Jessop has identified, charges should be laid. If necessary these charges should come from the Attorney General of Ontario,
Or the opposition party in the legislature should ask why not?

Everything else from my point of view is superfluous.


MOO