Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[aphoto]

WOW
Check the twitter feed of the reporter you were there with, I think she said they were...

That’s not the reporter I was there with

 

[scrappinkat]

RCMP followed evidence to locate the suspects. Job well done.

Lol we must have very different concepts of the duties expected of RCMP. Simply finding suspects does not mean the job is done, and it doesn’t mean it’s done well. Wasn’t there a police briefing or article where they even stated the job wasn’t done yet?

 

[dameagatha]

I believe the area has steep terrain. Easier to bring them down to the water than up to the road. Have you read anything about steep terrain on the North side of the Nelson River?

What we know is that personal items were found at 9km. They were found at 8km, one half mile inland in the dense brush.

Maybe 25 meters, maybe 300 meters, hard to say.

View attachment 197677

Such a great map. Excellent graphic display of information.

 

[Gina20]

Intervened as in told RCMP who to consider as suspects and how to pick and choose the evidence to prove it? As in "Ignore the keys!, " shouted Ralph Goodale as he slammed the receiver down on the simpering Assistant Commissioner.?

He intervened to request military assistance.

People forget that the RCMP is accountable to government.

But you should be the screenwriter for the movie.

 

[10ofRods]

Well, the G&M is considered Canada's newspaper of record; it is usually pretty bang on with the accuracy as well. Time will tell with these deets, but they broke AdScam, Wilson-Raybould, SNC and many more 'biggies' being denied by politicians and federal departments at the time. I'll wait a bit to see what comes up from the cracks in the woodwork, but won't write off their reports out of hand.

Can you tell me how you would know it's bang on with accuracy? IIRC, it was Australian press that first broke the news about Lucas's death (and a bit about how he died). Does G & M have a competitor of note?

It's my impression that G & M adhere's pretty closely to what is officially released by the government. Are there examples of it doing investigative journalism? When Karla Homolka began her new life, I"m not sure G & M ever covered it (despite other news outlets finding her with three kids). I ask because if G & M is always accurate (but does not cover many stories), that's not necessarily a good thing.

Also, if G & M is offering the same stories, I think the wikipedia articles should reflect the initial journalism, which right now, is attributed (in the Homolka case) to other outlets.

 

[sprucetip]

It seems like some people are expecting this case - with the massive, unique, and treacherous territory it covered to be neatly wrapped up like a CSI episode. I don't believe the RCMP are perfect, and I'm sure they'll have learned something from this investigation but I'm still amazed that they found the bodies of the suspects so quickly.

After a few days, I was beginning to think that perhaps BS and KM left the Gillam area, but the way the RCMP hung in there, like a dog with a bone, proved that they obviously knew something more than they were letting on and that they were on the right trail after all.

Agreed! Although I've been critical of them for a couple of things, I think overall they did an amazing job. Finding them so quickly, in that terrain is pretty impressive.

 

[10ofRods]

I'm surprised. I would have thought that Australian media wouldn't be as sensationalist as some American media. This interview seems to be very Fox newsish or Nancy Grace like.

Australian media can be very tabloid, much like British media. And US media. And in Canada, the Toronto Sun picked up the story of how K. Homolka was living her life as if she'd never been a serial killer and ran with it.

 

[srper2]

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, at the time the locals found the RAV4 in Gilliam they did not know it was related to murders many miles away.

I can imagine the fire was put out and a wrecker was called to tow it away without a great concern for the coins, Orange peels, keys, pans, pork chops, etc. that might have spilled out as it was towed away. It might have been locals taking care of a burned wreck.

The article states the RCMP was called. It may well be that the RCMP gathered this debris when they arrived and connected this burned out vehicle in Gilliam with the suspects and murders.

Just because the RCMP has not reported that they picked up this debris, inspected the burned out vehicle, etc. in a news release does not mean they did not do so. Without knowing what they picked up and when and what importance they placed on it, it is hard to judge - but the fact locals saw debris nearby right after it was towed does not provide a complete picture given what might have been known at the time, IMO.

