Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #15

[Trooper]

RSBM

Right. Something that is often overlooked in these cases is the opportunistic nature of the offending.

As you say, its a common trope - they get away on the road, anonymous, with no controls or responsibilities. None of their usual support structures.

Several young lads I came up with would load up on booze, jump in their cars and cruise for parties and fights every weekend. The same nihilistic behaviour common with so many young men. Beatings, brawls and sexual assaults was what these charming guys were into.

Now because no one died, no one is puzzling over their relationships with their mothers, what video games they played, or lack of a strong authority figure.

But one incident in particular which became an urban legend, the victim easily could have died having been thrown through a window. Within a few years they grew out of this stuff. Another fact that any District Court judge is well aware of in sentencing these cases

Now our charming gentleman had no particular official pact to go out and try to do some murders. Rather they were abusive individuals who discovered a taste for it during their exploits and their relative freedom at the weekends. Especially they discovered they were powerful young men and no one could easily stop them.

So yeah - there are 100s of stories of young men on the prowl who end up doing a murder one night.

It's one of the older tragedies and I don't see a special meaning in it.

Of course I am not shocked to discover trouble in their family lives because ordinarily, kids from loving, functional families, don't go on the prowl with weapons, looking to hurt people. Yet the boys I knew were from OK middle class families with no abusive stuff and there was just not much you could really put your finger on as to why they were so excited to beat the daylights out of other boys they could catch up with. The group dynamic was maybe the main part of it.

Anthony Burgess's A Clock Work Orange from all the way back in 1962 pondered these very questions. I don't see anymore of an answer in 2019 than I saw in 1986

And some people are born to kill. Quite often, they themselves only realise this when they, in actual fact, and often as a great surprise to themselves , kill someone. Could be a child, could be a woman, could be a man.. They can go all their life, probably a short life, unknowing their own propensities, in a conscious way, although , it isn't improbable that deep down, they know. They do know they could kill, they just don't know it for a fact, more a knowing of the potential within themselves.

It is what it is. All the background in the world doesn't alter any of the outcomes. Good home, bad home, loving wise mother, ditzy nutso mother, clever father , absent dingbat father, tall, short, ugly, good looking, rich, poor, clever , dumb, it all evens out in the end. None of these factors change the inherent desire , born within, to want to kill.

The same story could be told of Sebastian Burns, money, education, status, college, clever, good looking ( in a creepy way ) , the exact opposite of the violin-inducing bathos of the Story of Bryer..

Ditto, the story of Sebastians partner, Atif. Money, status, education, health, ..

Same outcome, even worse, they were family anhilators, one by reality,, the other by proxy. They murdered people they knew, who loved them and cooked and cleaned and worked and educated them, and wiped their bottoms as babies.. .

but....
Same outcome. Put into motion the propensity, the potential they had within them to kill. Knowingly, unknowingly, same outcome.

 

[mtnstream]

This is an excerpt from (source) The George Straight which is a longtime publication from Vancouver, BC.
RCMP spokesperson unaware of any investigation into Australian interview with triple-murder suspect's dad
by Charlie Smith on August 14th, 2019 at 9:07 AM
The writer is referring to the Australian 60 Minutes interview and legality of payment:
"Yesterday, I contacted the B.C. RCMP to ask if it has launched an investigation of Alan Schmegelsky and/or 60 Minutes Australia to determine if either party may have violated the Profits of Criminal Notoriety Act.

Cpl. Chris Manseau replied that he was not aware of any investigation or complaint. He pointed that there hasn't even been confirmation that Schmegelsky was paid by 60 Minutes Australia.

My impression (and I could be wrong) is that this is the end of this matter. Consider it as yet another case of a journalist tilting at a windmill, as the saying goes."

A.S. was in a nice motel/hotel room though!

 

[NJSleuth91]

Several young lads I came up with would load up on booze, jump in their cars and cruise for parties and fights every weekend. The same nihilistic behaviour common with so many young men. Beatings, brawls and sexual assaults was what these charming guys were into.

