CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #2

[Belly]

There is nowhere yet that says they took the child. Only info is from his statement.

However CPS is required to inform him they have the child if they do have it.

Based on what is written that he said it’s not impossible that he saw rumours on social media and went to CPS to check and they just gave him a blanket answer that they don’t provide information about children in their custody.

I understand the reporters being sensitive about the situation but I feel there is some follow up questions that could be asked that would lessen the need for speculation and if he is innocent he would have no issue answering.

Cas has options. I can only speak to Ontario. But we have situations where Cas has legal custody that’s standard foster care, kin in care (placed with a family member that has passed all foster home training and home safety standards) or customary care (for indigenous children to be placed with someone that is indigenous that passed all foster home training and home safety standards). The advantage with customer care is a member of the band consults ongoing with cas, in a way bearing witness and making sure cas treats the parents/child fairly and with support. The child can also be kept out of care, kinship out of care, placed with a close friend or family member and overseen by cas and a bit less formal.

Cas is never required to give tell where the child is. The father would’ve been served legal notice though, to tell him they have the child and the emergency custody hearing is within five days in Ontario. The parents have a right to attend that court date and plead to the judge on why the child should be returned to them. CAS will be required to support and try to encourage the parents to rectify whatever parenting mistakes were made in support of child reunification. As the baby is under 6, they only have a year to do this if in Ontario. There’s essentially a clock on the parents or the child goes for adoption. In addition, cas is required to facilitate access visits with the parents IF the parents are safe and healthy to do so. This does not necessarily mean in person visits. This could be a letter or a phonecall.

Globe and Mail is reporting, according to him, that he had a friend drive him to the child protection office to inquire about the child. So that tells me he wasn’t legally served a court date notice as of that statement date.

 

[aajimo]

Interesting. I’m Canadian as well. Without getting into specific details, how have you seen police here in Canada say that to victims?

I can’t recall even one court case which I’ve followed where media comments have came into play, for or against. It’s evidence of committing the crime that supports a conviction, not merely words.

While I don’t want to divulge specific details of my job, my work involves interacting often with people who are victims

That sounds more like civil? with a 2 yr statute of limitations. Crown Prosecutors here have an ethical duty to prosecute if evidence permits. for many reasons but one reason is that they have an ethical obligation to maintain the publics faith in the justice system.
I know all you Americans are probably laughing right now because Canada is known for being lax. lol
I havent heard of them throwing out a case b/c of time, or for fear of losing on a technicality, They do consider likelihood of conviction?

2.2 Duties and Responsibilities of Crown Counsel - PPSC

Department of Justice Canada's Internet site

www.ppsc-sppc.gc.ca

Look up Jordan decision. It applies to criminal matters. The accused has the right to be tried within a reasonable time. That’s 18 months for most things. This is well documented.

Nearly 800 criminal cases thrown out over delays since 2016 Jordan decision​

 

[Beans]

I genuinely think it is just an accident. I think people are dwelling on the argument too much (what young couple hasn't argued before?) and I can't imagine the guilt of the parents that this happened while they were arguing.

There is also a discussion on CBC with a criminal expert who goes over some of the data, and he says in the database, only 0.3% of wilderness searches like this one end up being criminal in nature (vs. 4% of urban searches).

Just considering the area, and the young age of the missing children, it just makes sense to me they got lost and the parents are now grieving that. Statistically, it also seems unlikely that they are responsible.

Here is the Q&A with the expert if you guys are interested, it goes into much greater depth:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/missing-person-expert-lansdowne-station-search-1.7531338

I'd ask what his definition of "wilderness searches like this one" is in this context. I can't imagine it would comfortably include wilderness searches involving two children from the same residence who disappeared without trace after having a couple of days absence from school.

 

[ttjo]

While I don’t want to divulge specific details of my job, my work involves interacting often with people who are victims

Look up Jordan decision. It applies to criminal matters. The accused has the right to be tried within a reasonable time. That’s 18 months for most things. This is well documented.

Nearly 800 criminal cases thrown out over delays since 2016 Jordan decision​

ok I get jordans rule is not just for indigenous, and then there is. jordan principle that is,
This is what bothers me, we do want people to be educated about all this stuff, but I wish they wouldnt make it so confusing, Make it so people want to learn about it.

 

[ginestra]

I feel if they got lost, there would of been a scent. The scent stopped at the driveway. This we know. So that points to they didn't leave on foot.

 

[ginestra]

Is that inaccurate? I am looking back.....I will delete if need be

 

[Warden23]

Thank you for your information. That being the case, I simply cannot imagine how two small children could have gotten so far away that they haven't been found.

The bush is very, very thick and boggy. They either aren't there at all, hid under deadfall, or are buried. We can look at the case of Kevin Graves, for example, a man who went missing at a music festival and was found six years later on the festival grounds, a couple of hundred feet from the road, just because the bush is so dense.

 

[Warden23]

I feel if they got lost, there would of been a scent. The scent stopped at the driveway. This we know. So that points to they didn't leave on foot.

It's been rainy. That screws with the scent a lot.

 

[Jmoose]

The bit where he says ‘… probably continue to look for the rest of my life…’ That stuck out and it bothers me for some reason

You’d expect him to say that he’d continue to search until they are found, right?

 

[Jmoose]

I've been following this as a Canadian, and from everything I've read it sounds like an accident plain and simple. I don't know how many of you have been to Truro, Nova Scotia, but I have family property in Cape Breton and we always drive through this community (and stopped there once overnight).