I have to wonder, would LE have known at that time what vehicle they were driving and known they were seen close to that area? If they did, wouldn't it be important to have secured the scene of the burning vehicle as it would be obvious to guess it might be related to the fact that they had previously burnt a vehicle and police were searching for them in a stolen vehicle in that area? if not known yet, then fair enough for the lapse of response. The pics of the keys were reported to have been taken days later by a reporter I read in a post here a while back? So days may have gone by with no search etc?

 

[Curiouspersonxyz]

What is important in a murder investigation is not to cherry-pick evidence at the scene.

What kind of forensic investigator leaves some evidence behind, making a judgment call to select only certain things of their choice? What authority do they have to do that? Heck, maybe they even brought an orange for a snack and tossed the peels in an evidence bag, after snacking on half-eaten pork chops.

They will need to look for DNA on the pork chop, I think.

And also they should look for other items that might have fallen on the side of the road as the vehicle was towed in order to be sure nothing else that could have fallen out is overlooked (I think the news article said the keys were on/by the road and the car was in a ditch).

 

[otto]

Posting again because the importance of the keys obviously isn’t sinking in for everyone. THE. KEYS. COULD. BE. CRITICAL.

You are missing the point. You might not get dna or fingerprints off the keys but you don’t need that. The fact the keys were in the car they were driving is evidence enough to link K&B to the keys. What you could later find out from the keys is that they belong to a 4th murder victim. K&B clearly had a MO of taking their victims personal identifiable belongings.

I have said all along that it’s highly unlikely but it doesn’t change the fact that those keys are evidence and to what degree they are important isn’t up to the officer bagging evidence. All evidence should be bagged and then later combed through to determine if it points towards anything.

It would be a mighty big embarrassment if next week Susan from Winnipeg calls the police because her husband hasn’t returned from his 4 week trip to his trapper cabin. Police attend the cabin and find her husband dead with no evidence of who killed him. Susan describes his keys as having a leatherman tool on them. If police had collected keys from the RAV4 burn site they can compare and instantly link K&B to his murder. If those keys are missing the murder remains unsolved or police waste resources looking for another killer.

Obviously this is all hypothetical but it boggles my mind that some of y’all don’t see the possible importance or future implication of keeping those keys as evidence.

So much can be imagined based on a key in the dirt near a burned vehicle, but better to rely on facts.

 

[srper2]

He intervened to request military assistance.

People forget that the RCMP is accountable to government.

But you should be the screenwriter for the movie.

Yes, it is bringing back memories of the Fargo series now

 

[ldlager]

As for the keys, I really doubt she was patiently waiting to eventually have the keys returned. The time to change door locks would be as soon as her husband was identified as the 3rd victim, knowing the murderer had access to all his keys.

If keys were left, isn’t it possible that other items that could possibly be relevant were left also?

 

[Satchie]

What is important in a murder investigation is not to cherry-pick evidence at the scene.

What kind of forensic investigator leaves some evidence behind, making a judgment call to select only certain things of their choice? What authority do they have to do that? Heck, maybe they even brought an orange for a snack and tossed the peels in an evidence bag, after snacking on half-eaten pork chops.

As I recall, the priority was making sure no one else, including LE, was killed by these two guys. They also wanted to capturing them alive. As I recall, large numbers of LE were patrolling the area, with weapons, dogs, airplanes and boats. There was all the logistics of getting hundreds of people up there, housing them, feeding them, getting all the equipment up there, interviewing people, setting up road blocks, collecting masses of information, creating search plans and systematcally mapping everything they did.

Meanwhile, the media were standing around, eating beef jerky and taking a few photos. But they found a pair of keys! And saved us all from those incompetent police idiots. Thank god we have journalists to save the day, our heroes.