That sounds like a very different thing compared to this case. These two didn't have any known violent or criminal behavior before this. Bryer did make threats in middle school, but there was never any known action, never any known history of them getting into fights or anything.

Now these nice middle class boys did not plan to murder anyone that evening.

Yet, their group dynamic, alcohol, and opportunity opened the door to something so evil that i cannot believe any of them, if alone, would have contemplated it.

This type of group dynamic thing is not even that uncommon. Especially if you factor in alcohol and other drugs, which I suspect were involved in this case too.

All the background in the world doesn't alter any of the outcomes. Good home, bad home, loving wise mother, ditzy nutso mother, clever father , absent dingbat father, tall, short, ugly, good looking, rich, poor, clever , dumb, it all evens out in the end. None of these factors change the inherent desire , born within, to want to kill.

Citation needed. I've never heard anyone make that argument before and the evidence does not in any way support it (in fact if you follow that argument to its logical conclusion it has some...questionable implications to say the least).

Op-Ed: We have studied every mass shooting since 1966. Here's what we've learned about the shooters

First, the vast majority of mass shooters in our study experienced early childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age. The nature of their exposure included parental suicide, physical or sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, and/or severe bullying. The trauma was often a precursor to mental health concerns, including depression, anxiety, thought disorders or suicidality.

Second, practically every mass shooter we studied had reached an identifiable crisis point in the weeks or months leading up to the shooting. They often had become angry and despondent because of a specific grievance. For workplace shooters, a change in job status was frequently the trigger. For shooters in other contexts, relationship rejection or loss often played a role. Such crises were, in many cases, communicated to others through a marked change in behavior, an expression of suicidal thoughts or plans, or specific threats of violence.
[...]
We also need to, as a society, be more proactive. Most mass public shooters are suicidal, and their crises are often well known to others before the shooting occurs. The vast majority of mass shooters leak their plans ahead of time. People who see or sense something is wrong, however, may not always say something to someone owing to the absence of clear reporting protocols or fear of overreaction and unduly labeling a person as a potential threat. Proactive violence prevention starts with schools, colleges, churches and employers initiating conversations about mental health and establishing systems for identifying individuals in crisis, reporting concerns and reaching out — not with punitive measures but with resources and long-term intervention. Everyone should be trained to recognize the signs of a crisis.

Proactivity needs to extend also to the traumas in early life that are common to so many mass shooters. Those early exposures to violence need addressing when they happen with ready access to social services and high-quality, affordable mental health treatment in the community. School counselors and social workers, employee wellness programs, projects that teach resilience and social emotional learning, and policies and practices that decrease the stigma around mental illness will not just help prevent mass shootings, but will also help promote the social and emotional success of all Americans.

I think these two better fit the psychological profile and likely motive for mass shooters even though their crimes didn't match the definition of a mass shooting. But if you'd prefer a source on serial killers:

https://www.psychiatryadvisor.com/h...ating-nature-vs-nurture-in-methods-of-murder/

According to criminologist Dr Adrian Raine, both biologic and social factors contribute to the making of a murderer. Reviews of more than 100 twin and adoption analyses showed that approximately 50% of variance in antisocial behavior is attributable to genetic influences.1 In his book, The Anatomy of Violence, Dr Raine explains that “Genetics and environment work together to encourage violent behavior.” For example, those with a specific variant of the enzyme monoamine-oxidase-A gene are more prone to displaying violent behavior if they have had an abusive upbringing. A child susceptible to genetically driven violent conduct does not necessarily become a criminal. However, genetics, in tandem with environmental factors such as violent childhood experiences, work together to shape a person.

One of the authors of this study, Michael G. Aamodt, explained, “Our data showed that a much higher percentage of serial killers were abused as children than the population in general. It certainly makes sense that the type of abuse received as a child — physical, sexual, or psychological — could influence a serial killer’s behavior and choice of victim.”

