Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #15

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  • #821
Do people actually think these two teenage boys - who were on the run from (allegedly) murdering three people - were concerned about showering? Any teenage boys I've known, in their daily lives were not concerned about showering!

It was a good point about them being muddy while trying to dig out the RAV4. It is hard NOT to get muddy when you're doing that. I assumed they've been wearing the same clothes since the start, especially Bryer and his camo clothes. But perhaps they did change at some point. But showering and finding a place to shower, paying for it, etc, seems way too unimportant for them to be focused on.
 
  • #822
  • #823
Do people actually think these two teenage boys - who were on the run from (allegedly) murdering three people - were concerned about showering? Any teenage boys I've known, in their daily lives were not concerned about showering!

It was a good point about them being muddy while trying to dig out the RAV4. It is hard NOT to get muddy when you're doing that. I assumed they've been wearing the same clothes since the start, especially Bryer and his camo clothes. But perhaps they did change at some point. But showering and finding a place to shower, paying for it, etc, seems way too unimportant for them to be focused on.
My only point with that is they look fairly well-groomed to have been on the road and roughing it. I don't think you're going to go a few days without a shower and have your hair, clothes, skin, and facial hair look that clean. I see teens who are not on the run from the law and camping out who look way more grody than they did in that surveillance footage, which is why I commented on it. LOL

Also the witnesses who saw them never commented on them being grody-looking--or smelling.
 
  • #824
But I wonder, would he answer a call if contacted by police?

Notifications are normally done in person and not via phone; child support is paid until a child reaches 19 in BC so NoK had contact info for AS (who was also spending time with his child lately). If the NoK requested he (AS) be notified, the release to the public would not have occurred until that notification had happened either in person or via phone in exceptional circumstances. That's the way it works. Personal experience at assisting officer and notifying NoKs.
 
  • #825
But AS's allegations would have been heard in court over 10 years if DS alleged that they were harassment, and for AS to be found guilty (as he was), his accusations would have to have been groundless.

I don't understand how the system could be so broken that both the children services and the court of law would have ruled against him. That's a lot of eyes on BS's care.

That the "system is broken" is AS's point of view because he didn't get what he wanted. I don't think AS is the most credible character.

It is hard to believe but things and scenario as you’ve described have happened. All to often IMO.
 
  • #826
My only point with that is they look fairly well-groomed to have been on the road and roughing it. I don't think you're going to go a few days without a shower and have your hair, clothes, skin, and facial hair look that clean. I see teens who are not on the run from the law and camping out who look way more grody than they did in that surveillance footage, which is why I commented on it. LOL

Also the witnesses who saw them never commented on them being grody-looking--or smelling.
LOL @ "grody", haven't heard that gem in a while.

I can easily go a week and not look grody or smelly but I'm assuming it's a bit different for a hormone-raging teenager. I agree, they did look pretty clean, just wondering if they had lots of changes of clothes, that would indicate they were planning on being gone a while. Or did they only bring the clothes on their back? That'd indicate a short trip was planned.
 
  • #827
But if there were any truth to the allegations, wouldn't BS have been taken away from DS and put in AS's custody? I mean, children's services would have definitely become involved if someone alleged drug use in the home. Instead AS was banned from seeing BS without supervision for 8 years. Isn't that telling?

I was going to try to not post my thoughts, but I read this post... and this snipped by me from another one of your posts....

I really doubt DS could have had a raging meth problem and still won full custody and a restraining order against AS that kept him away for 8 years.

The system isn't perfect, whether it's social services or the Family Court system in Canada... I can tell you that yes, some kids fall through the cracks, some people know how to work the system, and the one's that work within the system are probably the most educated on how to work it... and yes, some kids are left in the custody of a parent that is a drug addict and abusive. I can tell you this from experience. I am not saying that is what happened here, but to think that the system always gets it right, it's just not true. Some people just know how to play the system much better than others. After reading some of the stories from @NJSleuth91 ... I am sure he/she might agree? :)
 
  • #828
LOL @ "grody", haven't heard that gem in a while.

I can easily go a week and not look grody or smelly but I'm assuming it's a bit different for a hormone-raging teenager. I agree, they did look pretty clean, just wondering if they had lots of changes of clothes, that would indicate they were planning on being gone a while. Or did they only bring the clothes on their back? That'd indicate a short trip was planned.
I've always assumed due to the "looking for work" story, they took quite a bit of clothes with them.

