Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #13

[otto]

Does that seem to add up to 11000 sq mi?

It was 11,000 square kilometres, which is smaller than square miles. If they search an area 105 km wide and 105 km tall, they have searched 11,000 square km.

 

[mmsshh]

Problem with this is that vehicles on the side of a highway in a remote area, mean they are likely not working. Why would they even assume they could steal it? And why would they choose such an old vehicle to steal? They could have gone 20km further to Liard Hot Springs Lodge where there were probably some really nice vehicles to steal, with people out at the lodge or sleeping!

They weren't thinking clearly and they definitely tried to avoid crowded areas. You can also tell this based on the route they took to escape. A northern remote route which eventually got them trapped.

They saw a van by the side of the road and took their chances. It could be that the owners stopped there for a break and were away at the moment, and the van could be working for all they knew.

 

[Zella]

I think there's a legitimate debate to be had about the RCMP's timing of the announcements and whether they should have conclusively said more about it being a homicide, and I think both sides have made valid points. However, as an American who has never visited Canada, I don't feel it is my place to wade into that debate.

I will say, though, my overall impression of the RCMP from this case has been very positive. I'm impressed with the tenacity and professionalism they've demonstrated, as well as the respect they've accorded all the parties involved. I've learned so much about Canada while following this case--perhaps rather perversely, it's made me want to visit!--and I'm just astounded at the sheer size the investigation had to be, spanning thousands of miles and multiple provinces.

 

[aphoto]

Yes, of course. I was using it the same way (I've seen both at use in mortuaries, but only chemical coolants by ME's, at least, recently - last 15 years at least).

Maybe the box was built with chemical coolant padding in mind. Would love to know more.

If there was ice, my hunch is that there were no obvious signs of cause of death, like bullet holes. In the more remote areas (say, outback of the Sierra here in California or Death Valley), if there was an obvious cause of death (badly fractured skull, stab wounds, bullet holes) it's unlikely that any coolant would be used.

Looks like a Ziegler case to me. Just a hermetically sealed metal box. No chemicals, no ice. Y’all can google Ziegler Case, there is tons of manufacturers.

 

[10ofRods]

Here's my theory of what was their motive and what happened:

They didn't go to Whitehorse to find work. They were doing something illegal. I don't know what, maybe drugs or guns... something we may never know but definitely illegal. They had the evidence of their crime in their car, and were scared that the police might find the evidence and they get into trouble. They wanted to somehow get rid of their car, but they needed to steal another car first. They saw Lucas and Chynna's van parked by the highway. At first they didn't see the owner's around, and proceeded to steal the car. Suddenly Lucas and Chynna show up. Being the scared and inexperienced teens that they were, they shot the couple to death. Then they broke the windows of the van, opened its door and tried to start the engine... ****. The van doesn't work. Now they have murdered two people (without originally having the intention), a broken van, and their own car with whatever evidence in it, which they are trying so hard to destroy.

Now they are even more scared. They think there's no evidence to show that they were the murderers. They immediately jump into their car and try to get away as fast as they can. Later, they find another car by the highway, a RAV4, and an old gentleman chilling around. Having already murdered two people and nothing to lose, they kill the gentleman and steal his car. Again thinking that they have left no evidence and can get away with it if they drive really fast and get as far away as possible. They torch their own car, successfully destroy the evidence of what we will probably never know, and drive towards east.

They drive and drive and drive. Nonstop. They still have some hope that they may get away with all they have done. They're probably trying to make up a story to explain their torched car and the route they are taking. They have stole their victims IDs, just to buy themselves some time before the police can identify them and gather more information. At some point, when they are in northern Manitoba, they realize that they are stuck. The police and public know about them, know their faces and actively searching for them.

At this point, they're just too scared and don't really know what to do. They probably tried a few different scenarios: kill another innocent and get their car, hitchhike, etc. Finally, they decide to again torch the RAV4, destroy the evidance of something we may never know, and hide in the woods and wait until the police give up searching for them, or maybe meanwhile try to reach somewhere they can survive without being identified. Whatever their plan was, it went wrong and they ended up dying in the woods.

We may never know the details. But I believe they didn't just randomly decided to go and kill people. They ended up in a situation, got desperate and had to murder people, and after that they just had to go down and down. Kind of like Walter White in Breaking Bad. I don't think they killed people for mental issues or just for the sake of killing. They didn't harm the man who helped them get their car out of the mud although they had the perfect opportunity. I don't think they were evil serial killers. Just two kids (yes, kids) going after some dangerous adventure, and things went horribly wrong. Five lives wasted. What a shame...