 

[Deleted member 83851]

And some people are born to kill. Quite often, they themselves only realise this when they, in actual fact, and often as a great surprise to themselves , kill someone. Could be a child, could be a woman, could be a man.. They can go all their life, probably a short life, unknowing their own propensities, in a conscious way, although , it isn't improbable that deep down, they know. They do know they could kill, they just don't know it for a fact, more a knowing of the potential within themselves.

It is what it is. All the background in the world doesn't alter any of the outcomes. Good home, bad home, loving wise mother, ditzy nutso mother, clever father , absent dingbat father, tall, short, ugly, good looking, rich, poor, clever , dumb, it all evens out in the end. None of these factors change the inherent desire , born within, to want to kill.

The same story could be told of Sebastian Burns, money, education, status, college, clever, good looking ( in a creepy way ) , the exact opposite of the violin-inducing bathos of the Story of Bryer..

Ditto, the story of Sebastians partner, Atif. Money, status, education, health, ..

Same outcome, even worse, they were family anhilators, one by reality,, the other by proxy. They murdered people they knew, who loved them and cooked and cleaned and worked and educated them, and wiped their bottoms as babies.. .

but....
Same outcome. Put into motion the propensity, the potential they had within them to kill. Knowingly, unknowingly, same outcome.

I guess I keep going back to the idea of the Bad Seed---unknowable dark desire and largely unpredictable.

There was a person in my family who was revealed to be a certified psychopath and even as he was being charged for his crimes there were people who refused to believe that he could be that person. Not him, he had a cheeky smile, tousled red-gold hair and beard, and a twinkle in his blue eyes. And he was very smart, high-paying job, good sense of humour...but. But. Closer examination revealed that his co-workers hated him for his work behaviour, his children knew his cruelty, there were any number of people who had a snippet of valuable insight as to the truth of who he was when he thought no one was looking.

The whole experience was incredibly enlightening in terms of our perception into the condition of someone else's condition.

Also, as a family trying to grapple with a new reality, it can be quite painful because every memory is altered, everything you thought was true is now not true or at least has to be questioned. It helped to talk about our individual experiences with the 'new stranger' and to come to some agreement eventually. For instance, we eventually decided that this family member was no longer alive to us and so did not need to be referenced in the present tense, if that makes any sense.

 

[srper2]

Hmm, this is interesting, 2 suspects wanted for multiple warrants, both with beards, wonder what one of them would look like wearing a cap, standing in the middle of the road near the van of CD and LF at night? RCMP have said that their investigation is continuing into the deaths of CD and LF. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/two-men-wanted-nation-wide-warrant-surrey-rcmp- 1.5247255 They could have been driving anything at the time CD and LF were murdered and sounds like they are violent and use guns.

 

[PatLaurel]

Hmm, this is interesting, 2 suspects wanted for multiple warrants, both with beards, wonder what one of them would look like wearing a cap, standing in the middle of the road near the van of CD and LF at night? RCMP have said that their investigation is continuing into the deaths of CD and LF. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/two-men-wanted-nation-wide-warrant-surrey-rcmp- 1.5247255 They could have been driving anything at the time CD and LF were murdered and sounds like they are violent and use guns.

SSB could be easily mistaken for KM and AAS for BS... And also the resemblance between AAS and the composite sketch is striking!

JMO

 

[Errrr]

I don't know. When they were towed out of the ditch, they quipped that their parents told them to take a joy ride. I would expect that very close friends probably joked about things that were awkward, like a father's drunken soul ranting on paper for 12 days.

Kam sure put cars in ditches a lot. Was he just a bad driver or was he trying to get caught?

 

[LoisLane]

When the police filed paperwork of second degree murder against Kam and Bryer they referred to Leonard Dyck as John Doe. I think it’s pretty safe to say they weren’t aware of his identity.

I thought that was to respect the publication ban. I have to look at it closer I guess.

 

[ktm44]

A description of the missing RAV4 is far better information than a sketch of an unknown deceased individual, in appealing to the public. The RCMP wouldn’t holdback critical information such as that if LD had been identified sooner.

I'm not as sure about that. I've wondered for a while if the RCMP delayed releasing an identification because Breyer and Kam were using his credit cards and the RCMP didn't want to disclose for fear they would kill someone else to fund their journey.