As someone who may be in the running for having the world's naturally oiliest hair and skin, if they weren't washing their hair and skin and looked that clear-complected and had that fresh of hair after a few days on the road, I want to know their travel beauty secrets. :D
 
  • #829
BBM
I think a lot depends on who has the better lawyer :)

And this!!!! or who has legal aide compared to who has to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer because they don't qualify for legal aide! Family Courts proceedings are brutally expensive.
 
  • #830
Do people actually think these two teenage boys - who were on the run from (allegedly) murdering three people - were concerned about showering? Any teenage boys I've known, in their daily lives were not concerned about showering!

It was a good point about them being muddy while trying to dig out the RAV4. It is hard NOT to get muddy when you're doing that. I assumed they've been wearing the same clothes since the start, especially Bryer and his camo clothes. But perhaps they did change at some point. But showering and finding a place to shower, paying for it, etc, seems way too unimportant for them to be focused on.


I don't think anyone is saying it was their priority, just that they appeared clean in the surveillance, and weren't reported by anyone who saw them (Cold Lake guy, the checkstop officers, the gas clerk at Split Lake) as looking disheveled or dirty.
 
  • #831
Maybe. Maybe not. The system is really broken. My mom easily got full custody of us and she had literally tried to murder us in the past. Things are overlooked all the time. If both parents are off the rails but one is way more obvious about it than the other, social services is probably only going to focus on the obviously off the rails parent.

RSBM - I thought you may have something to say about this, I guess I should have kept reading.

I think it's obvious that no matter what happened in this case, it had an effect on Bryer, it had to have, right?
 
  • #832
I don't think anyone is saying it was their priority, just that they appeared clean in the surveillance, and weren't reported by anyone who saw them (Cold Lake guy, the checkstop officers, the gas clerk at Split Lake) as looking disheveled or dirty.
Point taken! It just seems like such an insignificant thing but as we've found out, we have no idea what they were thinking along the way. Or why they did certain things.They were pretty unpredictable. Trying to predict what "normal" murderers-on-the-run would do doesn't seem to apply to these two at all.
 
  • #833
I was going to try to not post my thoughts, but I read this post... and this snipped by me from another one of your posts....

The system isn't perfect, whether it's social services or the Family Court system in Canada... I can tell you that yes, some kids fall through the cracks, some people know how to work the system, and the one's that work within the system are probably the most educated on how to work it... and yes, some kids are left in the custody of a parent that is a drug addict and abusive. I can tell you this from experience. I am not saying that is what happened here, but to think that the system always gets it right, it's just not true. Some people just know how to play the system much better than others. After reading some of the stories from @NJSleuth91 ... I am sure he/she might agree? :)

I think the only thing I have been able to figure out from this debate is that all the finger pointing, all the horrible accusations, all the painting the other parent as the bad guy must have created a heck of an environment for BS. It's a tough spot as a kid to grow up as juror to your parent's failed relationship. It doesn't matter who was really the bad guy(s), it was a bad situation. As mentioned before, he was a pawn in a very acrimonious relationship between AS and DS and family life must have been hell for him.

@KR72 made the insightful comment that AS at least was sending mixed messages, complaining that BS was raised by YouTube and video games, yet buying him a gaming computer. DS's coworker said she too spoiled him, but was having difficulty handling him at the same time. There was probably such a great battle to win BS's support and opinion that the two parents could no longer see clearly enough to guide BS. They were more absorbed with the fight than the kid himself, though they were probably both convinced they were doing it all because they loved him.

I can see BS loving and hating each of his parents by turn, and I can see him being dependent on them and unable to peel away because he was so new to the work world, with only a summer of construction and 5 weeks at Walmart under his belt. With so much drama all around him through his life he probably started imagining a truly dramatic escape from it all.

It's just confusing to me then how KM got drawn into all of this.
 
  • #834
I think they were stopping places and maintaining relatively decent hygiene during the joyride part of their trip, especially for teenage boys. I've mentioned this before, but they're wearing clean-looking clothes in the video. They've not been driving in those clothes for days without a change.

Their hair also doesn't look oily, Bryer looks pretty clean shaven, and even Kam's beard, though longer than in "normal" pics I've seen of him, isn't that wild looking on his jawline. Nobody reported them appearing disheveled or dirty-looking.

So, I don't find it that odd they weren't covered in mud. I'd say they stopped somewhere and cleaned up. It also wouldn't surprise me if they changed clothes that day for that reason. I also have suspected Bryer had multiple pairs of camo clothes--seems like a look he was fond of.

Also weren't they in the store later that afternoon while the mud odyssey was in the morning? I think they had time to clean up.

MOO

Some of the others here mentioned public showers at campgrounds and beaches, or even truck stop showers. I find all of those quite viable as possibilities. And yup, they do look clean in the video, which is just hours after their reported morning entanglement with the mud.