Just a small aside. Even "evil serial killers" can appear to be nice. (cf: Joseph DeAngelo, who was a policeman and showed up at the usual "support the local youth" functions...was known in Exeter as a very by-the-book policeman)

In all my years of working with police, the one thing police never say is "this was random." In fact, they say the opposite all the time. "Nothing is random, there's *always* a story." From my perspective, they are right. Human behavior is never completely random. There's a story here, too, and I like yours (it doesn't differ too much from mine). If one of us were of the age group of K/B and involved in a similar subculture, we'd probably be able to add details to the story.

I don't find it implausible that K/B would think the van was still able to operate (especially if they thought the people were just camping there - we don't know if the lawn chairs were still outside, I assume so).

I agree that they probably stopped at the van to steal something.

But, it's also possible (as we've had it happen to us a few times) that they were tired and decided to stop in a wide pull-out where someone else already was. I've asked people who do this (park alongside someone else when the road is so long and there are so many other places) why do you do it? They either say they don't know or sheepishly admit they were nervous, hoping to be near someone else in case...bears...or whatever. It's really irritating to us, because we find it difficult to sleep when someone we don't know is suddenly nearby in the middle of the night.

That's partly because my work involves interviewing criminals and proto-criminals, so I know just how much crime is opportunistic.

Maybe K/B just stopped to sleep. Perhaps Lucas and Chynna got up to investigate. Maybe there was a conversation that rubbed K/B the wrong way. Lots and lots of maybes. But some kind of gun was present. Was it the only weapon used? We do not know. If K/B were simply looking for the first thing that would trigger enough anger to use those weapons, perhaps it didn't take much.

Bryer's online conversations were apparently filled with anger towards others, and breaking rules in order to lash out at people (essentially causing in-game death of carefully built characters).

 

[missy1974]

I do not think anyone should expect to be "spoon fed" all information that may or may not be relevant to them. Society has a responsibility to pay attention and if they don't care enough to pay attention, that is their choice.

As soon as the suspects knew that the first two victims were identified, they committed another murder. Dr Dyck had 4 days to decide whether to change his plans due to the July 15 suspicious deaths on Hwy 97.

The Fowler family is "eternally grateful" and the Deese family thanks 'All of Canada' for everything that RCMP did to solve the murders.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but unfortunately, not everyone is like you and I ... or most of us here. We tend to seek out the news, and although I do that the majority of the time, I cannot say I would be doing that when I am travelling.

A warning or alert on a roadside sign may have alerted travellers in the area that may not have otherwise known. I really don't think it could have hurt anything. We don't know why the RCMP chose not to do that, I certainly hope that their decisions were not made for tourism reasons above public safety as suggested by some. JMO

Do we have a statement from Leonard Dyck's family yet?

 

[SnooperDuper]

MAP/MATH HELP NEEDED:

The military captured 11,000 sq miles of imagery (~28000 sq kms) that's approx the size of Haiti
"Countries Compared by Geography > Land area > Sq. km. International Statistics at NationMaster.com", Food and Agriculture Organisation, electronic files and web site. Aggregates compiled by NationMaster. Retrieved from Countries Compared by Geography > Land area > Sq. km. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

@otto, can you maybe please draw an 11,000 sq mile box on your beautiful map? I recognize that 11000 square miles can be configured on myriad ways, but I can't fathom what that looks like...

It's 11,000 km^2, not mi^2. That's a circle with a radius of 60 km.

 

[aphoto]

did the planes belong to RCMP? if they were charter planes the airline may have required a containment box to ship the bodies.

The planes have RCMP painted on the sides. Safe to say they are owned by RCMP. Cases appear to be hermetically sealed Ziegler Cases

 

[missy1974]

Yes, of course. I was using it the same way (I've seen both at use in mortuaries, but only chemical coolants by ME's, at least, recently - last 15 years at least).

Maybe the box was built with chemical coolant padding in mind. Would love to know more.

If there was ice, my hunch is that there were no obvious signs of cause of death, like bullet holes. In the more remote areas (say, outback of the Sierra here in California or Death Valley), if there was an obvious cause of death (badly fractured skull, stab wounds, bullet holes) it's unlikely that any coolant would be used.

I just want to say that it's super cool that we have a verified anthropologist here!!!

 

[SnooperDuper]

I really hope the RCMP decide to share much of the story in the coming days and weeks, as best and openly they can, with perhaps the exception of anything that may be of privacy concern to the victim's families.

Right now, there is something that's bothering me about this case, and my spidy senses are definitely tingling. I have some alternate theories which I obviously can't post here without being banned. However, they are not complete theories, but rather pieces that may compose a theory that I still need to coalesce in my head.