 

[SnooperDuper]

If he shot up to 6'4" at the age of 14 or 15 and had been neglected leading up to that hormonal shock, it is not surprising that he threatened to treat his mother as she had treated him, or been angry with her.

I think that should read, "threatened to treat his mother as AS had treated her". Kids do learn to play their parents war games, and it seems that BS could have learned plenty of negative tactics from AS.

DS works for a homeless shelter and I find it hard to believe that she would not be a compassionate person with a lot of experience dealing with people with mental health and and addiction problems like AS.

At 14-15 kids are pushing the limits and DS was probably trying to lay down the law and getting a lot of push back from BS.

Kids by 14-15 have also expertly learned how to play parents off of one another to their advantage.

BS runs away to stay with AS because he figures the house rules will be more amenable to him. There may be no rules with AS but also no house!

BS ends up with DS's mother, where there is a different relationship with no baggage, as there is with BS's parents, and settles in decently.

 

[SnooperDuper]

SSB could be easily mistaken for KM and AAS for BS... And also the resemblance between AAS and the composite sketch is striking!

JMO

Nope, even with my glasses off, two brown skinned, black haired stocky South Asians do not look like two young skinny white kids.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

As of this writing, the most-read story on this website concerns an interview given by an occasionally homeless man to an Australian TV program

Alan Schmegelsky is, of course, the father of Bryer, the Port Alberni teen who died by suicide in rural Manitoba.

This came after Bryer and his childhood friend, Kam McLeod, went on an apparent murder spree in northern B.C.

My article pointed out that 60 Minutes Australia, which broadcast the interview with Schmegelsky, has paid subjects of past stories for interviews.

It's legal in Australia.

But in B.C., there's a law called the Profits of Criminal Notoriety Act.
RCMP spokesperson unaware of any investigation into Australian interview with triple-murder suspect's dad

 

[FactFinder3000]

As of this writing, the most-read story on this website concerns an interview given by an occasionally homeless man to an Australian TV program

Alan Schmegelsky is, of course, the father of Bryer, the Port Alberni teen who died by suicide in rural Manitoba.

This came after Bryer and his childhood friend, Kam McLeod, went on an apparent murder spree in northern B.C.

My article pointed out that 60 Minutes Australia, which broadcast the interview with Schmegelsky, has paid subjects of past stories for interviews.

It's legal in Australia.

But in B.C., there's a law called the Profits of Criminal Notoriety Act.
RCMP spokesperson unaware of any investigation into Australian interview with triple-murder suspect's dad

This was discussed at some length a few pages ago. The author of this piece is unfortunately misinformed. The Profits of Criminal Notoriety Act only forbids the actual criminal from selling the story of their crimes. Alan is not the perpetrator of these crimes nor did he tell the story of the crimes. It's perfectly legal for him to sell an interview.

 

[PatLaurel]

Nope, even with my glasses off, two brown skinned, black haired stocky South Asians do not look like two young skinny white kids.

At dusk and from a distance, i do think the "south asian men" could be mistaken for K and B.
Maybe i need glasses, because i don't see two "brown skinned" men, not even two "indian-yellowish" skinned men... Actually, their skin tone is lighter than mine, and i'm caucasian.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

As a sessional, he would be paid more by the hour, but he would not have benefits and UBC pension - unless it's been unionized. Does anyone know? I'm just wondering about his family.

I believe there's a GoFundMe up for the family. Here in California, the sessionals get a contribution to a pension, but it's really really small (and no benefits). I don't know about UBC, but I suspect it's similar. It's a way universities manage to stay afloat. It's also really unfair.

Thank you, btw, for bringing us more news about Prof Dyck.

 

[10ofRods]

The only known genes that give an inborn tendency to violence/antisocial behaviors are those affecting the right prefrontal cortex and 1-2 affecting the limbic system, particularly the amygdala.