Cleaning the mud off the outside of the RAV would be easy enough - a drive through car wash. Getting mud off themselves and their clothes, not so easy. A public shower - but mid-day, at a campground? But, they cleaned up, somehow.

As for B's clean-shaven look, I've seen a pic of him unshaven (the one where he's got red and black headphones around his neck, and looking mean/scary) so he's definitely shaving sometimes, my guess is within 48 hours of that video.

I'll be honest, one of the reasons this cleanliness was nagging at me is I can think of one other explanation for their fresh appearance. They showered in a private home they'd accessed. I just hope that's not true, and there aren't more bodies to find.
 
  • #835
Point taken! It just seems like such an insignificant thing but as we've found out, we have no idea what they were thinking along the way. Or why they did certain things.They were pretty unpredictable. Trying to predict what "normal" murderers-on-the-run would do doesn't seem to apply to these two at all.

Completely agreed. I try to imagine what their conversations were, and why the killings suddenly stopped in BC if that's what they set out to do - kill people and then themselves. I keep wondering how they got the SUV badly stuck in mud in a field, on someones property, by Cold Lake in the middle of daylight.. and clearly in plain sight. The guy that helped them wasn't even the first one to see them out there, his brothers wife noticed them and the SUV could be seen from their yard. What the heck were they doing out there in an open field? The property owner could've called the police, they were out there for a while. It had been mentioned that maybe they were going to burn the vehicle out there, but apparently they sat out there, stuck, for almost two hours. And after getting pulled out, they went on to travel another two provinces instead of ditching/burning the vehicle somewhere else nearby if that's what they intended to do. So why were they out there, especially if they were on the run or trying to lay low? None of it makes any sense.
 
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  • #836
I think the only thing I have been able to figure out from this debate is that all the finger pointing, all the horrible accusations, all the painting the other parent as the bad guy must have created a heck of an environment for BS. It's a tough spot as a kid to grow up as juror to your parent's failed relationship. It doesn't matter who was really the bad guy(s), it was a bad situation. As mentioned before, he was a pawn in a very acrimonious relationship between AS and DS and family life must have been hell for him.

@KR72 made the insightful comment that AS at least was sending mixed messages, complaining that BS was raised by YouTube and video games, yet buying him a gaming computer. DS's coworker said she too spoiled him, but was having difficulty handling him at the same time. There was probably such a great battle to win BS's support and opinion that the two parents could no longer see clearly enough to guide BS. They were more absorbed with the fight than the kid himself, though they were probably both convinced they were doing it all because they loved him.

I can see BS loving and hating each of his parents by turn, and I can see him being dependent on them and unable to peel away because he was so new to the work world, with only a summer of construction and 5 weeks at Walmart under his belt. With so much drama all around him through his life he probably started imagining a truly dramatic escape from it all.

It's just confusing to me then how KM got drawn into all of this.

oh absolutely all of the above! My husband was divorced and had 2 daughters before we married. He had custody of them at the time. Things got super messy ... it was horrible for all of us, not just the kids. Emotionally and financially, it broke us. If I ever find myself in a 12 day drunken stupor I could write a book! :D I actually considered going to law school, since our lawyer said it's hard to change the system unless you are part of the system (interestingly enough, she no longer did Family law after our case lol)

As for KM... I think it might be a case of hiding the family dysfunction, or maybe he was just more influenced by outside sources. My youngest is now 18, and my kids were all raised the same, yet they all have differences... 1 of my kids is more influenced by friends than others... 1 was more influenced at certain age (18ish), but is no longer, 1 is never influenced by friends it seems and is who he is and doesn't care what anyone thinks and will do his own thing and always has lol

I hope some day we will learn more about the dynamics that lead to all of this with both of the young men.
 
  • #837
  • #838
Completely agreed. I try to imagine what their conversations were, and why the killings suddenly stopped in BC if that's what they set out to do - kill people and then themselves. I keep wondering how they got the SUV badly stuck in mud in a field, on someones property, by Cold Lake in the middle of daylight.. and clearly in plain sight. The guy that helped them wasn't even the first one to see them out there, his brothers wife noticed them and the SUV could be seen from their yard. What the heck were they doing out there in an open field? The property owner could've called the police, they were out there for a while. It had been mentioned that maybe they were going to burn the vehicle out there, but apparently they sat out there, stuck, for almost two hours. And after getting pulled out, they went on to travel another two provinces instead of ditching/burning the vehicle somewhere else nearby if that's what they intended to do. None of it makes any sense.