It's small-town Nova Scotia, which is to say it is very rural. Their house opens directly into wilderness. It makes total sense that these kids just wandered off while their parents were distracted. I grew up on a similar property in rural Ontario with my younger brother, and we were always roaming around the woods.

The kids have been missing a while, in the woods during spring when it can get incredibly cold at night here in Canada. The wilderness is not a safe place here, and that might be contributing to any finality from parents, relatives, or the police.

That many days in the elements for young children, assuming no access to food and, more importantly, to water, will usually end badly. I’m not surprised that the police might have come to this conclusion.

 

[Jmoose]

Why did his friend have to drive him to CPS? Does he not have a car?

Maybe Mom and Stepdad only had her car, and when his mother told Mom to leave, she took the only vehicle and left.

 

[seasideForest]

The bush is very, very thick and boggy.

Is the boggy ground wet and soft enough for a child to disappear into? I presume that's unlikely, so that's why I'm asking. My parents always warned us children about bogs, but that wasn't in Canada. I stepped into one accidently as an adult and was in up to my waist in seconds. Fortunately I wasn't alone, so got hauled out.

 

[Warden23]

Is the boggy ground wet and soft enough for a child to disappear into? I presume that's unlikely, so that's why I'm asking. My parents always warned us children about bogs, but that wasn't in Canada. I stepped into one accidently as an adult and was in up to my waist in seconds. Fortunately I wasn't alone, so got hauled out.

Not quite that bad. Enough to suck a boot off, for sure. They wouldn't totally disappear or anything.

ETA the underlayer of the terrain is granite and the peat is above it, and isn't that deep. We're generally talking like 8 to 12 inches, unless you're in an area where it goes full lake, in which case it's just a lake. I've never heard of anyone in distress being stuck here.

 

[seasideForest]

I'd ask what his definition of "wilderness searches like this one" is in this context.

I took that to mean a search for missing persons in a wilderness landscape similar to this one, especially since in the context actually mentioned he is comparing with urban searches. MOO

 

[seasideForest]

Not quite that bad. Enough to suck a boot off, for sure. They wouldn't totally disappear or anything.

ETA the underlayer of the terrain is granite and the peat is above it, and isn't that deep.

OK thanks for clearing that up. Not a possibility then. As opposed to in my parents' home country.

 

[SouthAussie]

The bush is very, very thick and boggy. They either aren't there at all, hid under deadfall, or are buried. We can look at the case of Kevin Graves, for example, a man who went missing at a music festival and was found six years later on the festival grounds, a couple of hundred feet from the road, just because the bush is so dense.

We have a 3 year old (in Aus) who was found 3 days after he went missing - found just 500 metres from their outback property in rugged terrain.

Huge searches for him, and he was so close. But it still took them 3 days to find him. They only found him because an alert helicopter searcher saw a movement and it was AJ drinking from a muddy puddle.

Little kids can be missed. They curl up and fall asleep. They hide when they hear their name called because they think they might be in trouble for wandering off.

Six days is a short period in which to scale back a search. But these children are likely now deceased if they are lost out there, and it would be a recovery mission now.

imo

Scenes of joy as missing 3yo AJ is found after days of searching

 

[Warden23]

OK thanks for clearing that up. Not a possibility then. As opposed to in my parents' home country.

Honestly that sounds terrifying. I've gotten stuck halfway to my knees and lost my boots, I can't imagine it being deeper than that, jeeze.

 

[CityKid]

A lot of people automatically think that a boyfriend may not be fully engaged in looking after his stepkids. Lots of times, that's okay because the kids have a dad already, so they leave the disciplining or looking after the kids to the mom. Problem is, here on WS we've been reminded over and over again, that that isn't always the case because some moms are more interested in showing their new boyfriend love than their own children and end up being an accomplice in their children's disappearance or deaths. Or are completely unaware of the danger their children are in with their new boyfriends. In this case, the missing children are not only his stepchildren after being with their mother for three years, they are also half-siblings of the toddler so the family connection is greater.

I struggle with the environment these children live in. Their home appears to be a veritable minefield of dangerous and decaying objects strewn around the property. It makes me wonder just how child-proofed the interior is. I also wonder whether the mom feels a lot more pressure regarding the issue of the missing children being members of a First Nation Band. Plus the public perception combined with the historical aspect of missing and murdered aboriginal children and women. There is statistical evidence of greater harm to children within that demographic because of generational trauma that has left a stain on Canada so she fears her children may be taken from her.

Statistics Canada report shows more Indigenous children in care

According to data from the 2021 census, Statistics Canada says more Indigenous children are in care and more have issues with safe housing.

www.aptnnews.ca

BBM for focus. I agree about the property, but the children look very happy, clean, and well cared for. Their school bus driver described them so sweetly too. The disconnect between the mess of their property and their physical appearance is surprising to me. MOO

 

[ASipowicz]

Does anyone know what day of the week the trash runs? Locals, perhaps?

Thank you.

I found the schedule but am not able to copy the link. It says that curb-side pickup on Mondays (Tuesday if Monday is a holiday) for residents in the village of Landsdowne. My question ... is the Martell residence considered to be "in the village?"

 

[Warden23]

BBM for focus. I agree about the property, but the children look very happy, clean, and well cared for. Their school bus driver described them so sweetly too. The disconnect between the mess of their property and their physical appearance is surprising to me. MOO

Agreed. I don't think it's fair to equivalate poverty and rough living conditions to misery.