 

[KR72]

Can you tell me how you would know it's bang on with accuracy? IIRC, it was Australian press that first broke the news about Lucas's death (and a bit about how he died). Does G & M have a competitor of note?

It's my impression that G & M adhere's pretty closely to what is officially released by the government. Are there examples of it doing investigative journalism? When Karla Homolka began her new life, I"m not sure G & M ever covered it (despite other news outlets finding her with three kids). I ask because if G & M is always accurate (but does not cover many stories), that's not necessarily a good thing.

Also, if G & M is offering the same stories, I think the wikipedia articles should reflect the initial journalism, which right now, is attributed (in the Homolka case) to other outlets.

The Globe and Mail is a respected paper, but not without its faults of course. A couple of their writers are questionable though. Their biggest competitor is probably the Toronto Star.

 

[otto]

Actually, RCMP has never identified the several items found on the shoreline that were directly linked to the suspects. The sleeping bag was reported by media, not RCMP.

RCMP Manitoba‏Verified account @rcmpmb
On Aug 2, several items directly linked to the suspects were found on shoreline, 9km along the Nelson River. RCMP Underwater Recovery Team did not find additional items. Roadblock on PR 290 has been removed, but officers remain in the Gillam area. #rcmpmb http://rcmp-grc.ca/57147

1:07 PM - 6 Aug 2019

The sleeping bag was 110km away at Port Nelson.

 

[aphoto]

So much can be imagined based on a key in the dirt near a burned vehicle, but better to rely on facts.

Without collecting all potential evidence facts can be missed. That is my point.

 

[sandbar]

That’s not the reporter I was there with

My apologies.

 

[srper2]

So much can be imagined based on a key in the dirt near a burned vehicle, but better to rely on facts.

That is like saying "so much can be imagined based on two murdered young people left lying in a ditch on a highway, but better to rely on facts". The keys are part of a collection of evidence, and in a case, evidence should not be picked and sorted through, that is why boxes of it are stored years after a case may be considered "solved". it is not up to anybody to pick and choose what evidence they keep and what they ignore, as this is being completely subjective and not being objective.

 

[Curiouspersonxyz]

I have to wonder, would LE have known at that time what vehicle they were driving and known they were seen close to that area? If they did, wouldn't it be important to have secured the scene of the burning vehicle as it would be obvious to guess it might be related to the fact that they had previously burnt a vehicle and police were searching for them in a stolen vehicle in that area? if not known yet, then fair enough for the lapse of response. The pics of the keys were reported to have been taken days later by a reporter I read in a post here a while back? So days may have gone by with no search etc?

I agree- it definitely would have been best if nothing was moved (e.g., the car was not towed and the site secured) and that LE examined the site of the burned vehicle with as much forensic care as they did the murder sites. Very much to be desired and hopefully done within the limitations of what was known at the time and in accord with LE best practices.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Can you tell me how you would know it's bang on with accuracy? IIRC, it was Australian press that first broke the news about Lucas's death (and a bit about how he died).

Yes, but in Australia Lucas is the son of a somebody. Here he's just another average guy. It was headline news that he died in Australia. Here the story didn't get attention until it grew to 3 murders and two missing teens.

Does G & M have a competitor of note?

It's my impression that G & M adhere's pretty closely to what is officially released by the government. Are there examples of it doing investigative journalism? When Karla Homolka began her new life, I"m not sure G & M ever covered it (despite other news outlets finding her with three kids). I ask because if G & M is always accurate (but does not cover many stories), that's not necessarily a good thing.

Also, if G & M is offering the same stories, I think the wikipedia articles should reflect the initial journalism, which right now, is attributed (in the Homolka case) to other outlets.

The Globe has the National Post as national competitors and Toronto Star and Toronto Sun as regional competitors.

There is of course the government outlet the CBC. Oddly enough, the CBC and government websites are cited more frequently than any other sources on the Homolka page, though there is a good showing from all of Canada's media and the Globe does figure in the list.