I actually get the chills when I think about what these two must have talked about and when I think of the intensity of the energy between them in their final moments.
 
  • #839
RSBM - I thought you may have something to say about this, I guess I should have kept reading.

I think it's obvious that no matter what happened in this case, it had an effect on Bryer, it had to have, right?

Pretty much. There's a lot of missing information but there's enough to piece a good deal of it together, IMO. Plus you know in these types of situations, 90+% of what really happened is under the radar of the legal system, other people they knew, etc. because that's how it always goes.

But, what we can determine from the limited information is, in short, depressing af. We can say there is a high likelihood from the evidence we know that Bryer grew up in an unstable home environment for at least a large part of his childhood, that he was likely exposed to domestic violence (BTW domestic violence doesn't have to be physical, threats and intimidating and really bad arguments count too) from a young age, and had some very traumatic experiences such as most likely seeing his dad get arrested on both his birthday and Christmas of the same year when he was 8 (according to court records). After that he lost contact with his dad for almost a decade, and shortly after getting back into contact, his dad became long-term homeless while suffering from mental illness and being repeatedly arrested. Apparently even for up to a decade after the divorce, either the fallout of that situation or whatever other situations were going on caused him to be so uncomfortable at home that he even kept a huge buffer zone between his best friend who he was "inseparable" from and his family, and parents around town (and remember, this is a small town where gossip gets around) sort of understood that he came over so much because he didn't want to be at home, and at least one neighbor described his home life as being terrible.

As a result of whatever happened (and I think whatever happened is probably way worse than we currently know, because it pretty much always is in these types of situations) he developed issues with anger and likely severe depression, maybe even anxiety as well (ie. being extremely introverted, not having a driver's license). He went from a happy-looking kid to a teenager that looked like he was dead inside, engaged in threatening and disturbing behavior towards his peers and possibly mom that seems to directly mirror the behavior his dad was alleged to engage in, and had a bunch of maladaptive social skills that created a vicious cycle of isolation --> mental illness --> acting out --> more isolation --> more mental illness --> etc. And there was a whole internet out there full of negative influences to enforce these thought patterns (controversial to say that I'm sure). There were warning signs for years, some of them about as obvious as you can get (gun in mouth picture) that indicated that on some level he wanted someone to notice and do something. But they most likely were never recognized because of the compartmentalization of his life, where his family and friends had no access to each other. The friends who were aware of this stuff thought it was just a joke or trolling, or just chose to distance themselves from him. He was likely in an incredible amount of emotional pain for years with seemingly no way out (at least 6 or 7 years based on when he first started making suicide threats). Because severe depression can cloud judgment, reduce empathy, and numb emotions, he eventually snapped. And here we are with another totally preventable tragedy. All JMO.

So...I know we can't always agree on a lot, but we can all agree on that much so far and close the chapter on that, right? And remember, this is just based on a limited set of information...the full story is generally always worse in these kinds of things....

Also another random thing I thought of...it's been remarked on that Bryer looked kind of underweight. I know some people are just like that, but also, severe depression can cause a loss of appetite, so I wonder if that was another sign that went overlooked....

I just wonder what happened to Kam. We haven't been discussing him nearly as much because there's so much less information, but I feel like something had to have happened (not necessarily from his family, as we have no evidence of that so far, but from somewhere). People have remarked on how he had such a nice smile -- how do you go from that to killing three people and yourself? That doesn't happen overnight. I'm feeling like it was probably a similar story to Bryer in some ways and that's why they were so bonded. Based on what his Walmart coworker said, that he seemed uncomfortable talking to anyone except Bryer, I'm pretty sure he had social anxiety at least. I wonder if we will ever know.
 
  • #840
The murders of Chynna and Lucas occurred 465 km away from where the burned truck was found.
If the truck was disabled, how did Bryer and Kam get to the location of the double murder and back again?

If the suspects dropped a tree on the roof of their truck before the murders of Chynna and Lucas, then there is a motive for murder, they saw the opportunity to steal a different vehicle, a nice big van to sleep in.

The damage to the roof alone wouldn't disable the truck; they could drive it another 465 kms. Awkward, but do-able.

The question remains though, was there additional damage to the frame of the truck that would make it not driveable?

It appears that the truck was driveable because if the damage didn't occur in the fire, per @gigitty, (Thread 13, #2911) then the damage had to have been done somewhere else, before the fire. Could it go 465km? I'm hoping our resident firefighter-auto mechanic will offer his opinion.

(Sorry to pop in here with a change of subject, but it does possibly speak to motive.) jmo
 
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