I have a big problem with the trend in policing in the country with respect to secrecy. On all levels (municipal, provincial, and national), police are becoming more and more unwilling to share information...it's not just individuals in the ranks that are doing so, but it's becoming dangerously systemic, IMO. If you want the best example, look no further than the Toronto Danforth shooting...there are more red flags and elephants in the room in that case than you can imagine, and the police have gone radio silent with the exception of a whitewashed statement a year later. There are dozens and dozens of other examples.

To compound the issue, the media are becoming complicit cowards. There is barely a true investigative journalist left in the country that is affiliated with any major media outlet. True investigative journalism has gone underground or independent. With a compliant and complicit media, there is nobody to hold the police or politicians to account. I blame part of the issue to the corporatization and consolidation of the major media organizations, in that they now have the means to control their reporters completely...nowhere to go when you get fired as a reporter now. It's all one big media conglomerate at the top.

It's for these reasons I'm not holding out a lot of hope we are going to get any satisfactory information out of this case. It's the typical MO of LE these days to offer nothing but a few dog bones to make the pacified public and complicit media go away and back to sleep.

Prove me wrong, RCMP.

Both the RCMP and the media withhold information from the public so the accused can get a fair trial. I am sure that once the RCMP investigation is done (it is still ongoing) they will present their understanding of what happened to the public, and the press will publish it.

 

[1987]

The planes have RCMP painted on the sides. Safe to say they are owned by RCMP. Cases appear to be hermetically sealed Ziegler Cases

thanks

 

[LadyL]

My guess is they found or stole the boat and hit a rock dead on in rapids, the boat damage indicates straight on impact at high speed. The boat could have immediately flipped and become pinned, possibly for days before releasing and bodies could have been trapped underneath. This might explain the lack of noticing the boat or debris until a few days ago. In river rapid accidents a pinned boat/body is pretty common.

so how did their bodies get 1 km. inland?

 

[olivebpa1]

did the planes belong to RCMP? if they were charter planes the airline may have required a containment box to ship the bodies.

A box does seem like a more secure option when flying with remains. I think you are on to something.

 

[jmcgladr]

They weren't thinking clearly and they definitely tried to avoid crowded areas. You can also tell this based on the route they took to escape. A northern remote route which eventually got them trapped.

They saw a van by the side of the road and took their chances. It could be that the owners stopped there for a break and were away at the moment, and the van could be working for all they knew.

But they already had a vehicle with a camper that was apparently working (at least at that time) Why would they need/want an older model van?

 

[aphoto]

They would have been the ones to inform CD's family that she has been found deceased.

CDs family said that officer from the Charlotte Police Department was the one to notify them. That may have been coordinated by the FBI but it wasn’t the FBI that came to their door.

Source: No. A colleague of mine spoke to CDs family, I was outside at the time he spoke to them but listened to their entire recorded conversation.

 

[Kubirai]

Typically, murders are isolated events and victims are targeted for specific reasons. One event that includes two homicides usually doesn't indicate a pattern or a threat to the general public.

I provided LE detailed info about the "murders" of Australian tourists Owen Rooney and Alison Raspa in the weeks preceding Lucas Fowler and Chynna Dease murders.

Even if their IDs were missing, the unusual circumstances should have raised suspicion of malice.

Imagine a worst case scenario ... Prof. Dyck was asked to meet someone at the lookout, just as KM/BL was heading down Highway 37.

 

[Bluehorse]

Well they did. I have spoken to two people who saw the keys with their own eyes several days after the car and other evidence was removed from the scene. The globe and mail took the image themselves. The keys may not be crucial to the case but they were clearly with KM and BS at some point so should be considered evidence. For all we know they may link to another murder

If that is the case I hope the person who took the picture told the RCMP

 

[otto]

You are assuming that everyone listens to the news or would have known this though. In my experience, when travelling, I feel so out of the loop when it comes to news, and I definitely don't listen to local news when I'm travelling, and I'm not even sure what is up there that would be considered "local news"? I would agree that the locals may have known though, if not the news, just from local gossip.

Shoot, just in the last few days I have heard from people that they didn't even know about these 2, which is just crazy to me... but not everyone seeks out the news like we do.

This is true. People are less inclined to listen to news when there are so many more entertaining options. It's a personal choice.

 

[aphoto]

If that is the case I hope the person who took the picture told the RCMP

At least one of the two people I know to have seen them alerted the RCMP but I believe the keys are still there.

 

[Jealoushe]

https://www.ogr.org/assets/docs/ebloa ziegler case biovu bag.pdf