However, having those genes does not mean that the person will grow up to be a killer. At all. In fact, one of the men who discovered the relationship between the genes for the right prefrontal cortex and antisocial behavior is a doctor. He himself has the gene. You can look him up on youtube. He used fMRI studies and genetic studies to establish the connection (he wasn't the first, but he certainly rethought his own inner life and his relationship to his own right prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain that lights up when people ponder moral dilemmas). There is variation in its size and function. The original studies were done on people on death row.

 

[LoisLane]

I was wondering if there are any arguments against the following assumption: the three victims were robbed. I can't think of any plausible alternatives, but if anyone has any, I'd love to hear them.

My reasoning is that, if they were not robbed, the police would have found their IDs almost immediately, instead of the days it took. So, their IDs were missing (except for C's hidden passport).

I'm not saying that robbery was the motive, just that it seems to have been done.

And speaking of robberies - murder on Vancouver Island, taking the vehicle, then ditching it, seems like a fairly rare occurance, from what I can see. So, I find it interesting that a case of it apparently occured just a couple of days before K&S's apparently sudden departure from Port Alberni. The victim's name was Martin Payne.
RCMP in British Columbia - Persons of interest identified in the murder of Martin Payne

I know that the two escapees from the prison in that area seem like a better fit, based on timing, plus where the victim's truck was found relative to where they were captured. However, the police seem quite interested in tracing that backpack, and also seem quite sure that, although they say they have two persons of interest in the case, there is no danger to the public. That fits the two recaptured prisoners, but also K&S.
Would two just-escaped convicts have a backpack from a deluxe tour operator?
Escaped Vancouver Island prisoners recaptured in Esquimalt: RCMP

It states the backpack was recovered July 9 and the murder was July 12. That’s interesting. Looks like it may belong to a woman judging by the book title and the spritz bottle. JMO.

 

[LoisLane]

Yes that's kind of what I was getting at with my theory. Like, they didn't have a clear plan, they weren't thinking clearly at all, they were in kind of this fog of rage and depression and their only plan initially was to get as far away as possible from Port Alberni and from their families. Maybe with some vague ideas of suicide or violence, which is why they brought the guns. I don't think that's even an unusual thing for teenagers to do, minus the murder part.

The no plan is why I feel like they didn’t have permission to take the camper truck or they told KM’s parents a different story of where they were going.

 

[Zella]

One of the things perplexing me, that I've not seen mentioned, is the Cold Lake Stuck-in-the-mud happened on the same day as the surveillance video from the store in Meadow Lake.

Ever been stuck in the mud? You tend to get muddy. Very muddy. Yet, I can see no sign of mud on the two suspects in the video. Not one bit. This is one of the many things that has struck me as odd.

Is it acceptable to link a youtube video if it's from a law enforcement agency's (RCMP) channel? I can't find a source for the vid that isn't youtube (the news stories I can find are just embedding this).

I think they were stopping places and maintaining relatively decent hygiene during the joyride part of their trip, especially for teenage boys. I've mentioned this before, but they're wearing clean-looking clothes in the video. They've not been driving in those clothes for days without a change.

Their hair also doesn't look oily, Bryer looks pretty clean shaven, and even Kam's beard, though longer than in "normal" pics I've seen of him, isn't that wild looking on his jawline. Nobody reported them appearing disheveled or dirty-looking.

So, I don't find it that odd they weren't covered in mud. I'd say they stopped somewhere and cleaned up. It also wouldn't surprise me if they changed clothes that day for that reason. I also have suspected Bryer had multiple pairs of camo clothes--seems like a look he was fond of.

Also weren't they in the store later that afternoon while the mud odyssey was in the morning? I think they had time to clean up.

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

Bryer has a sibling?

It was AS who stated he had no contact with his son between the ages of 8 and 16. He didn’t say “unsupervised” or not, nor what was the reason.

My guess is that he couldn't get his act together or simply refused to do supervised visits.

Out on a limb here, but one thing that strikes me in the one photo of Mr. and Mrs. S, is how much younger she is than her husband. <modsnip: sleuthing non POI/suspect is not allowed>